Any Info on this Double Rifle manufacturer - Raick Freres” and “Liege, Belgium”

[Sarg]

Ah yes I thought it would be the same one as I knew in the NT, normally use the 160gr maybe 156gr bullets in these & normally found in bolt action Steyrs, surprised it regulates with a light bullet ? .

I have several of them & as I said use the same loads in my 1903 Mannlicher Schonauer's in 6.5X54 as the 6.5X53R is just a rimmed version of the 54.

I think this may have shot a Buffalo or two as well ?

If I remember correctly there was another Raick Freres Double for sale in Aussie in 375Ex 2.5in a while back.

Now I'm thinking which one was in the NT, but I think it was the 6.5 ?

Well bugger me there has been a heap of them for sale in Aussie, found two in .375Fl & three shotguns

The .375's were from $6800 to $13000 & the shotguns were from $650 to $1200.

One of the .375's was scoped to .

Actully @Nembwe I think it is a bit much in these times, in Australia & in this odd ball caliber.

Not hard to make cases from new 303 Brit but effects the price I believe ?

 

[Deleted member 46122]

Ah yes I thought it would be the same one as I knew in the NT, normally use the 160gr maybe 156gr bullets in these & normally found in bolt action Steyrs, surprised it regulates with a light bullet ? .

I have several of them & as I said use the same loads in my 1903 Mannlicher Schonauer's in 6.5X54 as the 6.5X53R is just a rimmed version of the 54.

I think this may have shot a Buffalo or two as well ?

If I remember correctly there was another Raick Freres Double for sale in Aussie in 375Ex 2.5in a while back.

Now I'm thinking which one was in the NT, but I think it was the 6.5 ?

Well bugger me there has been a heap of them for sale in Aussie, found two in .375Fl & three shotguns

The .375's were from $6800 to $13000 & the shotguns were from $650 to $1200.

One of the .375's was scoped to .

View attachment 463283

Actully @Nembwe I think it is a bit much in these times, in Australia & in this odd ball caliber.

Not hard to make cases from new 303 Brit but effects the price I believe ?

I have a Sauer Hammer Gun in 6.5x54/.410 combination. Will try to send photos later. I use it a bunch for Hare/Grouse here in Alaska.

 

[Nembwe]

Good day Gents

I was able to go and take a look and feel the 6.5mm x 54 Double rifle and it was really in good shape, the entire mechanism opened and closed tight with little to no movement, barrels looks very clean. safety catch and opening lever worked a treat, a very clean rifle indeed.
@rookhawk I was able to get a few pictures of the barrels as well as the markings, although they didn't come out to well apologies,
I got the barrel markings as well and they mentioned "nitro proved" as well as the "for Kynoch 6.5 (.256) mannlicher rimmed".

One thing that caught my attention was on the barrels it has 6.3 stamped yet on the block it has 6.5 stamped any explanations Gents??

@VertigoBE
There are a number of other marks hopefully this can assist with the date and or year of manufacture

@Sarg
You mentioned 6.5x54 I believe it is this and not the 6.5x53 as previously mentioned to me.

The rounds used are a trimmed down 303 round, I am waiting on reloading info to confirm loads . AR 2209 was the powder used with 129g Hornady.

See pictures' below. Any advice gents would be greatly appreciated. Asking A$ 6000 and US$4600???

 

[VertigoBE]

@Nembwe : thanks for these additional pictures!


@rookhawk: perhaps you can correct me, but that looks like the Greek letter beta on the two barrels, which would put the rifle at 1949?

 

[rookhawk]

Not completely sure on the date code. It looks like a cursive E to me which is 1926, but it could also be a 1949 Greek Beta mark as well.

1926 would be very, very late for Damascus barrels but Liege was still building with tubes made from pre-ww1 and it IS possible. I see some swirls under the forend that could be fingerprints or it could be Damascus bleeding through the barrel black. I’d want to look that over very carefully. If it proves to be a 1949 date code it would be virtually impossible to be Damascus.

 

[rookhawk]

@Nembwe regarding the decimals you are seeing that are 6.3 versus 6.5, no worries there. Some cultures notated the bore diameter, others the groove diameter, others sorta rounded up and down. It is a 256 Mannlicher Rimmed and was one since the onset.

I tend to believe its a 1926 gun because the cartridge was going out of fashion by the post-war era and also by the general look of the gun, but there are exceptions to every generalization.

 

[rookhawk]

Postscript. Definitely 1926 made. More pitting than I thought and damage to the loop. -$500-$800 from prior value estimate. Don’t think its Damascus Because there are fingerprints elsewhere, but I’d really want to take a closer look to be 100%.

 

[VertigoBE]

@Nembwe definitely do one thing, disregard anything I say, if @rookhawk is not in agreement with it

I’m still a young padawan compared to the wize yoda that is @rookhawk but I’m trying to learn too!

 

[rookhawk]

@Nembwe definitely do one thing, disregard anything I say, if @rookhawk is not in agreement with it

I’m still the young padawan in front of the wize yoda

There’s something very wrong when a Belgian says don’t listen to a Belgian when speaking about Belgian guns, listen to the loud mouthed American instead.

The thing about vintage guns is there are no bold experts with excellent collections. Any one person no matter how experienced makes egregious errors that can cost them a fortune. A number of critical people (in the positive sense) all looking something over in aggregate usually flesh out the truth pretty swiftly. @Red Leg knows more than a thing or two and has helped me avoid several mistakes on guns as just one member reference you might ask to weigh in on this rifle.

To become an expert on vintage guns you just have to spend tens of thousands of dollars poorly making bad decisions. You give someone money, they give you experience! I hope others do not have to gain their experience at the tremendous sums I paid in tuition.

Another point to remember about this gun and any other. Don’t be cheap. Buy the very best gun you can afford. At the $4000 price point people will buy about anything, good or bad, with lots of competition for guns at that price point. If that’s what you can afford, then you’re stuck with what the market has available. However, if you can afford $8000 or $12000 you’re in rarefied air financially speaking and there is a lot less demand for guns at those price points. As a consequence of market forces, you’re not getting a 2x or 3x better gun for 2x to 3x the money, you‘re getting possibly a 20x better gun.

The gun looks like fun and it doesn’t look horribly defective. It will clean up to some extent but you cannot undo the barrel pitting and it cannot endure a full restoration. Nor would a full restoration make sense because it was a low-grade or utility grade double rifle when original and a restoration of a best grade or a low grade is approximately the same costs.

So now that we’ve established its condition, caliber, country of origin, manufacture date, and proof marks, what are you going to do?

 

[VertigoBE]

There’s something very wrong when a Belgian says don’t listen to a Belgian when speaking about Belgian guns, listen to the loud mouthed American instead.

Expertise is the only thing that counts, and I pride myself in recognising it in others

The thing about vintage guns is there are no bold experts with excellent collections. Any one person no matter how experienced makes egregious errors that can cost them a fortune. A number of critical people (in the positive sense) all looking something over in aggregate usually flesh out the truth pretty swiftly. @Red Leg knows more than a thing or two and has helped me avoid several mistakes on guns as just one member reference you might ask to weigh in on this rifle.

To become an expert on vintage guns you just have to spend tens of thousands of dollars poorly making bad decisions. You give someone money, they give you experience! I hope others do not have to gain their experience at the tremendous sums I paid in tuition.

Which matches greatly with a mantra I have kept my entire life: “the best (cheapest, or best ROI) lessons are learned from mistakes someone else makes and you learn from!

Another point to remember about this gun and any other. Don’t be cheap. Buy the very best gun you can afford. At the $4000 price point people will buy about anything, good or bad, with lots of competition for guns at that price point. If that’s what you can afford, then you’re stuck with what the market has available. However, if you can afford $8000 or $12000 you’re in rarefied air financially speaking and there is a lot less demand for guns at those price points. As a consequence of market forces, you’re not getting a 2x or 3x better gun for 2x to 3x the money, you‘re getting possibly a 20x better gun.

@Nembwe check the thread “Look what AH made me buy” for an insight into how much I trust the judgement of @rookhawk

 

[Nembwe]

Thanks again Gents
I have another picture with a slightly better quality and it would seem that the symbols are a bit clearer.

Any thoughts on the year and I see the name Mr R. BLINDEE could this be the person for whom the rifle was made ??

Thanks again

 

[rookhawk]

Thanks again Gents
I have another picture with a slightly better quality and it would seem that the symbols are a bit clearer.
View attachment 464155
Any thoughts on the year and I see the name Mr R. BLINDEE could this be the person for whom the rifle was made ??

Thanks again

B. Blindee is a proof mark. I believe it means for jacketed bullets but @VertigoBE can confirm what that means in French or Flemish.

It’s on all Belgian rifle barrels unless they were smooth bore in which case they would say flobert instead.

 

[VertigoBE]

B. Blindee is a proof mark. I believe it means for jacketed bullets but @VertigoBE can confirm what that means in French or Flemish.

It’s on all Belgian rifle barrels unless they were smooth bore in which case they would say flobert instead.

Indeed, balles blindees is French for Full metal jacket bullets, or solids if you will.

Concerning if it is Damascus, I do not believe so because of the acier Securitas stamp. Basically safety steel.

 

[rookhawk]

Indeed, balles blindees is French for Full metal jacket bullets, or solids if you will.

Concerning if it is Damascus, I do not believe so because of the acier Securitas stamp. Basically safety steel.

This is why Europeans are so handy to have around. Multi-lingual!!! Thanks for pointing out Acier Securitas as that lays to rest that it is fluid compressed steel!

 

[Hunter-Habib]

The company was in business until 1952. They made hammer shotguns, hammerless shotguns, paradox guns and double rifles. They made a lot of the lower priced hammer shotguns for R.B. Rodda & Co. Today, their wares can still be found in Pakistani and Bengali gun stores (in varying conditions).

Their double rifles were built on boxlock actions which were not as a strong as those of the more expensive Belgian makers. For this reason, they were chambered in calibers like the .375 Nitro Express and the .405 Winchester as opposed to the more powerful British big game calibers.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

A Raick Freres Paradox Hammer Gun in 12 Gauge 3", which has definitely seen far better days.

 

[Nembwe]

Hi HH
Thanks for the input, the rifle has been purchased and I will forward some better pictures once it is in my hands.
My rifle does not look like that one wow its must be 100+ years old.

@rookhawk
@VertigoBE
@Sarg

Many thanks to you all for the contribution, I will have a update as soon as the paper work is done and I have the rifle in my possession.

Thanks again Gents very much appreciated.

N