Another 45-70 for Dangerous Game Question

[rooihond]

I know that the 45-70 for DG debate has been revisited many times and the horse is tenderized by now. My question is, has anybody considered the equation with loads like the Garrett 500 grain solids or other newer loads? The numbers seem to work but does it add up in the real world?

 

[Grumulkin]

So, you know the debate has been revisited ad nauseum so why are you asking again? Why would you use it on dangerous game?

I fail to understand what the great fascination is for the 45-70. There is nothing it can do that a more modern cartridge can't do better. It doesn't matter what bullet or powder you use in it; there is still another more modern cartridge that with similar enhancements will do better. I doubt there is any self respecting African PH is carrying one. If you can afford to hunt dangerous game, you could also afford something better. So, what's the point? If you really have a burning love for the 45-70 and want to hunt dangerous game with it, I'm sure some PH will be happy to arrange it for you but he won't be carrying a 45-70 to back you up.

 

[rooihond]

So, you know the debate has been revisited ad nauseum so why are you asking again? Why would you use it on dangerous game?

I fail to understand what the great fascination is for the 45-70. There is nothing it can do that a more modern cartridge can't do better. It doesn't matter what bullet or powder you use in it; there is still another more modern cartridge that with similar enhancements will do better. I doubt there is any self respecting African PH is carrying one. If you can afford to hunt dangerous game, you could also afford something better. So, what's the point? If you really have a burning love for the 45-70 and want to hunt dangerous game with it, I'm sure some PH will be happy to arrange it for you but he won't be carrying a 45-70 to back you up.

I maintain a healthy amount of skepticism of what I find on the Internet. I am fairly new to AH but have found some confidence in what I read here and the experience of the members. My searches didn't reveal opinions on new offerings for the 45-70 so I thought I would swing it by. I am also new to the cartridge so I would like info from some folks at AH that have a point of reference from the old/ new cartridges offered.

 

[rooihond]

So, you know the debate has been revisited ad nauseum so why are you asking again? Why would you use it on dangerous game?

I fail to understand what the great fascination is for the 45-70. There is nothing it can do that a more modern cartridge can't do better. It doesn't matter what bullet or powder you use in it; there is still another more modern cartridge that with similar enhancements will do better. I doubt there is any self respecting African PH is carrying one. If you can afford to hunt dangerous game, you could also afford something better. So, what's the point? If you really have a burning love for the 45-70 and want to hunt dangerous game with it, I'm sure some PH will be happy to arrange it for you but he won't be carrying a 45-70 to back you up.

I felt the same way about the 9mm for use in combat. The new ammo offered nowadays brings things into a different light. The 9mm still is not my favorite but I give it a bit more credit and I don't look down on those that would trust their life to it.

What bad experiences have you had that showed that the 45-70 was lacking?

 

[Big5]

rooihond,

As an American I do understand the fascination and love for this cartridge. It has a very rich history of success in hunting all of North American big game species. Is it also capable of killing dangerous African game species? Sure it will, but so will many other less powerful cartridges including the 30-06 . But just because a particular cartridge has the capability of killing a particular animal with a well placed shot doesn't necessarily mean it is best suited for the task.

Garrett seems to place all of his stock in the ability of the 45-70 to penetrate well with modern day hot loads. But he seems to overlook or dismiss the matter of foot-pounds of kinetic energy. That's where the 45-70 is lacking when compared to highly accepted African dangerous game cartridges such as the .458 Win Mag.

Several of Africa's dangerous games species are thick skinned and have heavy bone. Men have hunted those thick skinned and heavy bone animals under a variety of conditions since the 45-70 came to be. Give some thought as to why in all those years the 45-70 never achieved any relevant history as an African dangerous game cartridge while many of the older English cartridges have remained popular to this day . . . just my two cents.

Good hunting to you!

 

[rooihond]

rooihond,

As an American I do understand the fascination and love for this cartridge. It has a very rich history of success in hunting all of North American big game species. Is it also capable of killing dangerous African game species? Sure it will, but so will many other less powerful cartridges including the 30-06 . But just because a particular cartridge has the capability of killing a particular animal with a well placed shot doesn't necessarily mean it is best suited for the task.

Garrett seems to place all of his stock in the ability of the 45-70 to penetrate well with modern day hot loads. But he seems to overlook or dismiss the matter of foot-pounds of kinetic energy. That's where the 45-70 is lacking when compared to highly accepted African dangerous game cartridges such as the .458 Win Mag.

Several of Africa's dangerous games species are thick skinned and have heavy bone. Men have hunted those thick skinned and heavy bone animals under a variety of conditions since the 45-70 came to be. Give some thought as to why in all those years the 45-70 never achieved any relevant history as an African dangerous game cartridge while many of the older English cartridges have remained popular to this day . . . just my two cents.

Good hunting to you!

Thank you, I do like the story of the 45-70 and hold a certain American pride as well.
I certainly understand and appreciate the difference between killing power and stopping power. Any cartridge under reasonable consideration can kill but would it be in time to stop the threat without having to rely on an impractical target area is the big question.

Most of the pros and cons that I find on the Internet seem to be biased on the marketing side or the emotional side. Sifting through the BS on the Internet can be difficult without prior knowledge or at least a trusted starting point.

I think my question would have been better posed as,"Has the 45-70 cartridge evolved or just been repackaged?".

Thanks for helping me weed out my ignorance.

As far as fascination goes, the .375 H&H holds that spot.

 

[Code4]

I think its a matter of perspective.

The 45-70 offers ballistics superior to Black powder and ball, which was an improvement on thin sharp sticks flung by thin pieces of string.

Where does it stop ? ..... just saying.

 

[bluey]

I think its a matter of perspective.

The 45-70 offers ballistics superior to Black powder and ball, which was an improvement on thin sharp sticks flung by thin pieces of string.

Where does it stop ? ..... just saying.

ha ha ha ha :thumb:

 

[Grumulkin]

I felt the same way about the 9mm for use in combat. The new ammo offered nowadays brings things into a different light. The 9mm still is not my favorite but I give it a bit more credit and I don't look down on those that would trust their life to it.

What bad experiences have you had that showed that the 45-70 was lacking?

OK, I'll confess; I have a 45-70 barrel for my Encore. In addition I carry a 9mm Parabellum and a 380 Auto. I consider the 380 Auto pretty underpowered but it best for concealment with certain types of clothing and is better than nothing. I consider the 9mm Parabellum more adequate but once again, it's not my first choice; if clothing permits, I'll be carrying something like a 40 S&W, a 357 Magnum, a 44 Magnum or maybe even a 460 S&W Magnum.

I believe the 45-70 if perfectly adequate for deer, groundhogs, bear, etc. The ridiculous thing is the same question as to whether it's a "dangerous game" cartridge comes up over and over with pretty much the same responses. The fact is are that in the current crowd of big bore cartridges (I'll include the 375 H&H Magnum here though I know in Africa it's considered a medium bore), the 45-70 is not going to be taken seriously as a dangerous game cartridge now or ever. Keep asking the same question and you'll get the same answer. It's also a fact that professional hunters in Africa have let clients shoot dangerous game with much less potent cartridges (even down to 6mm bore size that I've heard of) but that doesn't mean things like a 338 Winchester Magnum will ever be seriously taken for a dangerous game cartridge.

So, give the 45-70 the rest it deserves after all these years.

As far as black powder and sticks and string; they still use those on dangerous game but it's a stunt. I will start to be impressed when some intrepid bow hunter AND his PH go after an elephant both armed with bows.

There was a show on several years ago in which a bow hunter shot a grizzley. The grizzley got away so of course the next day they went to follow it up. Guess how many bows were in the follow up entourage? That would be zero.

 

[rooihond]

I think its a matter of perspective.

The 45-70 offers ballistics superior to Black powder and ball, which was an improvement on thin sharp sticks flung by thin pieces of string.

Where does it stop ? ..... just saying.

You're right. My best arrow isn't a match for the lowliest 45-70 round. Point taken. I think I just need to get out with my new lever gun and do some real world testing of my own. I hope that I can get out of the house on my next day off!

 

[rooihond]

OK, I'll confess; I have a 45-70 barrel for my Encore. In addition I carry a 9mm Parabellum and a 380 Auto. I consider the 380 Auto pretty underpowered but it best for concealment with certain types of clothing and is better than nothing. I consider the 9mm Parabellum more adequate but once again, it's not my first choice; if clothing permits, I'll be carrying something like a 40 S&W, a 357 Magnum, a 44 Magnum or maybe even a 460 S&W Magnum.

I believe the 45-70 if perfectly adequate for deer, groundhogs, bear, etc. The ridiculous thing is the same question as to whether it's a "dangerous game" cartridge comes up over and over with pretty much the same responses. The fact is are that in the current crowd of big bore cartridges (I'll include the 375 H&H Magnum here though I know in Africa it's considered a medium bore), the 45-70 is not going to be taken seriously as a dangerous game cartridge now or ever. Keep asking the same question and you'll get the same answer. It's also a fact that professional hunters in Africa have let clients shoot dangerous game with much less potent cartridges (even down to 6mm bore size that I've heard of) but that doesn't mean things like a 338 Winchester Magnum will ever be seriously taken for a dangerous game cartridge.

So, give the 45-70 the rest it deserves after all these years.

As far as black powder and sticks and string; they still use those on dangerous game but it's a stunt. I will start to be impressed when some intrepid bow hunter AND his PH go after an elephant both armed with bows.

There was a show on several years ago in which a bow hunter shot a grizzley. The grizzley got away so of course the next day they went to follow it up. Guess how many bows were in the follow up entourage? That would be zero.

Your thoughts on handgun cartridges appear to closely mirror mine.

The use and necessity of a potent back up rifle was outside of the scope of my thoughts on this, but I get your point.

 

[rooihond]

This leads me to another question. Are any members using these solids on any game or is it just an unnecessary product?

 

[enysse]

This leads me to another question. Are any members using these solids on any game or is it just an unnecessary product?

People use solids, they are very useful for elephant, hippo and Cape buffalo hunting. I'm sure you could use them on a croc too.

 

[rooihond]

People use solids, they are very useful for elephant, hippo and Cape buffalo hunting. I'm sure you could use them on a croc too.

enysse,

Thanks, do you mean specifically in 45-70? I was thinking from a perspective where it(45-70 solid) is not appropriate for DG but the right choice for other game animals.

 

[enysse]

Sorry, "The Garrett solids" I'm not sure.

The best way to test them is build a wood box and pack it with newspaper. You can use threaded rods to pull it tight. Wet the newspaper down if you want too.

 

[Grumulkin]

There would be two scenarios where a solid would be preferable in the 45-70 or any other cartridge:

1. If you needed maximum penetration.

2. To minimize meat and/or hide damage. At the velocity it would leave a 45-70, an expanding 500 grain bullet with a heavy jacket like a Woodleigh probably wouldn't expand much nor would it cause much hide damage so I doubt a solid would be of much advantage. If you were talking about bullets in the 300 to 350 grain range with thinner jackets and large metplates enginered for the 45-70 then you might get more hide damage on a small animal than you would like so a solid might be preferable.

 

[rooihond]

Sorry, "The Garrett solids" I'm not sure.

The best way to test them is build a wood box and pack it with newspaper. You can use threaded rods to pull it tight. Wet the newspaper down if you want too.

Thanks, that would be a good weekend project for me!

 

[rooihond]

There would be two scenarios where a solid would be preferable in the 45-70 or any other cartridge:

1. If you needed maximum penetration.

2. To minimize meat and/or hide damage. At the velocity it would leave a 45-70, an expanding 500 grain bullet with a heavy jacket like a Woodleigh probably wouldn't expand much nor would it cause much hide damage so I doubt a solid would be of much advantage. If you were talking about bullets in the 300 to 350 grain range with thinner jackets and large metplates enginered for the 45-70 then you might get more hide damage on a small animal than you would like so a solid might be preferable.

Thanks, minimizing damage to meat was what I was thinking. I am going to give them a try on a pig hunt.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

If I had the money for it, I would book a bowhunt for Cape Buffalo today.
And it would be totally fine by me if the PH stayed in the truck some hundreds of yards away.
I don't consider hunting a Cape Buffalo with a bow to be a stunt at all.
And I would feel much more comfortable with a bow in my hand when trying to shoot a buff than I would with a 45-70.
The penetration potential of a 45-70 is anemic. Also when compared with a stick and string.

 

[matt85]

im new to this forum but this is already the third question ive seen about using the 45-70 on DG. the horse is beaten so thoroughly you could clean it up with a wet vac. :beatingdeadhorse:

1. 45-70 is not legal to hunt DG with in most places.
2. the 45-70, no matter how hot you load it will not generate enough power to be considered serviceable for DG.
3. no, you cannot load your 45-70 to be even close to a 458 win mag. (ive heard three people try and claim this was possible in the last two months :joint

I love the 45-70, it was the cartridge I learned to reload on. I would happily use it on deer, hogs, black bear, moose, and even American buffalo. but there is a huge difference between hunting an American buffalo and hunting a cape buffalo so my 45-70 will stay home on my cape buffalo hunt. any one who can afford a DG hunt can afford a CZ 550 in .375 H&H, 416 rigby, 458 win, and 458 lott.

sorry about the rant. :rant:

-matt