Another 45-70 for Dangerous Game Question

[Red Leg]

If I had the money for it, I would book a bowhunt for Cape Buffalo today.
And it would be totally fine by me if the PH stayed in the truck some hundreds of yards away.
I don't consider hunting a Cape Buffalo with a bow to be a stunt at all.
And I would feel much more comfortable with a bow in my hand when trying to shoot a buff than I would with a 45-70.
The penetration potential of a 45-70 is anemic. Also when compared with a stick and string.

I feel exactly the same way you do with regard to the 45/70, but let's not get too carried away with the bow thing either. You may have vastly more experience than me hunting buffalo but I find having that PH along a mildly useful addition to the effort. I have killed dozens of deer with a bow and have enormous respect for their inherent abilities, but I have little expectation it would do anything at all to an in bound bull. Something that can happen no matter how carefully one places the first shot.

But with respect to your basic point, I absolutely agree. Penetration is everything. My personal comparison is that for buffalo I would rather use a .30 (200 gr) or .333 (250 gr) solid than any 45/70 load (or period .450/500 or .500 BP Express). The BP era .45's have all the deficiencies of greater frontal area with few of the advantages. The .318 WR Express was a well respected buffalo round in its solid 250 gr form. That was at a time when a host of BP era, large caliber martini, farquharson, and break-action rifles were gathering dust in closets. Can a 45/70 kill a buffalo? Sure. Just remember, when you pull that trigger, you have just assumed responsibility for not just yourself but also everyone in that party. I think there is an ethical responsibility to make that first shot as accurate and lethal as humanly possible. There are a host of good DG calibers, many with historic pedigrees if that is important, to accomplish that task.

 

[rooihond]

If I had the money for it, I would book a bowhunt for Cape Buffalo today.
And it would be totally fine by me if the PH stayed in the truck some hundreds of yards away.
I don't consider hunting a Cape Buffalo with a bow to be a stunt at all.
And I would feel much more comfortable with a bow in my hand when trying to shoot a buff than I would with a 45-70.
The penetration potential of a 45-70 is anemic. Also when compared with a stick and string.

Either way would be a thrill for me. Maybe the next time around I will go for one with string and stick.

 

[rooihond]

im new to this forum but this is already the third question ive seen about using the 45-70 on DG. the horse is beaten so thoroughly you could clean it up with a wet vac. :beatingdeadhorse:

1. 45-70 is not legal to hunt DG with in most places.
2. the 45-70, no matter how hot you load it will not generate enough power to be considered serviceable for DG.
3. no, you cannot load your 45-70 to be even close to a 458 win mag. (ive heard three people try and claim this was possible in the last two months :joint

I love the 45-70, it was the cartridge I learned to reload on. I would happily use it on deer, hogs, black bear, moose, and even American buffalo. but there is a huge difference between hunting an American buffalo and hunting a cape buffalo so my 45-70 will stay home on my cape buffalo hunt. any one who can afford a DG hunt can afford a CZ 550 in .375 H&H, 416 rigby, 458 win, and 458 lott.

sorry about the rant. :rant:

-matt

No need for apologies. Thanks for the opinion on ammo performance regardless of how it is loaded. I did intend this to be more of a question regarding the evolution of ammo as opposed to caliber comparisons.
Sorry for hitting a nerve. I didn't realize the Pandora's box I was opening.

 

[rooihond]

By the way, I was researching the ammo side of things, but thanks to everybody for all of the points I can use to plead my case for the purchase of another rifle. My other half always wants to know why I "need" another gun.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

rooihond, I do think that the development of bullets and gunpowder has made the 45-70 less anemic.
Specially with the new mono-metal bullets. Like the Barnes TSX bullets.
I think that is great for other big game with the 45-70, but not for critters like Buffalo, Rhino, Hippo and Elephant.
I am sure it can be done and the odds are more in your favor now than before, but there are far better medicine that can be used

Just tell your wife that big boys NEED new toys now and then

 

[Grumulkin]

The magic number is 3. Women count to 3. So if you have 3 rifles, they know how many you have. If you have more than 3, they know them as "those" rifles but don't know any more than that.

I got past the 3 a long time ago.

Some other pointers:

1. If you ever sell a gun, let it be well known. Be quieter about it if you buy one.

2. There is the dump truck principle. If you want a pickup, say you need a dump truck. When your beloved swoons, compromise and say you'll just get a pickup. So, if you want a 458 Lott, say you need a 50 BMG; then compromise.

3. It helps if a purchase is unnoticed for awhile. Then you can say you've had it for "a long time." Women can tell the metal a ring is made of and how much the diamond weighs from about 200 yards away but if it's a long gun, that's all they know, it's a long gun. You can hall out an Encore, a CZ 550 Safari Magnum, a 22 LR in succession and for all they know it's the same gun. Men, on the other hand can tell the barrel length and make of a gun from 200 yards away but wouldn't know a diamond from a cubic zirconia.

4. Then there is the economy principle. It always pays to buy the biggest gun first. Then you can get an additional smaller one because it's more economical to shoot.

You're welcome.

 

[sestoppelman]

If I had the money for it, I would book a bowhunt for Cape Buffalo today.
And it would be totally fine by me if the PH stayed in the truck some hundreds of yards away.
I don't consider hunting a Cape Buffalo with a bow to be a stunt at all.
And I would feel much more comfortable with a bow in my hand when trying to shoot a buff than I would with a 45-70.
The penetration potential of a 45-70 is anemic. Also when compared with a stick and string.

This is perhaps the silliest thing I have seen stated on this forum! Arrow over rifle, on buffalo? Preposterous! This bias against the .45-70 escapes me. I personally have no desire to go for DG with one but saying its not perfectly doable is silly.

So in your scenario; You stick an arrow, a good one, in your buff and he does not drop to the shot,(and he wont!), you are now facing a possible charge from said very pissed off buffalo. You have two choices, "stick and string", or rifle. Gonna stand by that statement? Didnt think so.

 

[rooihond]

rooihond, I do think that the development of bullets and gunpowder has made the 45-70 less anemic.
Specially with the new mono-metal bullets. Like the Barnes TSX bullets.
I think that is great for other big game with the 45-70, but not for critters like Buffalo, Rhino, Hippo and Elephant.
I am sure it can be done and the odds are more in your favor now than before, but there are far better medicine that can be used

Just tell your wife that big boys NEED new toys now and then

Thanks!, That is the kind of info I was looking for! I am not considering my 45-70 for DG or even plains game this go around. Just curious if its capabilities had expanded with new ammo. I'm actually bringing a bow and hiring a rifle due to some other considerations.
The Barnes ammo has caught my eye as it performs nicely in my 1911. I know pistol stuff is different but the quality seems to be acceptable.
I keep telling her but it only works about 50% of the time! I'm easing up on additional purchases so she will be ok with my upcoming trophy fees

 

[rooihond]

The magic number is 3. Women count to 3. So if you have 3 rifles, they know how many you have. If you have more than 3, they know them as "those" rifles but don't know any more than that.

I got past the 3 a long time ago.

Some other pointers:

1. If you ever sell a gun, let it be well known. Be quieter about it if you buy one.

2. There is the dump truck principle. If you want a pickup, say you need a dump truck. When your beloved swoons, compromise and say you'll just get a pickup. So, if you want a 458 Lott, say you need a 50 BMG; then compromise.

3. It helps if a purchase is unnoticed for awhile. Then you can say you've had it for "a long time." Women can tell the metal a ring is made of and how much the diamond weighs from about 200 yards away but if it's a long gun, that's all they know, it's a long gun. You can hall out an Encore, a CZ 550 Safari Magnum, a 22 LR in succession and for all they know it's the same gun. Men, on the other hand can tell the barrel length and make of a gun from 200 yards away but wouldn't know a diamond from a cubic zirconia.

4. Then there is the economy principle. It always pays to buy the biggest gun first. Then you can get an additional smaller one because it's more economical to shoot.

You're welcome.

I wanted to put a laughing smiley face but I'm a knuckledragger and I can't seem to locate it at this moment.
That is an outstanding list of pointers! I swear that shooters around the world have all received the same training for this! The thing is, my wife has become suspiciously good at identifying all of my toys. At least the other pointers can take the edge off of a purchase.
Oh here it is! Not the one I was looking for but good enough.

 

[Grumulkin]

This is perhaps the silliest thing I have seen stated on this forum! Arrow over rifle, on buffalo? Preposterous! This bias against the .45-70 escapes me. I personally have no desire to go for DG with one but saying its not perfectly doable is silly.

So in your scenario; You stick an arrow, a good one, in your buff and he does not drop to the shot,(and he wont!), you are now facing a possible charge from said very pissed off buffalo. You have two choices, "stick and string", or rifle. Gonna stand by that statement? Didnt think so.

Bow hunters are a unique sort. They have great expectations/delusions of what their arrow will do.

One PH I hunted with mentioned a prior hunter that had shot a lion with a bow. He lost a bit of confidence when the lion didn't die and was growling angrily.

I've taken one deer with a crossbow. Where I hit it, it would have been DRT with a 204 Ruger or even a 45-70. I waited and it didn't die. I kind of like things to expire quickly when I shoot them so, it appearing to be moribund, I approached to finish it off. It took off but fortunately, it being wounded, wasn't quite as fast as I. I, being a large lad, was able to run it down and pin it down and stab it with a knife thus putting it out of its misery.

So, for our intrepid hunter of cape buffalo with a bow, I would suggest keeping a good knife handy.

 

[enysse]

I wanted to put a laughing smiley face but I'm a knuckledragger and I can't seem to locate it at this moment.
That is an outstanding list of pointers! I swear that shooters around the world have all received the same training for this! The thing is, my wife has become suspiciously good at identifying all of my toys. At least the other pointers can take the edge off of a purchase.

My friend's wife takes pictured with serial #'s and anything she can get off the gun....I kinda pity the guy. lol

 

[sestoppelman]

Bow hunters are a unique sort. They have great expectations/delusions of what their arrow will do.

One PH I hunted with mentioned a prior hunter that had shot a lion with a bow. He lost a bit of confidence when the lion didn't die and was growling angrily.

I've taken one deer with a crossbow. Where I hit it, it would have been DRT with a 204 Ruger or even a 45-70. I waited and it didn't die. I kind of like things to expire quickly when I shoot them so, it appearing to be moribund, I approached to finish it off. It took off but fortunately, it being wounded, wasn't quite as fast as I. I, being a large lad, was able to run it down and pin it down and stab it with a knife thus putting it out of its misery.

So, for our intrepid hunter of cape buffalo with a bow, I would suggest keeping a good knife handy.

Agreed. Like I said it would not be my first choice either for DG, but with some loads in the right rifle (Ruger No.1), it can muster up some pretty impressive numbers. How does a 400gr bullet at over 2100fps with over 4000k of energy sound? Thats about the same type of load the much vaunted .450-400NE is. No you cant equal that easily in a lever rifle, even the strong 1895 Marlin, but you can come pretty close. Point is, with good ammo and bullets the old .45-70 does have the ability to hunt most dangerous game safely. Anyone who would choose a pointy stick over a good .45-70 load is loopy. Some try to push capabilities of various rounds too far and others disparage good rounds uneccessarily.

 

[rooihond]

My friend's wife takes pictured with serial #'s and anything she can get off the gun....I kinda pity the guy. lol

Holy cow! I feel bad for him, too!

 

[rooihond]

Bow hunters are a unique sort. They have great expectations/delusions of what their arrow will do.

One PH I hunted with mentioned a prior hunter that had shot a lion with a bow. He lost a bit of confidence when the lion didn't die and was growling angrily.

I've taken one deer with a crossbow. Where I hit it, it would have been DRT with a 204 Ruger or even a 45-70. I waited and it didn't die. I kind of like things to expire quickly when I shoot them so, it appearing to be moribund, I approached to finish it off. It took off but fortunately, it being wounded, wasn't quite as fast as I. I, being a large lad, was able to run it down and pin it down and stab it with a knife thus putting it out of its misery.

So, for our intrepid hunter of cape buffalo with a bow, I would suggest keeping a good knife handy.

Not me, I know the arrow may need time to do its work. Those would be some exciting moments with a lion.

 

[rooihond]

Agreed. Like I said it would not be my first choice either for DG, but with some loads in the right rifle (Ruger No.1), it can muster up some pretty impressive numbers. How does a 400gr bullet at over 2100fps with over 4000k of energy sound? Thats about the same type of load the much vaunted .450-400NE is. No you cant equal that easily in a lever rifle, even the strong 1895 Marlin, but you can come pretty close. Point is, with good ammo and bullets the old .45-70 does have the ability to hunt most dangerous game safely. Anyone who would choose a pointy stick over a good .45-70 load is loopy. Some try to push capabilities of various rounds too far and others disparage good rounds uneccessarily.

Those are the type of numbers I was talking about but questioning if it pans out in actual use.

 

[Big5]

. . . I would feel much more comfortable with a bow in my hand when trying to shoot a buff than I would with a 45-70.
The penetration potential of a 45-70 is anemic. Also when compared with a stick and string.

This is perhaps the silliest thing I have seen stated on this forum! Arrow over rifle, on buffalo? Preposterous! This bias against the .45-70 escapes me. I personally have no desire to go for DG with one but saying its not perfectly doable is silly.

You nailed it sestoppelman. I'm still shaking my head at the earlier comment.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

This is perhaps the silliest thing I have seen stated on this forum! Arrow over rifle, on buffalo? Preposterous! This bias against the .45-70 escapes me. I personally have no desire to go for DG with one but saying its not perfectly doable is silly.

So in your scenario; You stick an arrow, a good one, in your buff and he does not drop to the shot,(and he wont!), you are now facing a possible charge from said very pissed off buffalo. You have two choices, "stick and string", or rifle. Gonna stand by that statement? Didnt think so.

Please tell me how often do a Buffalo charge a hunter if his first shot is a good one?
I really would like to know, because I don't think I have ever read or heard a DG PH say that there is much chance for a charge if your first shot is a good killing shot.
It is when you start to track a wounded one, the real danger starts.
Please enlighten me if I am wrong.

When it comes to hunting Buffalo and even Elephant with a bow, I suggest you have a talk with Fritz Rabe that is a member on this forum.
I am sure he can tell you a lot about the penetration and killing capability of the bows today.

 

[sestoppelman]

Please tell me how often do a Buffalo charge a hunter if his first shot is a good one?
I really would like to know, because I don't think I have ever read or heard a DG PH say that there is much chance for a charge if your first shot is a good killing shot.
It is when you start to track a wounded one, the real danger starts.
Please enlighten me if I am wrong.

When it comes to hunting Buffalo and even Elephant with a bow, I suggest you have a talk with Fritz Rabe that is a member on this forum.
I am sure he can tell you a lot about the penetration and killing capability of the bows today.

I didnt say the buff WOULD charge, but that IF it did, the choice of rifle or arrow is a no brainer. I think Fritz would agree even if you dont.

 

[spike.t]

I didnt say the buff WOULD charge, but that IF it did, the choice of rifle or arrow is a no brainer. I think Fritz would agree even if you dont.

i think fritz would be carrying his .416 remington as back up.....and having seen buff shot with a "killing shot" but still run around a lot, including one shot with a .416 rigby with two shots, the first being a frontal shot through the heart and still run off wait and then charge(we couldnt believe it when the skinner brought the heart to show us what the first shot had done) i would prefer something more than a stick with a point on the end.........

 

[Norwegianwoods]

I didnt say the buff WOULD charge, but that IF it did, the choice of rifle or arrow is a no brainer. I think Fritz would agree even if you dont.

I totally agree that a rifle would be better IF the buff charges.
The fact is as far as I know, extremely rare that a buff charges just after being shot at.

I guess I am not smart enough to worry about something that happens extremely seldom

If I was going after a wounded buff in some thick stuff, my choice of weapon would not be a bow