458WinMag vs 500 NE Death Match!!!

[CZDiesel]

Ok Ok settle down now, I’ll have order in this court lol This isn’t about energy, knock down power, or penetration but recoil! A great friend of mine stopped by yesterday and we took a 11.6lb 500 NE with 23-1/2” bbls and my 9lb 458WinMag 22” bbl, both open sights, to the range purposely to see which one was more punishing to the shooter, kicked harder and had more muzzle flip…
Both rifles were fitted with Pachmary Decelerator pads. The 500 had a 1-1/4” and the 458 a 1”. The 500 was shooting 570gr Federal Premium Safari A-Frames at 2100ftps and the 458 was shooting 500gr Hornady DGX at 2150ftps.
We shot them one round at a time back to back within seconds of each other. The 458 first then the 500. Him first, then me and then back to him and back to me and then we talked about our thoughts on the recoil of the two rifles and formed a subjective opinion on the results…

Both of us agreed to a point on this! Both the 500 and the 458 had recoiled close to each other but the 458 was much quicker in the delivery giving a harder slap to the shoulder! The 500, guessing due to its stock design, had more muzzle lift where the 458 hit more straight back…
Although both were very close we both came away feeling the 458WinMag had more felt recoil…

Our guess is that the 65,000psi 458 in the over 2-1/2lb lighter rifle just transferred the recoil energy so much faster that the 50,000psi 500 NE is where the difference lies? I can say this though! I went into this comparison knowing my 458 but truly afraid of the 500! I came out of it seeing how the 500 and the stopper it is, is a very manageable rifle with enough practice and familiarity

Now I’d like to try it again at some point to see if mounting my Leupold 1-6 on Tally rings and bases which should bring the weight of the 458 to over 10lbs would change much? I know it will but I bet not by a lot!!!

One last thing! The 458 loaded with 575gr Super Hard Cast shot at 2000fps was a whole new level!!! It was noticeably more violent than the 570gr 500 NE or the 500gr 458WinMag! It rattled you!!!

 

[MRBlack]

I have never found my Heym 88B in 500NE unmanageable, but I’ve never fired a 416 or 458. It seems like the 375 H&H pairs the best with it. I like to think of them as a precision tool and a problem solver. Would love to get my hands on a 416 or 458 Lott at some point though. Thanks for the comparison!

 

[CZDiesel]

I have never found my Heym 88B in 500NE unmanageable, but I’ve never fired a 416 or 458. It seems like the 375 H&H pairs the best with it. I like to think of them as a precision tool and a problem solver. Would love to get my hands on a 416 or 458 Lott at some point though. Thanks for the comparison!

I think you are spot on! The “Precision Tool” and the “Problem Solver” perfect analogy!
That how I feel with my 375 and 458!

 

[Luvthunt]

I think you are spot on! The “Precision Tool” and the “Problem Solver” perfect analogy!
That how I feel with my 375 and 458!

Yes, good way to think about your combo as many prior hunters particularly pro ivory hunters of the past did also.

 

[Riflecrank]

If your .458 WIN MAG is operating at 65,000 psi with 500-gr DGX at 2150 fps, there is something wrong with your data or your rifle.

The Hornady 500-gr DGX factory load at 2140 fps is SAAMI ammo with pressure of 60,000 psi or less,
in a SAAMI .458 WIN MAG rifle.
I have fired that ammo in at least a half dozen different .458 WIN MAG rifles.
Both DGX and DGS, 5 to 10 shots chronographed for each bullet type and rifle.
Average MV for all of them is very close to 2140 fps.
Hornady got something right with that ammo.

"Death Match." Too funny !
500 NE that is 2.5 pounds heavier and has a thicker recoil pad of same type as on the .458 WIN MAG: DUH !

 

[CZDiesel]

If your .458 WIN MAG is operating at 65,000 psi with 500-gr DGX at 2150 fps, there is something wrong with your data or your rifle.

The Hornady 500-gr DGX factory load at 2140 fps is SAAMI ammo with pressure of 60,000 psi or less,
in a SAAMI .458 WIN MAG rifle.
I have fired that ammo in at least a half dozen different .458 WIN MAG rifles.
Both DGX and DGS, 5 to 10 shots chronographed for each bullet type and rifle.
Average MV for all of them is very close to 2140 fps.
Hornady got something right with that ammo.

"Death Match." Too funny !
500 NE that is 2.5 pounds heavier and has a thicker recoil pad of same type as on the .458 WIN MAG: DUH !

Lighten up Francis! Not ment to be so literal! Just guessed at the pressures but was stating that one is a high pressure cartridge and one a low pressure!
And NOOOOOO! Not DUH! I was and I’d bet many here who have not shot a 500 NE expected it to be a lot more to handle and kicked way harder! Even recoil tables show a 12lb 500 NE at 75ftlbs of recoil and a 9lb 458 at only 62!
That’s why I posted to show what the results we felt were, some might like to read it and find it informative…

 

[Rare Breed]

Ok Ok settle down now, I’ll have order in this court lol This isn’t about energy, knock down power, or penetration but recoil! A great friend of mine stopped by yesterday and we took a 11.6lb 500 NE with 23-1/2” bbls and my 9lb 458WinMag 22” bbl, both open sights, to the range purposely to see which one was more punishing to the shooter, kicked harder and had more muzzle flip…
Both rifles were fitted with Pachmary Decelerator pads. The 500 had a 1-1/4” and the 458 a 1”. The 500 was shooting 570gr Federal Premium Safari A-Frames at 2100ftps and the 458 was shooting 500gr Hornady DGX at 2150ftps.
We shot them one round at a time back to back within seconds of each other. The 458 first then the 500. Him first, then me and then back to him and back to me and then we talked about our thoughts on the recoil of the two rifles and formed a subjective opinion on the results…

Both of us agreed to a point on this! Both the 500 and the 458 had recoiled close to each other but the 458 was much quicker in the delivery giving a harder slap to the shoulder! The 500, guessing due to its stock design, had more muzzle lift where the 458 hit more straight back…
Although both were very close we both came away feeling the 458WinMag had more felt recoil…

Our guess is that the 65,000psi 458 in the over 2-1/2lb lighter rifle just transferred the recoil energy so much faster that the 50,000psi 500 NE is where the difference lies? I can say this though! I went into this comparison knowing my 458 but truly afraid of the 500! I came out of it seeing how the 500 and the stopper it is, is a very manageable rifle with enough practice and familiarity

Now I’d like to try it again at some point to see if mounting my Leupold 1-6 on Tally rings and bases which should bring the weight of the 458 to over 10lbs would change much? I know it will but I bet not by a lot!!!

One last thing! The 458 loaded with 575gr Super Hard Cast shot at 2000fps was a whole new level!!! It was noticeably more violent than the 570gr 500 NE or the 500gr 458WinMag! It rattled you!!!

Nicely done!!! Red Dot sights only belong on 470-500 NE period just my POV only. Given the stopping power of a 500 NE this is why I have never owned a very well respected 458. Also, to your point you did not discuss powder to get to your 2150 FPS. Given my reloading experience type of powder matters GREATLY!!! For my 500 NE I got 2150 FPS with 80 grains IMR versus H4831SC at 112 with the former being a pussy cat and the latter hell yet both delivered the same 2150 FPS

 

[Rare Breed]

IMR3031

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Lighten up Francis! Not ment to be so literal! Just guessed at the pressures but was stating that one is a high pressure cartridge and one a low pressure!
And NOOOOOO! Not DUH! I was and I’d bet many here who have not shot a 500 NE expected it to be a lot more to handle and kicked way harder! Even recoil tables show a 12lb 500 NE at 75ftlbs of recoil and a 9lb 458 at only 62!
That’s why I posted to show what the results we felt were, some might like to read it and find it informative…

Okay guys... Let's do the math so that your information will be correct. Here's a recoil table I've posted on AH.

Adding to the 458 Win and 500 NE rows rifle weight of 9 lb for both and 12 lb for the 500 NE reveals this:

A 9 lb 458 Win develops recoil of 71 lbs.
A 12 lb 500 NE develops recoil of 79.62 lbs

ShootersCalculator.com | Recoil Calculator

An online calculator that calculates the recoil energy, impulse, and velocity of a firearm according to the firearm's weight, powder charge, bullet weight, and bullet muzzle velocity.

shooterscalculator.com

 

[Riflecrank]

Assuming load data is correct, as calculated above to give this:

A 9 lb 458 Win develops recoil of 71 ft-lbs @ 22.69 fps (500-gr bullet, 70-gr powder, 2150 fps MV)
A 12 lb 500 NE develops recoil of 79.62 ft-lbs @ 20.66 fps (570-gr bullet, 101-gr powder, 2150 fps MV)

Any perceptible difference in felt recoil must surely be due to stock fit, recoil pad, or shooter psyche.

 

[CZDiesel]

Assuming load data is correct, as calculated above to give this:

A 9 lb 458 Win develops recoil of 71 ft-lbs @ 22.69 fps (500-gr bullet, 70-gr powder, 2150 fps MV)
A 12 lb 500 NE develops recoil of 79.62 ft-lbs @ 20.66 fps (570-gr bullet, 101-gr powder, 2150 fps MV)

Any perceptible difference in felt recoil must surely be due to stock fit, recoil pad, or shooter psyche.

You obviously did not read the original post? It’s NOT a 12lb 500 NE! It’s a 11.6lb rifle!
Being that @Mark A Ouellette graph shows a 11.5lb 500 NE at 82ftlbs of energy! And since there is no table for a 9lb 458 I’ll default to Chuck Hawks showing it at 62lbs

Rifle Recoil Table

Either way the thread was just for fun so others who have never shot a 500 NE could get some idea as to what to expect with recoil! @Riflecrank next time I’ll be sure to break out my algebraic calculator and cross examine its equations to whatever load data and table you seem to be suitable to post a light hearted thread

 

[Rare Breed]

Okay guys... Let's do the math so that your information will be correct. Here's a recoil table I've posted on AH.

View attachment 674669

Adding to the 458 Win and 500 NE rows rifle weight of 9 lb for both and 12 lb for the 500 NE reveals this:

View attachment 674673

A 9 lb 458 Win develops recoil of 71 lbs.
A 12 lb 500 NE develops recoil of 79.62 lbs

ShootersCalculator.com | Recoil Calculator

An online calculator that calculates the recoil energy, impulse, and velocity of a firearm according to the firearm's weight, powder charge, bullet weight, and bullet muzzle velocity.

shooterscalculator.com

Mark you are a genious I just want to make sure people understand the difference in recoil different powders have to achieve a targeted FPS. This has always been the key for me my friend

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

You obviously did not read the original post? It’s NOT a 12lb 500 NE! It’s a 11.6lb rifle!
Being that @Mark A Ouellette graph shows a 11.5lb 500 NE at 82ftlbs of energy! And since there is no table for a 9lb 458 I’ll default to Chuck Hawks showing it at 62lbs

Rifle Recoil Table

Either way the thread was just for fun so others who have never shot a 500 NE could get some idea as to what to expect with recoil! @Riflecrank next time I’ll be sure to break out my algebraic calculator and cross examine its equations to whatever load data and table you seem to be suitable to post a light hearted thread

No good deed goes unpunished....
I read well written books, articles, and posts very precisely. I quoted your last post rather than try to figure out what you were thinking. I do believe my methodology is grammatically correct.

Lighten up Francis! Not ment to be so literal! Just guessed at the pressures but was stating that one is a high pressure cartridge and one a low pressure!
And NOOOOOO! Not DUH! I was and I’d bet many here who have not shot a 500 NE expected it to be a lot more to handle and kicked way harder! Even recoil tables show a 12lb 500 NE at 75ftlbs of recoil and a 9lb 458 at only 62!
That’s why I posted to show what the results we felt were, some might like to read it and find it informative…

When I read your post directly above, I knew your numbers were off, way off. It happens to all of us one way or another... That is why I and others have posted on AH recoil tables and our references.

Chuck Hawks is a good researcher and writer whose work I've enjoyed.
For Chuck's 9 lb .458 Win data, he is wrong. It was problably written long before easy to use online recoil calculators were available. Not disrespecting Chuck at all!

Have a nice day!

 

[Denvir Tire]

Lighten up Francis! Not ment to be so literal! Just guessed at the pressures but was stating that one is a high pressure cartridge and one a low pressure!
And NOOOOOO! Not DUH! I was and I’d bet many here who have not shot a 500 NE expected it to be a lot more to handle and kicked way harder! Even recoil tables show a 12lb 500 NE at 75ftlbs of recoil and a 9lb 458 at only 62!
That’s why I posted to show what the results we felt were, some might like to read it and find it informative…

Is that a "Stripes" reference??

 

[Northern Shooter]

Just goes to show that despite the 458 WM's reputation on this forum as being a "pea-shooter" it really needs to be in an appropriately weighted rifle to tame that recoil.

I think a 458WM should weigh 10.0lbs minimum which would reduce that recoil to ~64 ft-lbs.

My svelte 458WM weighs 8.6lbs and produces a healthy ~74 ft-lbs.

Kevin Robertson stated that anything above 50 ft-lbs of recoil is too high for the average shooter to master.

 

[Riflecrank]

Stripes was filmed at Fort Knox, KY, heh-heh-heh.

Of course I read every word of the Original Post.
How do you think I noted the offensive claim of 65,000 psi for a mere 2150 fps with 500-grainer
from the SAAMI/CIP .458 WIN MAG ???

Mark A Ouellette did an excellent exposition.
I was accepting the 12 pounds instead of 11.6 pounds for the 500 NE 3" so as to give a little buffer to
OP's "feelings."
Going with 11.6 pounds would make the 500 NE recoil numbers higher by a wee bit.

Northern shooter summed it up well.
You can build a .458 WIN MAG as light as 7-1/4 pounds, yet easily get it up 10 pounds field ready.
Even easier if the rifle's bare weight is the more usual 8 to 9 pounds.
A 10-pound .458 WIN MAG shooter is nice.

 

[Riflecrank]

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7255723098320768299

 

[CZDiesel]

You guys are hilarious

 

[coreydb]

I guess when you get past the pain of the recoil you got it made anyway.......I'm stuck at .375H&H

 

[CZDiesel]

I guess when you get past the pain of the recoil you got it made anyway.......I'm stuck at .375H&H

I can tell you that I’m out past the 458!