500/416 NE Safari Express

[Boendoes]

Hi There
I have a 500/416 NE in Krieghoff and I am having a really tough time getting the rifle to regulate. 6 inches right and down in 70 yards ? Any AH fanatics with similar challenges ? They say that it inly regulates with factory WR ammo but with 410gr Woodleighs, although it is better I want to reload myself ... Thank for the help in advance !

 

[AZDAVE]

Welcome to the site. What kind of groups do you get with the WR ammo? Do you get a tight two or three shot group from each barrel? What is the spread between the barrels with the loads you are shooting? Are your shoot crossing? Do you have access to a chronograph to get a speed from the factory ammo? Double can be very frustrating to get reloads to regulate. Getting the speed close will get you in the ballpark and then comes the fine tuning. Do you have a copy of Grahm Wrights book on shooting English double. It has a great section on working up loads. If you can post a pic of where you right barrel hits vs the left it will help in getting some advice on whether to speed or slow down you loads. I hope all my rattling on makes sense. Also how many shots are you shooting during each session?

 

[CAustin]

Theo not sure if I previously welcomed you to AH. I'm sure there are a couple of members who can offer advice.

 

[matt85]

I have/had a 500/416 NE made by Searcy and before I sent it back to Searcy for chamber work, I spent some time doing load development. my rifle was regulated with Barnes 400gr TSX at 2300fps and I was able to duplicate this very well with IMR 4350 in my own hand loads. im a big fan of this cartridge as a general purpose double rifle cartridge!

as far as getting your own rifle to regulate. you say Krieghoff told you the regulating load used the 410gr Woodleigh bullet? what speeds have you tried with this bullet? what powders have you tried so far?

I might be able to help you but I will need all the details of loads you have tried.

-matt

 

[Boendoes]

Hallo @matt85 and @AZDAVE
Thank you very much for your advice this far, sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I was waiting for some factory ammo, WR 410gr and this is the grouping I got yesterday (see photo below), recommended by Krieghoff (if you are lucky enough that they ever get back to you). I am still waiting for the regulation data for this specific rifle, since I asked the question to a Ralph at SCI in January. During the recent #huntex2016 (hunting and gun show) in South Africa most gun makers rolled their eyes when I mentioned 500/416 NE ..... it seems if the powder in South Africa is not burning at slow enough rate to do propper load development for this specific caliber. Anyway this is what I got from the 410gr WR softnose ammo. Speed is around 2260ft/s (it was a nice and cool day). 70 yards over a stick, I was not in my benchrest mood since I had quite a few large calibers to shoot. First shot (right barrel) on target, 2nd shot (left barrel), I would say 2 inches low and 4 inches right. So the barrels do cross :-( ... Thanks again for you willingnes to help.

 

[matt85]

ive found IMR 4350 to work very well in this cartridge. the "equivalent" in SA is S365 according to the charts ive found.

if memory serves me right then its "higher velocity brings the impacts together" while "lower velocity separates the impacts". so in your case with the Woodleigh bullet, you would need to slow the bullet down to bring the right and left barrels impacts closer together. try a velocity closer to 2150fps-2200fps which "should" bring the group together a little better.

another option would be to try a different bullet. my rifle is regulated for Barnes bullets and will NOT shoot Woodleigh or Swift bullets to proper regulation. my guess is that the long 400gr TSX is just too different from the shorter lead bullets. if i were you id try some different bullets such as Swift or even mono-metal bullets like Barnes or Peregrine over S365.

-matt

 

[Heym 88]

Matt you are correct, If he's crossing than the velocity is too fast. The barrels don't have time to recoil away from each other before the bullet exits the barrel.

 

[AZDAVE]

As Matt and Heym 88 have pointed out the velocity is too high. i Ran some numbers in my Quick load program and this will give you a ball park to start from.
Your S361 and 400gr Barnes 91 gr will get in the 2150 fps range. 93gr- 2200 fps and 95gr 2250.
S385 87gr-2150fps 89gr- 2200fps 91, 2250fps

Reccommend that you try both powders, The case fill is between 86-91%. Most have around 95% complete burn of powder in a 24in barrel.

Also like Matt pointed out try several different bullets. I have loaded for 7 different doubles over the last few years and I was able to get 5 to regulate with most any bullet that was in the same weight range and any powder that kept pressure in the correct range for speed of bullet. But the other two were very different animals. They liked 1 powder and one type solid and 1 softs. IE CEB solids and swift Aframe. The other was barnes banded solid and woodleigh soft. There is a little bit science, little bit of vodoo/witchcraft, and a health dose of good luck in getting doubles right on the money. Look forward to seeing what loads works best for your double.

 

[Boendoes]

Thank you gentelmen (@AZDAVE, @Heym 88, @matt85 ), appreciate you assistance. I will go back to the drawing board and start from scrath ..... @AZDAVE your quote above will go a long way

"There is a little bit science, little bit of vodoo/witchcraft, and a health dose of good luck in getting doubles right on the money. Look forward to seeing what loads works best for your double." !

 

[IvW]

70 yards may be a bit far. Unless otherwise ordered, it should regulate at 55 yards much better than 70 yards.

 

[Jimbob]

70 yards may be a bit far. Unless otherwise ordered, it should regulate at 55 yards much better than 70 yards.

True but the barrels shouldn't be crossing full stop.

 

[geoff rath]

AZDAVE's comment on Graeme Wright's book is spot on. I have zero experience with doubles, but from talking to Geoff Woodleigh, G W is the "go to" reference for them. Good luck. I want to "build" a Ruger No 1 in 500/416, but then I'm a bit sick in the head, seeing I have another on the way in 9.3X64 Brenneke....

 

[geoff rath]

Oops! Just "discovered" that Norma produce ammo using the 450 grain Woodleigh bullets..... That made my day....

 

[bassasdaindia]

70 yards may be a bit far. Unless otherwise ordered, it should regulate at 55 yards much better than 70 yards.

I agree with this comment , I would regulate at 50m

 

[SHIELD134]

I regulated my Blaser 500/416 with 410 gr woodLeighs and had fantastic results with H1000. They chrono'd somewhere around 2300, I don't remember the exact speed. The H1000 also filled the casing up to where no filler was needed. That round worked flawless in 2014 on my last trip to Africa and will be going back over in May 2018. Good luck with your rifle!

 

[IvW]

@Boendoes did you ever get this sorted?

 

[MMAL]

I am sending my kreighoff back to them to regulate it with swift a-frames. They will not do it with hand loads but will with hemdershot loaded ammo. I figure I can get a chrono from them when they reregulated it and then handload from there or continue to buy from hendershot. The cost is @350 if I remember correctly. It might be even less. Might be the way to go.

 

[bill73]

I am sending my kreighoff back to them to regulate it with swift a-frames. They will not do it with hand loads but will with hemdershot loaded ammo. I figure I can get a chrono from them when they reregulated it and then handload from there or continue to buy from hendershot. The cost is @350 if I remember correctly. It might be even less. Might be the way to go.

I have a Krieghoff in 500/416,the factory load data is 108 gr of H1000 with Woodleigh 410's soft & solid,in my rifle this load crossed but shot fine otherwise,you can adjust your load up or down a grain & you should be fine,I will mention that crossing is not a cardinal sin,I was told by the owner of a prestigious rifle company in Germany that some guns for the European market were regulated that way & in fact I had a gun that shot fine all the way to 100 yrds but crossed ,because the gun was sold to me here in the USA? they re-regulated it for me under warranty to print side by side & not cross,I had this done simply for re-sale if & when I sell it.

 

[IvW]

I have a Krieghoff in 500/416,the factory load data is 108 gr of H1000 with Woodleigh 410's soft & solid,in my rifle this load crossed but shot fine otherwise,you can adjust your load up or down a grain & you should be fine,I will mention that crossing is not a cardinal sin,I was told by the owner of a prestigious rifle company in Germany that some guns for the European market were regulated that way & in fact I had a gun that shot fine all the way to 100 yrds but crossed ,because the gun was sold to me here in the USA? they re-regulated it for me under warranty to print side by side & not cross,I had this done simply for re-sale if & when I sell it.

@bill73 What is the speed you get with that load?

 

[bill73]

@bill73 What is the speed you get with that load?

Right around 2300fps.