A Case of Use Enough Gun?

[Ontario Hunter]

You could float a boat in the gallons of whisky consumed while arguing over the merits of the 243 on deer. I had a good friend who had a lease that brought some guest hunters on that wouldn’t even say the word 243 - he called it that unmentionable rifle that was “the great crippler of western game”. He typically had hunters from the east used to 100 yard shots in heavy cover that weren’t prepared for the wide open spaces of the west. He tracked down too many poorly shot deer and it soured him on the 243. It was probably more the hunters shooting ability but he blamed the cartridge.

I had another friend who favored the 6mm Remington. We would argue the merits of his 100 grain bullets vs the 140’s of my 270. One day during deer season he called me to look at the deer he had shot. It was a big bodied mature mule deer doe. His first shot had hit one of the large bones in the shoulder and broke up, not entering the body cavity. The shoulder was broken badly but he said she could run on 3 legs as fast as she could on 4. He obviously recovered the deer but not a clean quick one shot kill.

I guess my point on the 243 is it is not a round that will fail every time or even a majority of the time but there is not a lot of margin of error. It will do the job if the shots are perfectly placed and no major bones are hit.

As to setting minimum calibers for deer one has to remember a mature Montana mule deer will weigh almost twice as much as a mature south Texas whitetail. That needs to be taken into account when establishing minimums.

Lack of a follow up shot is another issue in the op’s story. I have seen the problem with some folks I have hunted with. I don’t know if it is an American hunters problem but too often we miss the opportunity for a follow up shot because we don’t reload our rifles. We watch to see what if the animal goes down but we stand there with a fired case in our rifles. Watch some of the African hunting shows, how often is the PH reminding the hunter to RELOAD. My Dad taught me that if the animal is still on its feet or still has its head up to keep shooting. We hunted in areas with steep canyons and there were places you didn’t want to drag a deer out of.

Sorry for the long post, not much going on here today, this is a topic that has been argued about as long as I can remember and isn’t going away anytime soon.

More than lack of followup shot, the lack of followup period was a big mistake. I don't automatically blow random extra holes in an animal that's down and still has its head up. I will walk up close and put a well placed finishing shot in it. Usually high in the neck. I am ready to put a bullet in it if it gets up again and that has happened, twice that I can remember. It is rare.

This got me to thinking: how often am I reloaded after the animal goes down? Typically, I will take an "as it lays" photo before gutting it so I went back a couple of years checking these pics on my phone to see if the gun is loaded or not. It's easy to see because the striker on my Springfield is polished and protrudes from the blued bolt shroud when the gun is cocked. The results of this survey were a bit surprising. In almost all photos the rifle is cocked. BUT ... in almost all those photos the safety is OFF! Again, the position of wing safety is quite clear in most photos. If engaged, it's sticking up against the scope. Now, I KNOW I don't habitually walk around with my rifle loaded off safe, especially in rough country. Just does not happen! So what's going on? Once I have ascertained the animal is dead, I get it ready for the photo op or to be dressed. At that point my rifle is no longer needed so I will unload it to set it down ... at least remove the shell in the chamber. This is pretty much automatic, especially if I'm hunting with others. Only two photos can I clearly see the striker is in fired position. One is the nyala from 2021. We were just over a hundred yards up on the side of a near vertical canyon when I shot him. First shot off the sticks in the boiler room hit a bit low. The bull stumbled and went down but then quickly to his feet and heading into thick stuff. I got off the sticks and shot him on the run through the heart. My PH saw him go down in the thicket and flashing tail on the ground was a strong indication he was not getting up again. I'm guessing I chose not to have a loaded gun descending the face of the canyon in very heavy cover. Simply left the empty case in the chamber. The other photo was a culled impala we pulled from the vehicle several miles down the road for a scenic background photo op. Obviously, my gun was completely unloaded in the vehicle. This was the last animal on the last day of the safari so I had released the striker when I closed the bolt to put it away for the flight home.
The nyala was pulled out of the thick stuff for photo.

Shot from canyon wall on the right.

Of all the photos only one shows the rifle possibly ready to fire: the Barbary sheep of 2021 has the striker cocked and safety up and engaged. A photo of me holding the rifle with a culled springbuck from the same safari is the only photo clearly indicating I did not reload after the shot. Striker is fired position. But I shot that ram in the head. It's all I could see at 100 yards. No need to reload as he was obviously dead instantly.

 

[SaintPanzer]

As I read this, I have two thoughts:

The first is that I find it "interesting" that while talking about the .243 as "adequate" for Red Deer in Scotland, no mention is made that in addition to the calibre, there exists alongside it also a minimum for bullet weight and energy.

Speaking of energy, that same Red Deer in Germany, and in Poland, and probably in other places I haven't been fortunate enough to hunt yet, requires a minimum of 6.5mm with an energy of 2000 Joules at 100 meters. You're .243 isn't going to make that. Curiously, my 6.5 MS doesn't make that with its normal 160 grain bullet, but will with a 140 grain. The difference in that case has less to do with the bullet weight than it does the difference between a spitzer bullet and a round nose bullet. The better ballistic coefficient allows the lighter bullet to retain its speed over the distance, so it still has the required (just barely) energy 100m out.

My second thought relates to "reloading after shooting". And this is where previous experience worked against me. I was using a rifle borrowed from my guide for boar at night, borrowed because he had a thermal sight and I did not. He also had a nice suppressor. The thing is, the pistol grip on that borrowed rifle felt an awful lot like the grip on so many of the, shall we say, "self loading" weapons I had used in the past, and much to my guide's chagrin, I neglected to work the bolt. This was partially because of the muscle memory in the grip design, and partially because I actually heard the impact of the shot. I knew the bullet went where I wanted it to go. Guide was upset because the pig was running (and it didn't help that he was instructing me in Polish), but in the time it took to "remember" the bolt, the pig made it only 30 meters or so and fell over. It all worked out in the end, and that's the last time I've forgotten to "work the bolt".

 

[SFRanger7GP]

Since I wasn't there and I have not discussed this with the hunter, I will not judge his actions. I will just state my experience based thoughts. The .243 is capable of killing any whitetail deer (and game of similar size) if a proper bullet is put in the kill zone. When, where and how it dies can be the result of many contributing factors. Bad shots and bullet failures happen, and some animals need more convincing of their demise. Once the trigger is pulled and the animal is hit, it is game on! You have to finish it. Too many hunters become passive observers after they pull the trigger. Once I pull the trigger, I stay on it until the animal is down. Any attempt to get up, it gets another bullet. With few exceptions, I seldom wait for the animal to "go off and lay down". I go after it. We can all come up with "what ifs", but that is my standard process. As with anything in life, you have to be flexible to the situation, and by all means know when to say no to taking the shot. That can often be the toughest decision.

May we all have safe and enjoyable hunts this new year.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Warning: this may provoke a response from Bob Nelson...

Friend loses buck of a lifetime in Montana: Last week a friend passed up 7 bucks waiting for the monster seen on cameras. At last light, he appeared, but was surrounded by does. The only shot was a high chest shot, passing over the back of a smaller doe. He took the shot, hit the deer, and watched as it slowed from a run to a walk, then a stagger, and then a lay down in knee high grass, just short of the woods. It raised and lowered its head, and antlers could be seen, but the position for a shot was a guess. Range was about 160 yards. Rather than get its adrenalin up, they let it lay until morning and planned to find it right there.

That night it snowed. Deer had vanished in the night with any visible tracks or blood trail covered by snow. Searches were conducted even with outside help for three days. Buck not found. (no word whether dogs were employed) Son vowed to find the deer, father who shot it had to return to Graham, Texas. Buck was shot with a .243 Win.! Locals commented .243 was probably too light. Shot possibly went below spine, but shallow if at all into chest cavity proper. They all said that the same wound, but hit with a 300 Win mag, would probably have killed the buck, a massive, heavy racked 10 point in the best Montana tradition! "You can't kill them too dead" was the last comment offered. Shooter had elected not to take his 25'06 or 45-70...

Son called last night saying he found the deer...IT WAS STILL ALIVE, seen on two trail cams, limping around but eating. Will it make it though the winter? Should the son finish it off and him take "first blood" rights to the deer? Is it fair game, likely to be shot by another? Undecided.
The hunt was taken with the knowledge that this buck (+200 lbs) was the intended quarry. Comments?

@steve white
That's the result I would have expected from the 243. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but for deer even fallow I would have chosen the 25-06 every day of the week loaded with a 117gn SST .
Personally I think the son should finish the job dad started as it is now fair game and even the animal was seen feeding we don't know the extent of the wound or the condition of the animal.
Will it make it thru the winter only God knows.
Yes the 243 will kill deer (yes you did read correctly) but it wouldn't be my choice for anything bigger than coyote unless using something like a 95gn SST or 100 gn round nose, both good bigger medium game bullets that are up to the task and then only at ranges of less than 200 yards.
I don't condem the person on their shooting but as said use enough gun or more than enough gun. There's no such thing as to dead.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Sounds like an "I told you so" will be forthcoming from the venerable Aussie soon, lol.
Gotta say though, taking a marginal shot with a minimal caliber is definitely a recipe for this kind of outcome. If the son has a valid tag, the correct thing to do would be to focus on putting that buck in the salt. Finish the job. It's the right thing to do as a hunter, and the humane thing to do for the buck.

@Woodcarver
I would no say I told you so. I just hope he learnt from his experience and now uses enough gun for deer and other game.
It's a bitter pill to to swallow when you lose an animal. I have lost a couple. Not due to wrong calibre but to poor shooting and it's not a nice feeling.
Always use enough gun or more. Dang I even hunt pigs with the Whelen even tho my 25 is more than up to the task.
Bob

 

[steve white]

@Woodcarver
I would no say I told you so. I just hope he learnt from his experience and now uses enough gun for deer and other game.
It's a bitter pill to to swallow when you lose an animal. I have lost a couple. Not due to wrong calibre but to poor shooting and it's not a nice feeling.
Always use enough gun or more. Dang I even hunt pigs with the Whelen even tho my 25 is more than up to the task.
Bob

Well, you went easier on the hunter than expected...thanks. I just wish my brother in law would go that easy on the rest of us when the Cowboys lose--especially to the Eagles (his favorite). I thought he never would let us up for air.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

243 was well regarded by the Scotts for stalking Red Deer, which generally are larger than white tail.
It’s also regarded as one of the best white tail cartridges, I read. That may be because of its recoil though for youth and what not, haven’t really read up on why.

@Certus
From what I have read and been told in some states especially where the ranges are longer and the wind is up the 25-06 and 257 Weatherby reign supreme.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Not fair to count the out the 243 as it is the bullet that creates the action So first question should be what bullet was used and was it loaded to what vel. Next question is there a significant difference in 24 vs 25 cal. and would most people agree that a 25 was too small.
Interesting subject. As always at least for the most it is not what you hit them with but where you hit them.

@Luvthunt
There's a BIG DIFFERENCE between the 24s and the 25s. The 257 Robert offers significant bullet weights advantage and velocity advantage over the 243. Then step up to the fast 25s like the 25-06 and the 257 Weatherby and the margin in the 25s favour increases even more.
For some reason the 25s kill out of all proportion for their size.
I would take a 25 over a 243 any day.
Dang even the little 25-20 is a good killer on big goats out to 100 yards with a chest shot. They just crumple.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

We had one deer hit with high back shot from a 270 go down like the hand of god hit it and then get up and run off.
I hit one high in the back with the 30-30 again went down like the hand of god hit it, I levered a second round and put a neck shot on him when he got up.

@Bandera
And as the saying goes, keep shooting until it is down and dusted. If'n it can bite or stomp you when you get close enough put another one in just to make sure.
People have been killed by dead animals.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

The near miss so far is that Bob Nelson hasn't chimed in yet to chide us all!! lol

@steve white
Read on my son, my new years resolution is to try and be nicer to 243 users. We will see how long I can last.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Well, you went easier on the hunter than expected...thanks. I just wish my brother in law would go that easy on the rest of us when the Cowboys lose--especially to the Eagles (his favorite). I thought he never would let us up for air.

@steve white
Following the DULL ARSE COWBOYS is akin to hunting with a 243. Not the wisest choice.
Now if'n it was the beloved GREEN BAY PACKERS you followed you would be following a REAL team not a bunch of floozies like the Dull Arses.
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Bob

 

[dchamp]

@steve white
Read on my son, my new years resolution is to try and be nicer to 243 users. We will see how long I can last.
Bob

I am glad to see you a little more sympathetic to those who like the 6mm/.243 caliber. I too like the 6mm/.243 bullets but I do like them for game under 100 lbs.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Use the biggest cartridge with the proper bullet.
.243 is marginal for poodles imo.

@Neophyte
I wouldn't even use one on an enraged field mouse. You may end up with a malled little finger when you tried to retrieve it.
Great for punching paper not so great for hunting
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I am glad to see you a little more sympathetic to those who like the 6mm/.243 caliber. I too like the 6mm/.243 bullets but I do like them for game under 100 lbs.

@dchamp
The biggest problem with the 243 in Australia isn't the cartridge it's the idiots that use it. Most think an 87 gn or lighter Varmit bullet is fine for bigger game like pigs and fallow deer.
They have had one lucky shot where the animal drops like a bag of shit then think hey this is great that's what I will use then wonder why it continually fails.
Loaded with a Nosler partition, a 95 gn SST or a nice 100gn round nose and used within it LIMITATIONS ( 200 yards and less) it will work reasonably well on bigger game. Problem is you cannot educate some people.
I used to load a mates 243 with 95gn SST and his kill rate went up. Problem was they looked like the 87gn VMax when loaded and despite showing him the box and the projectiles he kept saying, see told you those 87s work well.
When I stopped loading for him his kill rate dropped again and he couldn't understand why. He said he was using the same 87s I used..
You just can't tell some people. Some are as thick as two short planks.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@375Fox - I agree that all things being equal “Bigger is always Better”…. Will ask you this: If a Hunter can’t place a .243 bullet where he needs to at 160 yrds - how can he possibly handle a .300 Win mag? This shot was off it’s mark, maybe a .300mag makes a difference if it went in exactly the same place but a poor shot is often as bad or worse with a magnum caliber (they won’t admit they can’t handle it).

@HankBuck
I remember reading an article by a well known gu writer in the USA asking why men need a 300 or 338 win mag to hunt deer then give their kids something like a 257 Roberts to hunt the same deer. They then wonder why their kids kill deer better than dad.
He surmised that gun writer and the HE MAN attitude had a lot to with it. REAL MEN HUNT WITH MAGNUMS. They seem to forget they killed more deer with their smaller non magnum than they will admit.
Dang man I shot that deer with a 338 win mag at 150 yards, he only ran 40 yards then dropped. NO mention about his daughter dropping a ten pointer in the spot at 275 yards with her 257 Roberts.
Dang that big magnum does a great job tho.
Bob

 

[Ridge Runner]

No, I am 100% right and proved it with x-ray image and cross section. I have been butchering deer, hogs and cattle ever since I was a kid on the farm and am well aware of the anatomy of common animals. I said there is no non-vital area between the lungs and spine as is commonly believed by so many hunters. I suspect these hunters must drop their deer off at a butcher shop and not process them themselves. Ridge Runners deer for example, if he had processed it himself he would have easily seen the slug went above the spine. I did not say it was impossible a deer could survive a hit below the spine, crazy stuff happens. No one was talking about a gutshot, most would agree that is not considered the vitals above or below the spine. Deer can be resilient and have survived wounds that are hard to imagine, at times even to the vitals. That being said I wonder if the deer that was "in bad shape" two weeks later actually survived and didn't succumb to sepsis.

JFYI, @rokloc, I did butcher this deer myself. I have been skinning, gutting, and butchering my own deer and other game since I first learned to hunt and trap over 60 years ago.

The slug that went cleanly straight through went under the spine. Had the slug went above the spine the back straps would have been severed. I had a nice clean cut from just above the slug hole all the way to the rump on both sides.

The lungs deflated from being punctured by my knife as I cut and pulled membrane from the spine and by the splint spleen as I was pulling the chest entrails down and out of the chest cavity.

The photos below shows how close the spine is on deer.

The deer in the above photos were reported to Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency early or mid summer of 2024.

Although these deer were feeding and acting normal; I think we can all agree something is wrong with them. As of this posting I still haven't received any additional information from TWRA as to what is wrong with the deer.

Not sure if it can be seen on these photos. In one of the several other photos included in my report to TWRA the darker deer's right eye is fully covered by tics.

Looking at the lighter colored deer in the broadside photo and comparing it to my killed deer. My slug is in the area forward of the front rib, below the spine, behind the top of the shoulder.

My best guess on aging these deer is by the offspring following and staying close to them were well out of spots, putting these adults around +/- 2 years old.

 

[pilar]

JFYI, @rokloc, I did butcher this deer myself. I have been skinning, gutting, and butchering my own deer and other game since I first learned to hunt and trap over 60 years ago.

The slug that went cleanly straight through went under the spine. Had the slug went above the spine the back straps would have been severed. I had a nice clean cut from just above the slug hole all the way to the rump on both sides.

The lungs deflated from being punctured by my knife as I cut and pulled membrane from the spine and by the splint spleen as I was pulling the chest entrails down and out of the chest cavity.

The photos below shows how close the spine is on deer.

View attachment 655818View attachment 655819View attachment 655820

The deer in the above photos were reported to Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency early or mid summer of 2024.

Although these deer were feeding and acting normal; I think we can all agree something is wrong with them. As of this posting I still haven't received any additional information from TWRA as to what is wrong with the deer.

Not sure if it can be seen on these photos. In one of the several other photos included in my report to TWRA the darker deer's right eye is fully covered by tics.

Looking at the lighter colored deer in the broadside photo and comparing it to my killed deer. My slug is in the area forward of the front rib, below the spine, behind the top of the shoulder.

My best guess on aging these deer is by the offspring following and staying close to them were well out of spots, putting these adults around +/- 2 years old.

Those deer need a ivermectin block to kill the ticks and other parasites they carry
We medicate our deer herd twice a year on our little place here in Texas

 

[Ridge Runner]

@Ridge Runner I’d have shot that deer too, and 115 lbs is a good size doe especially for under two years old. I don’t think I’ve killed a Doe over 125lbs in Virginia regardless of age

As a senior sargent told me at the end of my first deer hunting day of my first hunting season at Fort Bragg, NC; "...small deer?....Where are you from?...We have German Shepherds....not horses and cows down here....".

Comparing Ohio (Northern) whitetail deer to the North Carolina Sandhill Area (Southern) whitetail deer sizes.

 

[deewayne2003]

As a senior sargent told me at the end of my first deer hunting day of my first hunting season at Fort Bragg, NC; "...small deer?....Where are you from?...We have German Shepherds....not horses and cows down here....".

Comparing Ohio (Northern) whitetail deer to the North Carolina Sandhill Area (Southern) whitetail deer sizes.

Yes, I’ve guided several guys from Karnes City and other south Texas areas on Oklahoma whitetail hunts.

They just couldn’t believe we had 140lbs+ doe and 200lbs+ bucks; my favorite quote….

“Wouldn’t have brought this .243 if I knew we were hunting Clydesdales!”

I guided several youth hunts where the kids brought.243’s and while they all made good shots, we had some long recovery issues because we never got exit wounds in thick brush and yes we were using various bonded bullets.

Hence why I believe serious deer rifles start in the .257Rob & 7mm-08 realm.

 

[RR 314]

Hence why I believe serious deer rifles start in the .257Rob & 7mm-08 realm.

I am fighting upstream on some of this, but truly believe bullet diameter and weight is too heavily relied upon by some, when faster TINY bullets can be stone cold killers. I have a .22/6mm (.224 TTH) that I would feel comfortable shooting any whitetail or mule deer with out to 200 yards or so with when loaded with .55 gr. TTSX. Same with .224 Weatherby. I had a .240 Weatherby that I was also quite comfortable with. These fast and light projectiles are poor choices where any brush may come into play. However, many very proficient hunters/shooters like to use them/similar chamberings and are deadly with them.

I am completely with you that I like two holes for every time I pull the trigger. I have hunted places so thick that if the deer ran 20 yards off the road/sendero that it made for a mess at times.

I think the .243 Win. Is not a great choice for deer, but the .243 Catbird, for example, is a solid choice (with proper bullet). Again, it goes against the grain, but if using a .243 Win for deer, I would even go with lighter bullets and go for the added speed (without getting into a SD discussion).

I got a .30-.378 when I was 18 and killed a lot of animals with it. I still hunt quite often with a .340 Weatherby. My go to rifles are in .300 Jarrett, simply because they are truly 1/4 MOA rifles, and are devastating. I have hunted with a lot of other rifles as well, but would not feel under gunned with .224 TTH for hunting in many situations. This being stated, I would rather hunt with the TTH or even .220 Swift than the .243 Win. with most factory ammunition offerings in .243. . My rambling insomnia induced point is don’t forget the speed component.