A Case of Use Enough Gun?

[ftrovato]

@DG870
Sounds like your friend and I would get in fine and dandy with our hate of the 243.
Bob

I've taken several whitetails cleanly with the 243 and Barnes copper bullets. Might I add I never lost a deer with the 243 either.
In spite of that and over a lifetime of hunting I've come to the conclusion that it's no more than a good varmint cartridge. No offense to other members but I've seen to many deer lost with the 243 for a whole host of reasons.
No need to drag that dead horse out and beat it anymore to make a point.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

As I read this, I have two thoughts:

The first is that I find it "interesting" that while talking about the .243 as "adequate" for Red Deer in Scotland, no mention is made that in addition to the calibre, there exists alongside it also a minimum for bullet weight and energy.

Speaking of energy, that same Red Deer in Germany, and in Poland, and probably in other places I haven't been fortunate enough to hunt yet, requires a minimum of 6.5mm with an energy of 2000 Joules at 100 meters. You're .243 isn't going to make that. Curiously, my 6.5 MS doesn't make that with its normal 160 grain bullet, but will with a 140 grain. The difference in that case has less to do with the bullet weight than it does the difference between a spitzer bullet and a round nose bullet. The better ballistic coefficient allows the lighter bullet to retain its speed over the distance, so it still has the required (just barely) energy 100m out.

My second thought relates to "reloading after shooting". And this is where previous experience worked against me. I was using a rifle borrowed from my guide for boar at night, borrowed because he had a thermal sight and I did not. He also had a nice suppressor. The thing is, the pistol grip on that borrowed rifle felt an awful lot like the grip on so many of the, shall we say, "self loading" weapons I had used in the past, and much to my guide's chagrin, I neglected to work the bolt. This was partially because of the muscle memory in the grip design, and partially because I actually heard the impact of the shot. I knew the bullet went where I wanted it to go. Guide was upset because the pig was running (and it didn't help that he was instructing me in Polish), but in the time it took to "remember" the bolt, the pig made it only 30 meters or so and fell over. It all worked out in the end, and that's the last time I've forgotten to "work the bolt".


View attachment 655750

@SaintPanzer
I don't always work the bolt after firing a shot, depends on the occasion.
When I shot my black wildebeest in Namibia he was quartering away. I knew I wanted the bullet to come out the offside shoulder and needed to place the shit near the last rub on the near side.
I told my PH where I was going to hit him and he said fine take the shot..
Short story he went around 20 yards and down for the count. At the shit my PH said don't worry about reloading and I told him I had no intention of it.
Knowing your gear and the ability to call your shot is a big help
If you bullet doesn't go where you want you need to analyse why. Poor hold, bad trigger squeeze, excited, whatever and work on your shooting techniques.

Just my opinion.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I am fighting upstream on some of this, but truly believe bullet diameter and weight is too heavily relied upon by some, when faster TINY bullets can be stone cold killers. I have a .22/6mm (.224 TTH) that I would feel comfortable shooting any whitetail or mule deer with out to 200 yards or so with when loaded with .55 gr. TTSX. Same with .224 Weatherby. I had a .240 Weatherby that I was also quite comfortable with. These fast and light projectiles are poor choices where any brush may come into play. However, many very proficient hunters/shooters like to use them/similar chamberings and are deadly with them.

I am completely with you that I like two holes for every time I pull the trigger. I have hunted places so thick that if the deer ran 20 yards off the road/sendero that it made for a mess at times.

I think the .243 Win. Is not a great choice for deer, but the .243 Catbird, for example, is a solid choice (with proper bullet). Again, it goes against the grain, but if using a .243 Win for deer, I would even go with lighter bullets and go for the added speed (without getting into a SD discussion).

I got a .30-.378 when I was 18 and killed a lot of animals with it. I still hunt quite often with a .340 Weatherby. My go to rifles are in .300 Jarrett, simply because they are truly 1/4 MOA rifles, and are devastating. I have hunted with a lot of other rifles as well, but would not feel under gunned with .224 TTH for hunting in many situations. This being stated, I would rather hunt with the TTH or even .220 Swift than the .243 Win. with most factory ammunition offerings in .243. . My rambling insomnia induced point is don’t forget the speed component.

@RR 314
Speed means Diddley squat if'n the projectile ain't up to the job.
My 25 will send a 70gn bullet down range at close to 4,000fps.
Would I use it on deer because it's fast NO
Now a 100gn TTSX at 3,600fps on deer, definitely.
Would I use a 117gn SST out of a 250 Savage at 2,700fps on deer. Every day and twice on Sundays
Bullet construction not speed
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

My first Mannlicher stocked rifle was a Ruger 77 RSI in you guessed it 243 caliber. It was our poison on woodchucks and coyotes. I took 2 bucks with it both heart shots and both fell within sight of my stand. My issue with the 243 was that despite being heart shot neither bullet (remington 100 grain core locs) exited and there was no blood trail to either deer. Clearly the 243 is capable of killing deer however the performance was not what I required. I much prefer holes both entering and exiting, aiding if tracking is required. I then traded the 243 in for an RSI in 250-3000 savage which I have been wholly satisfied with. Just one old hunters experience. I will never use a 243 on big game again.

@MS 9x56
That why I like the Whelen, big hole in usually bigger hole out and NO tracking.
The little 250 Savage was killing deer very well thank you for years before Winchester convinced some people the 243 was better. Knowledgeable people laugh as they know it's not, that's why the little Savage is still hanging in there. There's still some people with functioning brains that know the 25s despite the small difference are better killers.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I believe the cure for the .243 woes is a longer scope. . .

@RR 314
The cure for the 243 is a slice of bread tied to the end of the barrel.
That way while the deer is eating it you can shoot his head off. That way no tracking, and no blood shot meat.
No scope needed just good camoflauge gear.
Save the scope money for a real hunting cartridge.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I find it interesting reading though all these posts how much disdain there is for the 243 Win. I reload for and shoot a 243 win, one of many rifles in my stable. While it is not my main rifle for big game (talking Mule Deer, Whitetail Deer and Pronghorn Antelope here in Wyoming), I do have a load I developed for it using the Barnes 80 gr TTSX that I have the utmost confidence in when hunting these size animals and smaller.
I have been a serious reloader for 45+ years and hunter for longer. I have not experienced the same as many have written about here with the 243 Win so rather than bashing the caliber, or any other for that manner, I will just continue successfully taking animals with it.

@WyoBull
As you point ot there's bullets and there's bullets.
The 80gn TTSX takes the 243 up to another level that cup and core just can't compete with.
Right bullet+ right place = dead game.
Bob

 

[MS 9x56]

The best thing to do for a 243 is to bore it out to a 308 or better yet a 358.

 

[Colt191145lover]

I find this all entertaining , especially with all the deer I've seen killed with 5.56.
Shot placement is king, bullet design after that.

P.S. Understand we are talking deer in the lower 48 state and not dangerous game in Alaska or other continents.

 

[Ridge Runner]

So the OP is: A Case of Use Enough Gun.

I, and as other members have chimed in with comments, opinions, observations, experiences, etc., etc.. Which some were amusing, some were beneficial, a few were just obnoxious.

Regardless I guess killing, IIRC, 5 or maybe it was 6+ deer with one shot, at an extremely unethically long range as the deer couldn't be seen, is Perhaps Too Much Gun.

The game wardens couldn't charge anyone with poaching even though this happened a week after the deer season ended. The game wardens couldn't prove who nor which of the number of guns fired the divastating fatal round.

One observer commented, What a waste of good deer meat.

Another member commented, Well what did you expect a 155mm Howitzer Anti Personel round fired 2 miles away would do when it landed directly in the center of those deer.

 

[Don458]

I find it interesting reading though all these posts how much disdain there is for the 243 Win. I reload for and shoot a 243 win, one of many rifles in my stable. While it is not my main rifle for big game (talking Mule Deer, Whitetail Deer and Pronghorn Antelope here in Wyoming), I do have a load I developed for it using the Barnes 80 gr TTSX that I have the utmost confidence in when hunting these size animals and smaller.
I have been a serious reloader for 45+ years and hunter for longer. I have not experienced the same as many have written about here with the 243 Win so rather than bashing the caliber, or any other for that manner, I will just continue successfully taking animals with it.

I have been reading this along and I think it is poor bullet and/or shot placement. I became a big fan of the 85 gr TSX 240WM. For Whitetail .

 

[RR 314]

@RR 314
Speed means Diddley squat if'n the projectile ain't up to the job.
My 25 will send a 70gn bullet down range at close to 4,000fps.
Would I use it on deer because it's fast NO
Now a 100gn TTSX at 3,600fps on deer, definitely.
Would I use a 117gn SST out of a 250 Savage at 2,700fps on deer. Every day and twice on Sundays
Bullet construction not speed
Bob

I agree. I referenced using Barnes bullets. I would consider that as a projectile "up to the job" at effectively any speed--well, over 1900 fps or so for most calibers. While there certainly may be a maximum velocity for a Barnes TSX/TTSX, I have not approached it. I would have to look at some of my data on my .257 STW, but from memory it is around 3850-3900 fps with 85 gr. TSX. I would not, and have not, hesitated to use it on deer. Although not popular, the same is true of the .224 TTH I referenced above. I do not own a .243 Winchester. I do not want a .243 Winchester. I do not like the .243 Winchester. I do not like them, Sam I am. However, in my opinion, of which many may seem to disagree, with proper bullets, range and shot placement, a .243 Winchester is an adequate rifle for most situations for deer sized game.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I find this all entertaining , especially with all the deer I've seen killed with 5.56.
Shot placement is king, bullet design after that.

P.S. Understand we are talking deer in the lower 48 state and not dangerous game in Alaska or other continents.

@Colt191145lover
Shot placement may be king BUT it's no good if'n the bullet doesn't git to the vitals.
Ive seen a 308 150gn Sierra game king hit a pig smack in the middle of the chest. All it did was create a saucer size superficial wound. The pig was covered in dried mud and the bullet just wasn't up to the task.
So all well and good having the perfect shot but no use if you have the wrong bullet .

Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

The best thing to do for a 243 is to bore it out to a 308 or better yet a 358.

@MS 9x56
Skip the middle man and go straight to the 358.
Bob