American Standards For Commercially Manufactured Sporting Ammunition

[Hunter-Habib]

WITH ABSOLUTELY ZERO DISRESPECT INTENDED TOWARDS AMERICAN AMMUNITION MANUFACTURERS…

I’m curious. When American ammunition/bullet manufacturers alter a component in the manufacture of their wares… are they under any sort of obligation to disclose this information to the consumers (personal ethics aside) ?

To put matters into perspective, this is a vintage box of Remington 300Gr round nosed FMJ solids in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum caliber.

Remington produced solids for the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum from 1961-1994. From 1961 -1981, Remington loaded solids for this caliber with a 300Gr copper jacketed flat nosed FMJ bullet.
Like so.

This was identical to the 300Gr copper jacketed flat nosed FMJ bullets which were also being loaded by Winchester until 1981 (which denotes that both Remington and Winchester were sourcing these bullets from the same supplier instead of manufacturing them in-house).

From 1982-1989, Remington was loading their .375 Holland & Holland Magnum solids with a 300Gr steel jacketed round nosed FMJ Hornady bullet. As can be seen below, the bullets definitely contain steel jackets since they will attract a magnet very easily.

From 1990-1994, Remington loaded their .375 Holland & Holland Magnum solids with a copper jacketed round nosed FMJ Hornady bullet.
Like so.

The steel jacketed round nosed FMJ Hornady solids which Remington was loading between 1982-1989 was quite excellent stuff. I took a large elephant bull In Zimbabwe with a single side brain shot, employing one of these bullets. But the copper jacketed variants were absolutely atrocious in terms of straight line penetration & quite prone to breaking apart on Cape buffalo shoulder bones, hippopotamus shoulder bones & elephant skulls.

Recently I was able to purchase a vintage but unopened box of Remington .375 Holland & Holland Magnum round nosed FMJ solids which the original owner bought back in 1990. I started testing all 20 rounds with a magnet out of curiosity. I was quite astonished to learn that 9 rounds in the box possessed steel jackets. But the other 11 possessed copper jackets. In other words, Remington was loading two different kinds of solids IN THE SAME BOX.

This is quite disconcerting. Imagine if you (in 1990) purchased a brand new box of these with the intention of taking a big bull elephant. And then, you accidentally end up taking a frontal brain shot on the brute with one of the copper jacketed FMJ solids (which were well known for completely breaking apart when striking heavy bones).

We old timers have experienced similar issues with Winchester brand ammunition for the .458 Magnum in the past. From 1956-1969, Winchester was loading a proprietary 500Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid (a direct copy of John Rigby’s round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids for the .416 Rigby). From 1970 -1981, they were using a 500Gr round nosed copper jacketed FMJ Hornady solids. From 1982-1989, they were using a 500Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ Hornady solid. Then again from 1990 to 1994, they were using 500Gr round nosed copper jacketed FMJ Hornady solids (after which Winchester ceased to manufacture .458 Magnum ammunition altogether).


So my question is: Aren’t there any industrial standards to American commercial ammunition manufacture which should compel companies to disclose if they’ve made any vital changes to their ammunition ?

For instance: The old British Imperial Chemical Industries Kynoch ammunition boxes would always specify if bullet jackets were made from steel or not.

 

[PerH]

That is not good quality assurance of a maker with two different solids of various materials in same box

What if one was brittle of them and bent in the impact or worse , broke down completely as opposed to what it should behave like .

 

[Ontario Hunter]

You were told that box of ammo was unopened but do you know for sure that someone didn't mix things up? Here's an example: I go to the range to test two different loads with two different bullets. If they look the same, is it not possible to get the cartridges mixed up when putting them back in the box? I recall once when I had two different loads with different bullets in the same box at different ends of the box. Box gets knocked over and I can't tell which is which. Loaded up the vehicle, went home, pounded out the bullets, and put the powder back in the jug (same powder for both loads). I then weighed the bullets and separated them. Then started over. This time I marked the primer ends with colored markers and similarly coded the recipes sheet.

Nowadays it seems the big manufacturers are more inclined to put the alien bullet component on the box as advertising so they can boost the price.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

That is not good quality assurance of a maker with two different solids of various materials in same box

What if one was brittle of them and bent in the impact or worse , broke down completely as opposed to what it should behave like .

Couldn't agree more, Per.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

You were told that box of ammo was unopened but do you know for sure that someone didn't mix things up? Here's an example: I go to the range to test two different loads with two different bullets. If they look the same, is it not possible to get the cartridges mixed up when putting them back in the box? I recall once when I had two different loads with different bullets in the same box at different ends of the box. Box gets knocked over and I can't tell which is which. Loaded up the vehicle, went home, pounded out the bullets, and put the powder back in the jug (same powder for both loads). I then weighed the bullets and separated them. Then started over. This time I marked the primer ends with colored markers and similarly coded the recipes sheet.

Nowadays it seems the big manufacturers are more inclined to put the alien bullet component on the box as advertising so they can boost the price.

I initially thought the exact same thing. But the original owner bought just this one box brand new from Cabela's in 1990. His other boxes of ammunition were all Remington 270Gr soft points. He never used the solids at all. We know each other for many years and even went on Safari together.

 

[baxterb]

Does the last pic show a steel and non-steel bullet? Are they otherwise indistinguishable?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Does the last pic show a steel and non-steel bullet? Are they otherwise indistinguishable?

100%, baxterb.

One is loaded with the 300Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ Hornady solid. The other is loaded with the 300Gr round nosed copper jacketed FMJ Hornady solid. They both look identical externally.

 

[FlyGuy]

Terrible QC.

 

[CBeck]

They almost always have the disclaimer somewhere…….

Specifications are subject to change without notice. Manufacturer reserves the right to discontinue or modify specifications or designswithout notice or without incurring obligations.

 

[Flbt]

You were told that box of ammo was unopened but do you know for sure that someone didn't mix things up? Here's an example: I go to the range to test two different loads with two different bullets. If they look the same, is it not possible to get the cartridges mixed up when putting them back in the box? I recall once when I had two different loads with different bullets in the same box at different ends of the box. Box gets knocked over and I can't tell which is which. Loaded up the vehicle, went home, pounded out the bullets, and put the powder back in the jug (same powder for both loads). I then weighed the bullets and separated them. Then started over. This time I marked the primer ends with colored markers and similarly coded the recipes sheet.

Nowadays it seems the big manufacturers are more inclined to put the alien bullet component on the box as advertising so they can boost the price.

They could get mixed up in stores
There is a lot of places the ammo on shelfs

Even places that you had to ask to see a box
They will have people opening them.

One of my fondest memory’s of the fed store.
They had a rifleman behind the counter
And they had the hard to find ammo
38-40 44-40 25-20
375 win 375 h &h 458
30-40 405 and 33 win
And a buch more for a little town in fl
Thats was hard to find in the late 70 early 80
Mr Freed would let me see a box while dad did what he did
He would take the time to explain what it was what it was most common shot in and what he thought it should be used on.
I all ways payed attention to put everything back on the right box.
But who knows how many other kids he started that did not pay attention?

 

[Doug3006]

Hi @Hunter-Habib! Sadly, US ammo manufacturers make changes to ammo components with some frequency and without much notice. Occasionally they do so in response to feedback from the hunting fraternity, as was the case with Hornady’s DGX being improved (immensely) by bonding. Other times, it’s to make the product less expensive to manufacture. When Federal bought Trophy Bonded they proceeded to “improve “ the Bear Claw by making it cheaper to make. They took a superb bullet that penetrated and retained weight extremely well and made it a merely good bullet. With no notice. I’ve heard they reverted to the old recipe as a result of pushback from hunters.

The manufacturer mixing cartridges of different construction in the same box….even the same lot…is inexcusable.

 

[HankBuck]

WITH ABSOLUTELY ZERO DISRESPECT INTENDED TOWARDS AMERICAN AMMUNITION MANUFACTURERS…

I’m curious. When American ammunition/bullet manufacturers alter a component in the manufacture of their wares… are they under any sort of obligation to disclose this information to the consumers (personal ethics aside) ?

To put matters into perspective, this is a vintage box of Remington 300Gr round nosed FMJ solids in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum caliber.
View attachment 672916View attachment 672917
Remington produced solids for the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum from 1961-1994. From 1961 -1981, Remington loaded solids for this caliber with a 300Gr copper jacketed flat nosed FMJ bullet.
Like so.
View attachment 672924
This was identical to the 300Gr copper jacketed flat nosed FMJ bullets which were also being loaded by Winchester until 1981 (which denotes that both Remington and Winchester were sourcing these bullets from the same supplier instead of manufacturing them in-house).
View attachment 672926
From 1982-1989, Remington was loading their .375 Holland & Holland Magnum solids with a 300Gr steel jacketed round nosed FMJ Hornady bullet. As can be seen below, the bullets definitely contain steel jackets since they will attract a magnet very easily.
View attachment 672918
From 1990-1994, Remington loaded their .375 Holland & Holland Magnum solids with a copper jacketed round nosed FMJ Hornady bullet.
Like so.
View attachment 672927

The steel jacketed round nosed FMJ Hornady solids which Remington was loading between 1982-1989 was quite excellent stuff. I took a large elephant bull In Zimbabwe with a single side brain shot, employing one of these bullets. But the copper jacketed variants were absolutely atrocious in terms of straight line penetration & quite prone to breaking apart on Cape buffalo shoulder bones, hippopotamus shoulder bones & elephant skulls.

Recently I was able to purchase a vintage but unopened box of Remington .375 Holland & Holland Magnum round nosed FMJ solids which the original owner bought back in 1990. I started testing all 20 rounds with a magnet out of curiosity. I was quite astonished to learn that 9 rounds in the box possessed steel jackets. But the other 11 possessed copper jackets. In other words, Remington was loading two different kinds of solids IN THE SAME BOX.
View attachment 672919
This is quite disconcerting. Imagine if you (in 1990) purchased a brand new box of these with the intention of taking a big bull elephant. And then, you accidentally end up taking a frontal brain shot on the brute with one of the copper jacketed FMJ solids (which were well known for completely breaking apart when striking heavy bones).

We old timers have experienced similar issues with Winchester brand ammunition for the .458 Magnum in the past. From 1956-1969, Winchester was loading a proprietary 500Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid (a direct copy of John Rigby’s round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids for the .416 Rigby). From 1970 -1981, they were using a 500Gr round nosed copper jacketed FMJ Hornady solids. From 1982-1989, they were using a 500Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ Hornady solid. Then again from 1990 to 1994, they were using 500Gr round nosed copper jacketed FMJ Hornady solids (after which Winchester ceased to manufacture .458 Magnum ammunition altogether).


So my question is: Aren’t there any industrial standards to American commercial ammunition manufacture which should compel companies to disclose if they’ve made any vital changes to their ammunition ?

For instance: The old British Imperial Chemical Industries Kynoch ammunition boxes would always specify if bullet jackets were made from steel or not.

@Hunter-Habib - guess we know why Remington went Out-of-Business….quality just continued to deteriorate and a Neighbor of mine that worked at the Illion NY factory said he would “never buy a Remington gun made after the 1980s”

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Hi @Hunter-Habib! Sadly, US ammo manufacturers make changes to ammo components with some frequency and without much notice. Occasionally they do so in response to feedback from the hunting fraternity, as was the case with Hornady’s DGX being improved (immensely) by bonding. Other times, it’s to make the product less expensive to manufacture. When Federal bought Trophy Bonded they proceeded to “improve “ the Bear Claw by making it cheaper to make. They took a superb bullet that penetrated and retained weight extremely well and made it a merely good bullet. With no notice. I’ve heard they reverted to the old recipe as a result of pushback from hunters.

The manufacturer mixing cartridges of different construction in the same box….even the same lot…is inexcusable.

It really is unfortunate, @Doug3006

American companies have truly great potential to manufacture some top notch fodder. Remington had a real winner when they were loading the 300Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids for the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum from 1982-1989. I’ve recovered several from Cape buffalo & hippopotamus which looked as if they could be loaded & fired again (barring the marks of the rifling grooves).

 

[baxterb]

100%, baxterb.

One is loaded with the 300Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ Hornady solid. The other is loaded with the 300Gr round nosed copper jacketed FMJ Hornady solid. They both look identical externally.

That is really interesting. I know you've only a limited supply, but my curiosity would lead me to pull one of each and section it just to see how different they are.

 

[mark-hunter]

So my question is: Aren’t there any industrial standards to American commercial ammunition manufacture which should compel companies to disclose if they’ve made any vital changes to their ammunition ?

I havent seen that in European commercial ammo manufacture, either.
Sellier & Bellot had one lot of steel jacket, then next on copper (or other alloy), without any notice, for same bullet types.
I would say, it happens and the market (end users) has no control over it, except to complain when it is already too late.
They dont put on the box much more then classic "keep out of reach of children".

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I havent seen that in European commercial ammo manufacture, either.
Sellier & Bellot had one lot of steel jacket, then next on copper (or other alloy), without any notice, for same bullet types.
I would say, it happens and the market (end users) has no control over it, except to complain when it is already too late.
They dont put on the box much more then classic "keep out of reach of children".

Mark, what caliber of Sellier & Bellot ammunition did you notice this change in jacket material in ? And what year was this ?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

@Hunter-Habib - guess we know why Remington went Out-of-Business….quality just continued to deteriorate and a Neighbor of mine that worked at the Illion NY factory said he would “never buy a Remington gun made after the 1980s”

@HankBuck
I find myself wondering how Remington will do now as a Czech owned company.

 

[mark-hunter]

Mark, what caliber of Sellier & Bellot ammunition did you notice this change in jacket material in ? And what year was this ?

SPCE in 30-06 and Soft point in 9.3x62. I dont know exactly the year, but it was in last 5 to 7 years. (Changes noticed after 2017)

 

[grand veneur]

The topic has inspired me to check what I have used in the past and what I still have in stock, but it is mainly about 500gr FMJ bullets caliber 458. The older bullets from Hornady, also those of the older factory loads from Weatherby are steel jacketed, but the recent one are only copper jacketed. Due to their color are these clearly different, they cannot be confused. The same applies to the 400gr FMJ bullets caliber 416 from Hornady, of which I still have a few. For this reason I am surprised why this is not the case with bullets caliber 375 and that there could be a mixture of bullets in factory loads.

Back then, I did not really question the alloy when reloading the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum with both types of FMJ bullets from Hornady. I noticed only the different color of the bullets. However, I also noticed that the point of impact was slightly different, but since I always checked and corrected this before every hunt, it was practically no problem. I have not had any bad experiences with the 500gr copper jacketed bullet from Hornady, even when shooting an elephant.

 

[CZDiesel]

It really is unfortunate, @Doug3006

American companies have truly great potential to manufacture some top notch fodder. Remington had a real winner when they were loading the 300Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids for the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum from 1982-1989. I’ve recovered several from Cape buffalo & hippopotamus which looked as if they could be loaded & fired again (barring the marks of the rifling grooves).

Nope! Not buying what you are selling Sir!!!

First the US DOES make the best ammunition on the planet! Second they are strictly controlled between lots of manufacture because of massive insurance and government oversight over site!
So NO you cannot get intermixed bullets within the same lot! Not possible!!!
Every lot at the beginning of the run has strict controls of all the components - brass/primers/propellents/bullets that are all from the same lots and runs of each individual component respectively! Never do any of the manufactures mix and mingle components as the are not allowed to and any of the component runs that are over the loaded cartridge run is then sold as individual components from the manufacture…
There is strict government and insurance controls that do not allow them to mingle lots within a manufacturing run so NO the two separate bullets were not loaded and then boxed together, not possible!
Every component has a unique lot number and every loaded cartridge run has a unique lot number. If a manufacturer of any ammunition here in the US does not follow these standards they would lose both their licensing and insurance to manufacture ammunition and would probably be fined severely!