Acquisition of a Double Rifle

[ActionBob]

You have one of the finest doubles ever made on the Continent. JJ still talks about it. Taking it over?

Yup! And just saw JJ today

 

[spoonieduck]

If a man wanted to get into a double rifle but did not have several thousand dollars to spend where would you start. Let's say $8000 was the cap. I have a trip to Zim in 2022 and I'm hunting buffalo and I have all the necessary equipment but I really really want to use a double...I have some rifles I.could sell to help fund the situation but I need to know from some guys in the know. What is the bottom line in double rifles

Well, I'd like a reasonably priced set of matched dueling pistols, originals, of course. No, I don't plan to meet an opponent in a misty field a first light. I just want them despite the fact that I'm old enough, now, that I couldn't own them long enough to realize any significant investment value.

I have a lot of hunting experience in Africa and other places. Maybe you have, too. If so, you'll know that a double rifle in the hands of a client is entirely unnecessary. You will not be standing alone in the thick jess facing the charge of an angry buffalo. You may stand there, alright, but rarely there will be a charge. BUT if the buffalo does come, you fire your first round. Nine times out of ten a hit at 75 feet does not kill the beast, instantly. It is the responsibility of the PH's [usually 2 of them on dangerous game] to entirely destroy the wounded buffalo. To do otherwise is totally unprofessional. There is none of this junk that I've heard so often from inexperienced hunters when they supposedly tell the PH, "You bleed it and I'm not paying for it." Therefore, nowadays, a double rifle isn't necessary on a hunt. Better to use a REAL stopper, in my case a Weatherby 416 magnum with 400 grain solid slugs, but you need to be able to handle the recoil.

On the other hand, what do I know? I've only shot 4 bull buffalo and there was no real drama on any of them. As a matter of fact, I can recall no real drama on any African animal except for two lionesses who charged full tilt, but were deflected when I blew dirt in their eyes by shooting in front of them. My rifle, with its mauser action was entirely adequate, for the task. Now, the potential is there, of course. A friend captured a leopard a couple of days before I arrived. He held it in a 50 x 50 foot pen. I waited until the leopard got to the far side of the pen. I crouched down like I was carrying a double-barreled shotgun in my lap. The leopard charged every time I tried this. I tried it 4 or 5 times and the leopard beat me every time. I didn't have time to lift my imaginary shotgun to my shoulder. If it hadn't been for the pen, he would have opened me like a sieve. Note that I would have been just as lacerated if I'd carried a double-barreled rifle or assegai.

 

[rookhawk]

Well, I'd like a reasonably priced set of matched dueling pistols, originals, of course. No, I don't plan to meet an opponent in a misty field a first light. I just want them despite the fact that I'm old enough, now, that I couldn't own them long enough to realize any significant investment value.

I have a lot of hunting experience in Africa and other places. Maybe you have, too. If so, you'll know that a double rifle in the hands of a client is entirely unnecessary. You will not be standing alone in the thick jess facing the charge of an angry buffalo. You may stand there, alright, but rarely there will be a charge. BUT if the buffalo does come, you fire your first round. Nine times out of ten a hit at 75 feet does not kill the beast, instantly. It is the responsibility of the PH's [usually 2 of them on dangerous game] to entirely destroy the wounded buffalo. To do otherwise is totally unprofessional. There is none of this junk that I've heard so often from inexperienced hunters when they supposedly tell the PH, "You bleed it and I'm not paying for it." Therefore, nowadays, a double rifle isn't necessary on a hunt. Better to use a REAL stopper, in my case a Weatherby 416 magnum with 400 grain solid slugs, but you need to be able to handle the recoil.

On the other hand, what do I know? I've only shot 4 bull buffalo and there was no real drama on any of them. As a matter of fact, I can recall no real drama on any African animal except for two lionesses who charged full tilt, but were deflected when I blew dirt in their eyes by shooting in front of them. My rifle, with its mauser action was entirely adequate, for the task. Now, the potential is there, of course. A friend captured a leopard a couple of days before I arrived. He held it in a 50 x 50 foot pen. I waited until the leopard got to the far side of the pen. I crouched down like I was carrying a double-barreled shotgun in my lap. The leopard charged every time I tried this. I tried it 4 or 5 times and the leopard beat me every time. I didn't have time to lift my imaginary shotgun to my shoulder. If it hadn't been for the pen, he would have opened me like a sieve. Note that I would have been just as lacerated if I'd carried a double-barreled rifle or assegai.

Just passing on a sincere compliment. Its rare that people like to do their own investigations rather than living in the world of anecdotes and rumors. The fact that you tested your response time to a leopard charge under controlled conditions speaks volumes of you as a hunter.

I'd argue if anything, the leopard you tested on is slower than real life because it probably was bracing for hitting the fence, or at least fatigued from multiple charges and no surge of adrenaline. Anyway you look at it, the reaction time could only be what you saw or WORSE for the hunter.

Great experience you shared. Thank you.

 

[Jonathan Kashouty]

Gentlemen - I am holding out for a Heym in 470NE. Will contact Chris Sells as soon as I can pull the $triggers!

 

[machinistbutler]

Well, I'd like a reasonably priced set of matched dueling pistols, originals, of course. No, I don't plan to meet an opponent in a misty field a first light. I just want them despite the fact that I'm old enough, now, that I couldn't own them long enough to realize any significant investment value.

I have a lot of hunting experience in Africa and other places. Maybe you have, too. If so, you'll know that a double rifle in the hands of a client is entirely unnecessary. You will not be standing alone in the thick jess facing the charge of an angry buffalo. You may stand there, alright, but rarely there will be a charge. BUT if the buffalo does come, you fire your first round. Nine times out of ten a hit at 75 feet does not kill the beast, instantly. It is the responsibility of the PH's [usually 2 of them on dangerous game] to entirely destroy the wounded buffalo. To do otherwise is totally unprofessional. There is none of this junk that I've heard so often from inexperienced hunters when they supposedly tell the PH, "You bleed it and I'm not paying for it." Therefore, nowadays, a double rifle isn't necessary on a hunt. Better to use a REAL stopper, in my case a Weatherby 416 magnum with 400 grain solid slugs, but you need to be able to handle the recoil.

On the other hand, what do I know? I've only shot 4 bull buffalo and there was no real drama on any of them. As a matter of fact, I can recall no real drama on any African animal except for two lionesses who charged full tilt, but were deflected when I blew dirt in their eyes by shooting in front of them. My rifle, with its mauser action was entirely adequate, for the task. Now, the potential is there, of course. A friend captured a leopard a couple of days before I arrived. He held it in a 50 x 50 foot pen. I waited until the leopard got to the far side of the pen. I crouched down like I was carrying a double-barreled shotgun in my lap. The leopard charged every time I tried this. I tried it 4 or 5 times and the leopard beat me every time. I didn't have time to lift my imaginary shotgun to my shoulder. If it hadn't been for the pen, he would have opened me like a sieve. Note that I would have been just as lacerated if I'd carried a double-barreled rifle or assegai.

So you recommend a 416 Weatherby with solids over a double rifle for dangerous game for clients , provided they train and can handle the recoil of either?

 

[Rare Breed]

If a man wanted to get into a double rifle but did not have several thousand dollars to spend where would you start. Let's say $8000 was the cap. I have a trip to Zim in 2022 and I'm hunting buffalo and I have all the necessary equipment but I really really want to use a double...I have some rifles I.could sell to help fund the situation but I need to know from some guys in the know. What is the bottom line in double rifles

I researched bought one in 470 that was too light sold it and love my Chapuis in 450-400. $12,000 including red dot mount. $8,000 will get you a used double but not much of one and I would not do it. Save your money. Your budget should be between $10-$15K to get a nice DR. Good luck

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

That is much my question. I'm very new to the double game. What is the price point where decent doubles start?

@Backyardsniper
When my family was in London we went to the Holland and Holland showroom. A royal double in the caliber of your choice was a measly £260,000 the budget models started at around £80,000 and from ther they only went up. That was about 9 Yeats ago so I think they mm ay be a bit more expensive now.
Bob

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

@Backyardsniper
When my family was in London we went to the Holland and Holland showroom. A royal double in the caliber of your choice was a measly £260,000 the budget models started at around £80,000 and from ther they only went up. That was about 9 Yeats ago so I think they mm ay be a bit more expensive now.
Bob

When you consider you can get a Heym for a quarter of H&H's cheapest offering it really makes it hard not to consider one. This is an 89b in 450/400, simple elegance.

 

[Backyardsniper]

Having booked my safari I'll be mostly concentrating on paying for that. However if I sold a few other guns and came across the right deal then I might go for it. There has been a lot of good info in this thread.

 

[VertigoBE]

When you consider you can get a Heym for a quarter of H&H's cheapest offering it really makes it hard not to consider one. This is an 89b in 450/400, simple elegance.View attachment 420884

You finally received your Heym double?

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

You finally received your Heym double?

No, not yet. Half way through.

 

[VertigoBE]

In short, you will own trash more likely than not with your goals. Buy a very, very good bolt rifle instead.

Caveat Emptor: $8000 double rifles are both overpriced and often will cost you double the purchase price to get them servicable.

Hello @rookhawk, I’d like to pick your brain on your above suggestion. If one’s budget is indeed (well) below 10keuro and and one would follow your advice of buying a “very, very good bolt action”, what would you suggest?

With the same purpose of course, a dedicated bolt action for dangerous game, that breathes Africa. What would be the best possible traditional bolt action in a big African calibre be today, for sub-10k? Without need for additional gun smithing work of course.

Something like a Heym Express Martini? Any other options?

 

[rookhawk]

Hello @rookhawk, I’d like to pick your brain on your above suggestion. If one’s budget is indeed (well) below 10keuro and and one would follow your advice of buying a “very, very good bolt action”, what would you suggest?

With the same purpose of course, a dedicated bolt action for dangerous game, that breathes Africa. What would be the best possible traditional bolt action in a big African calibre be today, for sub-10k? Without need for additional gun smithing work of course.

Something like a Heym Express Martini? Any other options?

Hi @VertigoBE

There are many wonderful new and used magazine rifles that can be had for your price targets. Post war H&H London rifles in 375HH sell well south of 10,000 EUR. Modern Dakota rifles that are take-down in multiple calibers (e.g. 375HH AND 458 Lott) can be had in that budget. Brand new Rigby single square bridge mausers on magnum actions can be had for less than your budget too.

There is a cult following for Blaser R8s. We have many resident experts including @Red Leg .

For smaller calibers the Heym SR30 seems very good. I just acquired one but don't have anything to report on it yet. (largest caliber is 375 Ruger and 9.3x62)

Heym has their magnum mauser. Reimer Johannsen. Prechtl. Loads of great options for you in the EU.

Once you get to used and vintage guns, "Ferlachs" (Austrian) and "Suhl" guns (German) are relative bargains. Magnum mauser action safari rifles from the continent sell very inexpensively in Europe. Even best London guns, especially those not on magnum actions like 375HH and 458 Winchester can be found for reasonable money if they are post-WWII.

 

[VertigoBE]

Hi @VertigoBE

There are many wonderful new and used magazine rifles that can be had for your price targets. Post war H&H London rifles in 375HH sell well south of 10,000 EUR. Modern Dakota rifles that are take-down in multiple calibers (e.g. 375HH AND 458 Lott) can be had in that budget. Brand new Rigby single square bridge mausers on magnum actions can be had for less than your budget too.

There is a cult following for Blaser R8s. We have many resident experts including @Red Leg .

For smaller calibers the Heym SR30 seems very good. I just acquired one but don't have anything to report on it yet. (largest caliber is 375 Ruger and 9.3x62)

Heym has their magnum mauser. Reimer Johannsen. Prechtl. Loads of great options for you in the EU.

Once you get to used and vintage guns, "Ferlachs" (Austrian) and "Suhl" guns (German) are relative bargains. Magnum mauser action safari rifles from the continent sell very inexpensively in Europe. Even best London guns, especially those not on magnum actions like 375HH and 458 Winchester can be found for reasonable money if they are post-WWII.

Thank you for your response and apologies for derailing the thread a little.

If I were to refine a bit more: must be new, must not need any further fine tuning, correction, etc. must be in a caliber larger than .375H&H, must be appropriate for dangerous game. Basically what is the crème de la crème in bolt actions that a PH might use instead of a double, to stop a charge of anything from a leopard to an elephant.

Or put in a different way, with all the praise a new Heym 89B gets, what would be its’ equivalent bolt action?

 

[rookhawk]

Thank you for your response and apologies for derailing the thread a little.

If I were to refine a bit more: must be new, must not need any further fine tuning, correction, etc. must be in a caliber larger than .375H&H, must be appropriate for dangerous game. Basically what is the crème de la crème in bolt actions that a PH might use instead of a double, to stop a charge of anything from a leopard to an elephant.

Or put in a different way, with all the praise a new Heym 89B gets, what would be its’ equivalent bolt action?

Rigby single or double square bridge in 416 or 450 rigby.

Mauser by Mauser. Double or single square bridge in many magnum calibers.

Heym Safari rifle. Embellished as you wish. Large calibers. Square bridge.

Prechtl/Reimer Johannsen square bridge mausers. Finished by various makers.


On your budget, new, there are lots of great guns out there. The only thing really fabulous that exceeds your budget is a Hartmann & Weiss. About every other quality safari magnum mauser out there can be had in some configuration for less than 10,000 euros.

Postscript. Even with all these recommendations, I would not own a new rifle because I don't buy depreciating assets. I'd rather by 4 of them used than 1 new. The one in that list I might be prone to buy new is a Rigby because I think they are priced too cheaply and all best London makers have a habit of bankruptcies or increasing price while reducing output. A rigby at 10,000 Euros or less will probably hold or appreciate. The rest of them lose 40% to 60% of their value when you take that first shot.

 

[VertigoBE]

Rigby single or double square bridge in 416 or 450 rigby.

Mauser by Mauser. Double or single square bridge in many magnum calibers.

Heym Safari rifle. Embellished as you wish. Large calibers. Square bridge.

Prechtl/Reimer Johannsen square bridge mausers. Finished by various makers.


On your budget, new, there are lots of great guns out there. The only thing really fabulous that exceeds your budget is a Hartmann & Weiss. About every other quality safari magnum mauser out there can be had in some configuration for less than 10,000 euros.

Postscript. Even with all these recommendations, I would not own a new rifle because I don't buy depreciating assets. I'd rather by 4 of them used than 1 new. The one in that list I might be prone to buy new is a Rigby because I think they are priced too cheaply and all best London makers have a habit of bankruptcies or increasing price while reducing output. A rigby at 10,000 Euros or less will probably hold or appreciate. The rest of them lose 40% to 60% of their value when you take that first shot.

Excellent, thank you very much @rookhawk !

 

[Daniel Cary]

When you consider you can get a Heym for a quarter of H&H's cheapest offering it really makes it hard not to consider one. This is an 89b in 450/400, simple elegance.View attachment 420884

Awesome!

 

[Rell]

My first real safari rifle was a CZ in 416 Rigby by AHR. Before I bought my Chapuis 450-400 3”.

Home - American Hunting Rifles

AMERICAN HUNTING RIFLES has long been known for quality, dependability and accuracy. Our following of satisfied, repeat customers attests to this. We build the finest custom rifles for the discriminating hunter to meet our exceedingly high standard of reliability and accuracy with a dedication...

americanhuntingrifles.com

For around $5,000 you get an absolutely quality rifle, Mauser styled CZ that has been fully worked over for reliability and to a lesser extent accuracy. Custom laminate stock to my measurements, much improved upgraded sights, barrel band sling swivel, ceramic finish, and it works!

if you plan on getting a double latter, maybe get one in 375 Weatherby? Supper flat shooting, can use 375 H&H in a pinch and with solids is a little more gun.

 

[rookhawk]

My first real safari rifle was a CZ in 416 Rigby by AHR. Before I bought my Chapuis 450-400 3”.

Home - American Hunting Rifles

AMERICAN HUNTING RIFLES has long been known for quality, dependability and accuracy. Our following of satisfied, repeat customers attests to this. We build the finest custom rifles for the discriminating hunter to meet our exceedingly high standard of reliability and accuracy with a dedication...

americanhuntingrifles.com

For around $5,000 you get an absolutely quality rifle, Mauser styled CZ that has been fully worked over for reliability and to a lesser extent accuracy. Custom laminate stock to my measurements, much improved upgraded sights, barrel band sling swivel, ceramic finish, and it works!

if you plan on getting a double latter, maybe get one in 375 Weatherby? Supper flat shooting, can use 375 H&H in a pinch and with solids is a little more gun.

My problem with the $5000 customized CZ is the same as the $100,000 Ford.

Buy a Porsche 911 twin turbo, or a used Ferrari for a $150,000. The reply…but I can buy a crappy Ford Mustang for $60,000, and then send it to Saleen, and then Foose, and then add this, tear out that, and for $120,000 I’ve saved $30,000 over a used ferrari or a new Porsche 911 twin turbo.

Correct. But you still own a Ford. And a Ford will never be a Ferrari. And if that additional 15% price difference between trash you can afford and a super high quality car is make-or-break for your budget, you shouldn’t be buying either.

Thus, the $1500 CZ being transformed into a $5000 CZ is a bad deal. It’s a great $1500 gun, its a truly unremarkable, overpriced factory-mass-produced soulless $5000 gun. For $6000 and up you’re into best quality hand built guns of incredible quality. It’s an insult to the best guns to be compared to a mass produced gun 85% of their costs.

Just my take. And I don’t hate CZs at all, but I hate mixed metaphors and its a frequent, absurd comparison.

I had a fellow come over the other day to buy a custom built, unused, Abercrombie & Fitch Dumoulin Mauser. He wasn’t sure if he was going to buy it, or a new factory mass produced Winchester model 70 super grade with a maple wood stock for the same price. I kept biting my lip, coming very close to refusing to sell my gun to him. I found it an insult to the craft to allow the gun to be compared to a garden variety gun that will be at a pawn shop in ten years. I did sell it to him, but I hated the comparison and it bothered me someone couldn’t tell the vast difference in quality for equal price.

”I was on the way to buy the Ferrari but I saw a Chevy Camaro on the way and figured, same thing, so I got that instead” <cringe>

 

[machinistbutler]

My first real safari rifle was a CZ in 416 Rigby by AHR. Before I bought my Chapuis 450-400 3”.

Home - American Hunting Rifles

AMERICAN HUNTING RIFLES has long been known for quality, dependability and accuracy. Our following of satisfied, repeat customers attests to this. We build the finest custom rifles for the discriminating hunter to meet our exceedingly high standard of reliability and accuracy with a dedication...

americanhuntingrifles.com

For around $5,000 you get an absolutely quality rifle, Mauser styled CZ that has been fully worked over for reliability and to a lesser extent accuracy. Custom laminate stock to my measurements, much improved upgraded sights, barrel band sling swivel, ceramic finish, and it works!

if you plan on getting a double latter, maybe get one in 375 Weatherby? Supper flat shooting, can use 375 H&H in a pinch and with solids is a little more gun.

Did you mean getting a double in 375 Weatherby? If so I eagerly await the upcoming comments.

I agree on the AHR rifles. They are just beautiful. Very well done.