A Rifle Related Question For American Bear Hunters

[tigris115]

With the question of double rifles and lever rifles being popular in their respective regions, I think it's a historical/colonial legacy. Doubles were invented in Europe and really hit their stride when colonization of Africa and Asia was really going. The lever rifles were popular in NA during the times we were expanding out west. This is why lever-action rifles in elephant calibers are rarer than those for bolts/doubles. It's kinda like how with the exception of Japan, all the nations that drive on the left side of the road are colonies of Britain or Britain proper.

 

[leslie hetrick]

jack o,connors wife was fond of the 7x57 mauser.

 

[Major Khan]

As for a 30-06 dispatching large bears, it has been done quite often.

I had a friend who took care of a camp raiding brown bear with a 270 Winchester shooting a 150 grain bullet with one shot.

Also when I was planning a brown bear hunt and talking with the outfitter he told me to bring the rifle that I could shoot the most accurately. At the time I was shooting a 7mm Remington magnum which is slightly more powerful than the 06

Ah , the .270 Winchester . My client , Mr. Tom Bolack ( Governor of New Mexico at the time ) used a pre 64 Winchester Model 70 chambered in the aforementioned calibre to dispatch a 500 pound royal Bengal tiger with a single frontal heart shot , by employing a 130 grain Winchester Silver Tip soft point cartridge .

 

[Major Khan]

savage used to promote the 22 high power and 250/3000 for both bears and tigers!
makes the 06 look a lot better.
bruce.

Here is 1 which will boggle your mind , Bruce . My client in 1963 took this 500 pound male royal Bengal tiger in Darjeeling , West Bengal .

The rifle was a Savage Model 110 bolt rifle , chambered in ... .243 Winchester !
He used a single 105 grain soft point cartridge . This is the smallest rifle calibre which I have ever seen , to be successfully used on a royal Bengal tiger.

 

[Major Khan]

My one and only black bear was dispatched readily with one shot from my Remington 700 in .308 many years ago in Idaho.
When I lived in Sitka, they used to mention bears often on the radio, as in "hey folks, remember this is brown bear country, don't go out in the woods without your .30-06 or bigger". Local PSA! LOL.

Remington Model 700 bolt rifles are deadly accurate rifles , Sestoppelman .
1 of Kawshik's clients took this West Bengal forest panther with a single 175 grain Remington Core Lokt soft point cartridge , fired from a Remington Model 700 chambered in 7 mm Remington magnum .

 

[Major Khan]

With the question of double rifles and lever rifles being popular in their respective regions, I think it's a historical/colonial legacy. Doubles were invented in Europe and really hit their stride when colonization of Africa and Asia was really going. The lever rifles were popular in NA during the times we were expanding out west. This is why lever-action rifles in elephant calibers are rarer than those for bolts/doubles. It's kinda like how with the exception of Japan, all the nations that drive on the left side of the road are colonies of Britain or Britain proper.

Thank you so much for your insightful response , tigris115. I suppose that traditions have played a very large role in the choice of popular rifle configurations . It is sort of like how sports men from Great Britain prefer side by side shot guns , yet continental sports men from Germany and Italy ( to name a few ) favor the over under shot gun.

 

[bruce moulds]

Here is 1 which will boggle your mind , Bruce . My client in 1963 took this 500 pound male royal Bengal tiger in Darjeeling , West Bengal .
View attachment 336867
The rifle was a Savage Model 110 bolt rifle , chambered in ... .243 Winchester !
He used a single 105 grain soft point cartridge . This is the smallest rifle calibre which I have ever seen , to be successfully used on a royal Bengal tiger.

he is welcome to it.
bruce.

 

[sestoppelman]

Remington Model 700 bolt rifles are deadly accurate rifles , Sestoppelman .
1 of Kawshik's clients took this West Bengal forest panther with a single 175 grain Remington Core Lokt soft point cartridge , fired from a Remington Model 700 chambered in 7 mm Remington magnum .
View attachment 336870

The client is noted hunter and author Charles Askins Jr.

 

[Buckdog]

major
in my youth shall we say a few decades ago I did a lot of hunting and guiding in Alaska. I would trade my labor of camp work, assistant guiding (aka guiding) for hunting, whatever it took. I have seen many bears killed, by clients,I have killed some for me, some that were camp raiders, some that were charging, wounded ones and seen lots of guns used. the bears include all blacks, inland grizz and the coastal browns.
Every gun I ever saw used was a bolt action. Clients liked 300 win mags or 338 win mags. Alaskans guides at the time favored 338 with 375 close behind. the climate is harsh in Alaska it is wet, it is cold, the coast is salt water, bush pilots used to commonly put their rifles in wing scabbards so the guns had to be able to be used and abused and keep on tickin and cheap. and the locals and guides usually only had 1 rifle and it was used for everything.
My personal toy was a stainless rem 700 375 H&H low power scope and back up iron sights. I still have and cherish that 375. She stopped charging right now and the same for camp raiders and anything else she met. The only time she wasn't fully stoked with one in the pipe was when she was in a bush plane. It is wilderness and you are in their turf and on their menu and contrary to the thinking of many an idiot client 2mm of nylon tent doesn't protect you from a grizz! so that 375 slept right next to me in the tent fully stoked every guide did the same in camp or not loaded up and ready.

 

[1dirthawker]

Major Khan,

first, thanks for all your great stories and great information of a time gone by.

I have lived in alaska most of my adult life, hunted here and guided for bears (brown/grizzly) and have formed some opinions, i will try to convey them.

I have carried and used 338 win, 375 ruger, 45/70 marlin and a 450/400 double rifle on grizzly/brown bears. I have shot bears with all but the 450-400. I have seen clients shoot bears with 300 ultra mags, 338 ultra, 338 lapua, 458 winchester mag, 375 ruger, 375 h & h, 375 weatherby. the ONLY rifles that i thought did a poor job were the 300 ultra's. too fast, no penetration. multiple shots (more than 5 in some cases) were always required. they were using swift A frame bullets in every case.

the double rifle is largely ignored as stated many times before, cost, availability AND BLUED STEEL. when i guide brown bears, my rifle WILL BE COATED WITH SALTWATER EVERY DAY! getting off the boat, on a skiff, hunting, then returning, it will be coated with saltwater spray and likely be rained on almost every day. i cried a little every day when a hunter with a 375 h&h sako bolt rifle (blued/wood) got back on the boat in the evening. soon the stock turned a nasty pink color due to the finish on the stock absorbing water. i cleaned that rifle for the hunter 3 times during the hunt (10 days) and it was rusting up each time.

there are two kinds of rifles for the grizzly/brown bear hunter. the hunter/client rifle and the backup/guides rifle. i think a 375 and up of any type is a fine backup rifle, even a double would be fine if you were willing to subject it to the weather. the guide needs a stopping rifle, so i believe a 9.3x64 and up would be appropriate. the client needs a rifle they can shoot well so a 35 whelen power level rifle, 9.3x62 and up would be appropriate. i would rather see a hunter show up with a 3006 and 220 gr bullets than a 300 ultra mag!

i have a 450/400 zoli o/u double rifle that i bought for all around use, have shot several moose with it, no brown bears yet. my hunters shot very well when i carried it and was not needing a backup shot, oh well. i wax the rifle every day when i get off the skiff and back on the boat, oil it as needed, etc. it is horrible conditions to bring a beautiful rifle to, that said, I'm gonna bring it on this spring hunt.

i spoke to a life long guide that carried a 500 nitro h&h rifle (an actual Holland and Holland rifle, aaaah!!) for years, he said when you shot a bear with it, it was like "dropping a crane" on that bear!

my 45/70 lever gun is stainless/laminate wood, shot several bears with it using 350gr bullets at 2150 fps. once in a 12 yard shoot out. that rifle was always a definitive stopper. hard to image a gun that can put more firepower on target at a close range. that said, it was at its best at 200 yards or less.

as noted above, some shots can range to 250 yards (which i would likely not allow my client to shoot at, but depends on the cover/terrain) bolt rifles just do that chore BETTER.

so, as a backup rifle, a double would do a fine job, best at ranges under 200 yards. and waaay better under 100 yards. my 450/400 shoots 3" low at 200, 12" low at 250 and 24" low at 300 yards. on a moose or caribou in the open, with a rest, that is doable. BUT, on a bear near the alders shooting beyond 200 would be irresponsible with my double.

not trying to leave black bears out, but they are a completely different thing. a 270 win (i prefer 7mm as a starting point) and up does a fine job on black bears. its not that they cannot be dangerous, but mostly are not.

yes, years ago and in the villages today, hunters shot bears with rifles that are a bit lighter in caliber than i would PREFER. as stated, bears are targets of opportunity. but much like a big 5 safari, a guided brown bear is a fairly expensive hunting experience so a "PROPER" rifle should be used as it will be one of the least expensive part of the whole endeavor.

so in summary, double rifles can be used, but are a bit fragile for most coastal hunts. they are accurate enough (my double wears a 1-6X scope) if ranges are kept within the hunters abilities. with open sights, there will be opportunities lost due to distance. But for nearly everyone, a scope sighted bolt action rifle in a medium caliber (or larger) is an excellent choice for hunting the large bears.

i hope this filled in some blanks for you sir and of course my experiences are not all encompassing or absolute. these are just thoughts from watching and hunting these amazing animals for nearly 4 decades. (damn, i starting to get old!!)

Don

 

[BC.Pat]

Ill just add my 2 cents , on black bear hunting. I've taken a dozen or so black bears here on Vancouver Island were I live. We are allotted two a year if we desire ( its been some time, but I believe this is still the case). All but two have been taken with a 3006 with a 180 NAB. None of them went very far if at all. The only two exceptions where a 400 lb bear I took with a 54 cal muzzle loader, and about the same size bear with a bow. None over bait, all spot and stock in the logging clear cuts ( cut blocks) in the spring.
3006 is way more than enough gun for black bear IMHO.

regards
Pat

 

[Buckdog]

Major Khan,

first, thanks for all your great stories and great information of a time gone by.

I have lived in alaska most of my adult life, hunted here and guided for bears (brown/grizzly) and have formed some opinions, i will try to convey them.

I have carried and used 338 win, 375 ruger, 45/70 marlin and a 450/400 double rifle on grizzly/brown bears. I have shot bears with all but the 450-400. I have seen clients shoot bears with 300 ultra mags, 338 ultra, 338 lapua, 458 winchester mag, 375 ruger, 375 h & h, 375 weatherby. the ONLY rifles that i thought did a poor job were the 300 ultra's. too fast, no penetration. multiple shots (more than 5 in some cases) were always required. they were using swift A frame bullets in every case.

the double rifle is largely ignored as stated many times before, cost, availability AND BLUED STEEL. when i guide brown bears, my rifle WILL BE COATED WITH SALTWATER EVERY DAY! getting off the boat, on a skiff, hunting, then returning, it will be coated with saltwater spray and likely be rained on almost every day. i cried a little every day when a hunter with a 375 h&h sako bolt rifle (blued/wood) got back on the boat in the evening. soon the stock turned a nasty pink color due to the finish on the stock absorbing water. i cleaned that rifle for the hunter 3 times during the hunt (10 days) and it was rusting up each time.

there are two kinds of rifles for the grizzly/brown bear hunter. the hunter/client rifle and the backup/guides rifle. i think a 375 and up of any type is a fine backup rifle, even a double would be fine if you were willing to subject it to the weather. the guide needs a stopping rifle, so i believe a 9.3x64 and up would be appropriate. the client needs a rifle they can shoot well so a 35 whelen power level rifle, 9.3x62 and up would be appropriate. i would rather see a hunter show up with a 3006 and 220 gr bullets than a 300 ultra mag!

i have a 450/400 zoli o/u double rifle that i bought for all around use, have shot several moose with it, no brown bears yet. my hunters shot very well when i carried it and was not needing a backup shot, oh well. i wax the rifle every day when i get off the skiff and back on the boat, oil it as needed, etc. it is horrible conditions to bring a beautiful rifle to, that said, I'm gonna bring it on this spring hunt.

i spoke to a life long guide that carried a 500 nitro h&h rifle (an actual Holland and Holland rifle, aaaah!!) for years, he said when you shot a bear with it, it was like "dropping a crane" on that bear!

my 45/70 lever gun is stainless/laminate wood, shot several bears with it using 350gr bullets at 2150 fps. once in a 12 yard shoot out. that rifle was always a definitive stopper. hard to image a gun that can put more firepower on target at a close range. that said, it was at its best at 200 yards or less.

as noted above, some shots can range to 250 yards (which i would likely not allow my client to shoot at, but depends on the cover/terrain) bolt rifles just do that chore BETTER.

so, as a backup rifle, a double would do a fine job, best at ranges under 200 yards. and waaay better under 100 yards. my 450/400 shoots 3" low at 200, 12" low at 250 and 24" low at 300 yards. on a moose or caribou in the open, with a rest, that is doable. BUT, on a bear near the alders shooting beyond 200 would be irresponsible with my double.

not trying to leave black bears out, but they are a completely different thing. a 270 win (i prefer 7mm as a starting point) and up does a fine job on black bears. its not that they cannot be dangerous, but mostly are not.

yes, years ago and in the villages today, hunters shot bears with rifles that are a bit lighter in caliber than i would PREFER. as stated, bears are targets of opportunity. but much like a big 5 safari, a guided brown bear is a fairly expensive hunting experience so a "PROPER" rifle should be used as it will be one of the least expensive part of the whole endeavor.

so in summary, double rifles can be used, but are a bit fragile for most coastal hunts. they are accurate enough (my double wears a 1-6X scope) if ranges are kept within the hunters abilities. with open sights, there will be opportunities lost due to distance. But for nearly everyone, a scope sighted bolt action rifle in a medium caliber (or larger) is an excellent choice for hunting the large bears.

i hope this filled in some blanks for you sir and of course my experiences are not all encompassing or absolute. these are just thoughts from watching and hunting these amazing animals for nearly 4 decades. (damn, i starting to get old!!)

Don

don, what is was your guide rules aka I was a young intolerant bastard of PIA clients so my rule to them was you get one shot on a grizz or brownie and if it gets up or I don't see a good hit I am opening up on it with big momma and I was always locked on finger on the trigger. that served me well for the 4 yrs I messed around I only had to go into the shit after 2 wounded one big brownie and one grizz. that brownie really pissed me off client gut shot it in a salmon stream at 40 yds! I cursed him a lot and took away his gun so he wouldn't shoot me in the ass while I tracked it down.

 

[Major Khan]

major
in my youth shall we say a few decades ago I did a lot of hunting and guiding in Alaska. I would trade my labor of camp work, assistant guiding (aka guiding) for hunting, whatever it took. I have seen many bears killed, by clients,I have killed some for me, some that were camp raiders, some that were charging, wounded ones and seen lots of guns used. the bears include all blacks, inland grizz and the coastal browns.
Every gun I ever saw used was a bolt action. Clients liked 300 win mags or 338 win mags. Alaskans guides at the time favored 338 with 375 close behind. the climate is harsh in Alaska it is wet, it is cold, the coast is salt water, bush pilots used to commonly put their rifles in wing scabbards so the guns had to be able to be used and abused and keep on tickin and cheap. and the locals and guides usually only had 1 rifle and it was used for everything.
My personal toy was a stainless rem 700 375 H&H low power scope and back up iron sights. I still have and cherish that 375. She stopped charging right now and the same for camp raiders and anything else she met. The only time she wasn't fully stoked with one in the pipe was when she was in a bush plane. It is wilderness and you are in their turf and on their menu and contrary to the thinking of many an idiot client 2mm of nylon tent doesn't protect you from a grizz! so that 375 slept right next to me in the tent fully stoked every guide did the same in camp or not loaded up and ready.

Thank you so much for sharing your personal experiences as a professional hunter, Buck dog . Your insight is most valuable to me . It is quite pleasant to see that the .338 Winchester magnum is still popular for use against the Great American Bears . During my career as a professional shikaree , the most popular choice of rifle calibre brought by my clients for hunting Asian Sloth Bears was the .338 Winchester magnum . It is ( in my personal opinion) the perfect calibre for Asian Sloth Bears.
It is a novel feeling to be able to still hunt with the same weapon which you used as your back up rifle , during your career . That Remington Model 700 must , no doubt be quite dear to you , just as my “ Old Belgian “ side by side shot gun is to me ( I would use it for backing up my clients on their Indian shikars ) . Is your Remington Model 700 bolt rifle the “ classic “ model ?

 

[Major Khan]

Major Khan,

first, thanks for all your great stories and great information of a time gone by.

I have lived in alaska most of my adult life, hunted here and guided for bears (brown/grizzly) and have formed some opinions, i will try to convey them.

I have carried and used 338 win, 375 ruger, 45/70 marlin and a 450/400 double rifle on grizzly/brown bears. I have shot bears with all but the 450-400. I have seen clients shoot bears with 300 ultra mags, 338 ultra, 338 lapua, 458 winchester mag, 375 ruger, 375 h & h, 375 weatherby. the ONLY rifles that i thought did a poor job were the 300 ultra's. too fast, no penetration. multiple shots (more than 5 in some cases) were always required. they were using swift A frame bullets in every case.

the double rifle is largely ignored as stated many times before, cost, availability AND BLUED STEEL. when i guide brown bears, my rifle WILL BE COATED WITH SALTWATER EVERY DAY! getting off the boat, on a skiff, hunting, then returning, it will be coated with saltwater spray and likely be rained on almost every day. i cried a little every day when a hunter with a 375 h&h sako bolt rifle (blued/wood) got back on the boat in the evening. soon the stock turned a nasty pink color due to the finish on the stock absorbing water. i cleaned that rifle for the hunter 3 times during the hunt (10 days) and it was rusting up each time.

there are two kinds of rifles for the grizzly/brown bear hunter. the hunter/client rifle and the backup/guides rifle. i think a 375 and up of any type is a fine backup rifle, even a double would be fine if you were willing to subject it to the weather. the guide needs a stopping rifle, so i believe a 9.3x64 and up would be appropriate. the client needs a rifle they can shoot well so a 35 whelen power level rifle, 9.3x62 and up would be appropriate. i would rather see a hunter show up with a 3006 and 220 gr bullets than a 300 ultra mag!

i have a 450/400 zoli o/u double rifle that i bought for all around use, have shot several moose with it, no brown bears yet. my hunters shot very well when i carried it and was not needing a backup shot, oh well. i wax the rifle every day when i get off the skiff and back on the boat, oil it as needed, etc. it is horrible conditions to bring a beautiful rifle to, that said, I'm gonna bring it on this spring hunt.

i spoke to a life long guide that carried a 500 nitro h&h rifle (an actual Holland and Holland rifle, aaaah!!) for years, he said when you shot a bear with it, it was like "dropping a crane" on that bear!

my 45/70 lever gun is stainless/laminate wood, shot several bears with it using 350gr bullets at 2150 fps. once in a 12 yard shoot out. that rifle was always a definitive stopper. hard to image a gun that can put more firepower on target at a close range. that said, it was at its best at 200 yards or less.

as noted above, some shots can range to 250 yards (which i would likely not allow my client to shoot at, but depends on the cover/terrain) bolt rifles just do that chore BETTER.

so, as a backup rifle, a double would do a fine job, best at ranges under 200 yards. and waaay better under 100 yards. my 450/400 shoots 3" low at 200, 12" low at 250 and 24" low at 300 yards. on a moose or caribou in the open, with a rest, that is doable. BUT, on a bear near the alders shooting beyond 200 would be irresponsible with my double.

not trying to leave black bears out, but they are a completely different thing. a 270 win (i prefer 7mm as a starting point) and up does a fine job on black bears. its not that they cannot be dangerous, but mostly are not.

yes, years ago and in the villages today, hunters shot bears with rifles that are a bit lighter in caliber than i would PREFER. as stated, bears are targets of opportunity. but much like a big 5 safari, a guided brown bear is a fairly expensive hunting experience so a "PROPER" rifle should be used as it will be one of the least expensive part of the whole endeavor.

so in summary, double rifles can be used, but are a bit fragile for most coastal hunts. they are accurate enough (my double wears a 1-6X scope) if ranges are kept within the hunters abilities. with open sights, there will be opportunities lost due to distance. But for nearly everyone, a scope sighted bolt action rifle in a medium caliber (or larger) is an excellent choice for hunting the large bears.

i hope this filled in some blanks for you sir and of course my experiences are not all encompassing or absolute. these are just thoughts from watching and hunting these amazing animals for nearly 4 decades. (damn, i starting to get old!!)

Don

Thank you so much for your detailed and extremely informative response, Don . I have learnt a great deal from you . I find it extremely fascinating that you at least are OPEN to the concept of using your .450 / 400 over under double barreled rifle against bears . I sincerely hope that you do get an opportunity to use it against a Grizzly Bear very soon . It is also extremely intriguing to know that you have a friend who used a .500 Nitro Express calibre double barreled rifle ( that too , made by Holland & Holland ! ) on American Grizzly Bears ! Oh , how much I wish that I was personally there to witness such grand hunts !
Your logic is extremely sound and it helped me understand that while it technically , IS possible to use a double barreled rifle for hunting the Great American Bears ... a quality bolt rifle with an accurate telescopic sight is just SO much better for this task .
Thank you so much for enjoying all of my articles . Now , that you gentlemen have all provided me with the necessary information about the rifles used for hunting American bears ... I can commence writing my next article from tomorrow night.
And no , I do not think that you are old at all . To put matters into perspective ... I have recently turned 80 years old last month and am still hunting the occasional man eating panther , like this specimen which I just shot on February of this year .

 

[Major Khan]

Ill just add my 2 cents , on black bear hunting. I've taken a dozen or so black bears here on Vancouver Island were I live. We are allotted two a year if we desire ( its been some time, but I believe this is still the case). All but two have been taken with a 3006 with a 180 NAB. None of them went very far if at all. The only two exceptions where a 400 lb bear I took with a 54 cal muzzle loader, and about the same size bear with a bow. None over bait, all spot and stock in the logging clear cuts ( cut blocks) in the spring.
3006 is way more than enough gun for black bear IMHO.

regards
Pat

Thank you so much for your excellent input , Pat. Your American Black Bear species looks nearly identical to our Asian Sloth Bear species .For Asian Sloth Bears , several of my clients would bring .30-06 Springfield calibre rifles , loaded with 220 grain Winchester Silver Tip soft point cartridges . They worked quite splendidly on Asian Sloth Bears . These days , I cannot help but notice that most hunters who use .30-06 Springfield calibre rifles , seem to prefer the 180 grain bullet over the 220 grain bullet . I suspect that gentlemen in modern times prefer the longer range and flatter trajectory of the 180 grain bullet over the increased mass of the 220 grain bullet .

 

[BC.Pat]

Major.
Thank you for the kind words. I think we are fortunate to live in of a time when bullet & rifle performance allows us to strech or legs a bit.
I am not a proponent of ultra long range hunting that seems to be all the rage today. But in field conditions i think the 180g gives us a extra 100 meters or so of ethical range.
So I believe your correct why most hunters have moved away from 220 grain bullet selection except very dense cover.
Regards
Pat

 

[leslie hetrick]

bullets and powders have come a long way in the last few decades.

 

[wesheltonj]

Let me add one more reason. Most folks are older and poor eyesight, and prefer to look thru glass. I know I do. Much easier and cheaper to mount a scope on a bolt gun.

 

[Major Khan]

Let me add one more reason. Most folks are older and poor eyesight, and prefer to look thru glass. I know I do. Much easier and cheaper to mount a scope on a bolt gun.

Thank you so much for your kind insight , Wesheltonj . Your reason is simple , but holds an inescapable truth .

 

[1dirthawker]

don, what is was your guide rules aka I was a young intolerant bastard of PIA clients so my rule to them was you get one shot on a grizz or brownie and if it gets up or I don't see a good hit I am opening up on it with big momma and I was always locked on finger on the trigger. that served me well for the 4 yrs I messed around I only had to go into the shit after 2 wounded one big brownie and one grizz. that brownie really pissed me off client gut shot it in a salmon stream at 40 yds! I cursed him a lot and took away his gun so he wouldn't shoot me in the ass while I tracked it down.

buckdog,
we tell our clients that if they can keep the bear pinned with the shot and follow up well, we will stay off the trigger. once, i had a client hit a bear (at 200 yards) high on shoulder, appeared to be a good hit. the bear sat down biting at the wound, the client shot again, whiffed the second shot and the bear took off, made the alders and disappeared which required a tracking job for nearly a mile, found it and ended up with a shoot out in the alders (no bueno!!!)
since that episode, i am on the trigger after the first shot and if they are slow on a follow up, or miss the follow up, i send one. this policy has served me well a couple of times. i am not a great shot, but i seem to shoot pretty well at game.