Any Problems with "Heym"?

[SStomcat]

Wow! Far fetched? I think not. You just keep bad mouthing Heym doubles and drive down their prices...

Did I write that Heym doubles are the best doubles ever made? No, but overall they are the highest quality double that I can afford.

The Heym that reportedly doubled was not the OP's, it was his PH's. I am not doubting the OP but it wasn't his gun, nor him shooting it.
Did the PH'd gun double? Probably. I doubled a Chapuis but I accept it was my operating error.
I have shot my 1986 Heym 88B a recorded 500 rounds in the last two years. Lord knows how many rounds the previous owner shot it. No problems with my Heym. One item does not however make a good sample set for a statistic analysis. Ten is normally a minimum and 50 is far better than 10.

Did one Heym frame crack from firing Lord knows what for ammunition? There are photos of a cracked frame.

Do we have reports from long term members who regularly provide positive contributions to this forum that their Heym double and/or frames crack?

Hearsay from me? Nope, just stating facts, or lack there of. In a court of law stating that someone told you of an incident would normally be hearsay. All the lawyers reading this please correct me if I am wrong.

Also, all those members who have personally had their Heym double please join. I really want used Heym prices to fall.

I have never bad mouthed Heym, all I'm questioning is do they qualify as best overall double and if so why do you think so in comparison to Londons best. Not interested to start an argument with you here.

 

[SStomcat]

The Heym that reportedly doubled was not the OP's, it was his PH's. I am not doubting the OP but it wasn't his gun, nor him shooting it.

Here is what Safari Dave wrote-

I got a Heym 88B in .470 NE back in 2000. It doubled on me when I pulled the rear trigger first, shortly after I got it. I staggered around "punch drunk" for about 30 minutes.

 

[rookhawk]

I have never bad mouthed Heym, all I'm questioning is do they qualify as best overall double and if so why do you think so in comparison to Londons best. Not interested to start an argument with you here.

On a serviceability standpoint, if your gun had a latent defect and blew apart in some way, who would be most inclined to take it back and build you a new one? While I do not know if Purdey, Holland, or Westley would do so, I'm sure Heym would do so. A.) Heym has the volume to insert another gun into the production schedule, the London Bests are on skeleton crew and its unclear when they'd slip you in for a replacement in the future years if they wanted to do so. B.) Heym is German, and playing to valid stereotype they'd want the gun back to tear it apart and figure out what went wrong in typical German engineering mentality.

I definitely want to see the pics and hear the story of the cracked heym receiver because that's an extraordinary event to occur. Far more unlikely with Heyms that are mass produced with state of the art heat treating than a bone and charcoal CCH method in London that went awry one day in a private workshop.

 

[rookhawk]

Here is what Safari Dave wrote-

I got a Heym 88B in .470 NE back in 2000. It doubled on me when I pulled the rear trigger first, shortly after I got it. I staggered around "punch drunk" for about 30 minutes.

If that is true: A.) The guy pulled the wrong trigger first but you can't explain that to African PHs. B.) The front trigger was too light to handle the recoil and wouldn't have likely been an uncovered defect in test firing it correctly. I stated it backwards early in the thread, a front trigger is softer than a rear trigger by about 2 pounds. Your first shot requires the precision, the second shot requires the gun to not double by recoil or being strummed by the shooter.

 

[SStomcat]

So the Heym isn't the best around as that's way too broad a statement. (Two of them behind me in a cabinet as I write this, a third I sold). The Heym is the least expensive double rifle in the world that has the RELIABILITY and ACCURACY on par with a London Best.

Saying it a different way, it's the least expensive double rifle in the world that many people would bet their life upon.

Saying it yet another way from another angle, It's a lot of gun for $25,000.

Saying it a final way from an aesthetic perspective. While the 88B was a Fugly gun compared to an English designed weapon, it is well crafted and meets all reasonable requirements other than attractiveness. Obviously with the recent 89B the Fugliness of their design was resolved by creating an Anglo-aesthetic version of a similar action.

Postscript: I feel quite youthful today being able to us the word Fugly in a sentence.

You have your points and I respect that. When I was in the market I did look at Krieghoff, Heym and few Londons best, I settled on the big five, bcoz I felt that was the best value for money and I'm very happy just as you are with your Heym.
Cosmetics, bells and whistles are secondary to me in a hunting rifle and I found the K gun to be solid in every sense,I chose to keep the 9K that I plan to use for my next safari.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

I have never bad mouthed Heym, all I'm questioning is do they qualify as best overall double and if so why do you think so in comparison to Londons best. Not interested to start an argument with you here.

Accusing me of telling "Far Fetched" stories isn't a way to make friends.
I am normally anally exact to the point of being Captain Obvious.

I got a Heym 88B in .470 NE back in 2000. It doubled on me when I pulled the rear trigger first, shortly after I got it. I staggered around "punch drunk" for about 30 minutes.

I sent it back to New England Custom Guns and they tweaked the sear of the action of the other barrel.

I used a dummy round in the right barrel for a year to regain confidence and it has never happened again.

Every gun can have issues, but I think a Heym is the best double available.

Let's review Dave's post.
His Heym doubled on him.
He sent it back to NECG for a sear/trigger pull adjustment.
It never doubled again.
He concludes,
"Every gun can have issues, but I think a Heym is the best double available."

As I stated previously, I had a Chapuis double on me and I took responsibility that my operator error was the cause. It never doubled on again. Chapuis makes a good double but my money is on Heym (when I can afford it).

 

[SStomcat]

If that is true: A.) The guy pulled the wrong trigger first but you can't explain that to African PHs. B.) The front trigger was too light to handle the recoil and wouldn't have likely been an uncovered defect in test firing it correctly. I stated it backwards early in the thread, a front trigger is softer than a rear trigger by about 2 pounds. Your first shot requires the precision, the second shot requires the gun to not double by recoil or being strummed by the shooter.

Thought Heym came with intercepting sears... wasn't this supposed to intercept Yes/No?

 

[rookhawk]

Thought Heym came with intercepting sears... wasn't this supposed to intercept Yes/No?

I haven't taken mine apart to see if it has intercepting sears. I had assumed not, that the hammers would be parked on the sears as the safety is just a standard blocking safety. Typically to overcome this standard "double gun" design you need a cocking safety. The small Heyms have it and the Krieghoffs have it. I think the Blasers had it. My heym bolt gun had it. (Love the idea of the increased safety, absolutely hate the functionality)

Postscript: Heym's website says the 88B has intercepting sears. No idea how they work considering the minimal effort required to move the safety.

 

[SStomcat]

Accusing me of telling "Far Fetched" stories isn't a way to make friends.
I am normally anally exact to the point of being Captain Obvious.

Accusing everyone to be silly for relying on Internet is not ideal either. I always read reviews before I buy on the net, both the good bad and ugly. IS that silly behaviour as you proclaim? I don't think so, your long diatribe against anyone who has a different opinion proves that you can't a meaningful discussion without going ballistic...

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Accusing everyone to be silly for relying on Internet is not ideal either. I always read reviews before I buy on the net, both the good bad and ugly. IS that silly behaviour as you proclaim? I don't think so, your long diatribe against anyone who has a different opinion proves that you can't a meaningful discussion without going ballistic...

I do think that anyone who bases their opinion on one data point is being silly. That's better than foolish isn't it?

You just keep bad mouthing Heym... I will thank you for it!

 

[SStomcat]

I do think that anyone who bases their opinion on one data point is being silly. That's better than foolish isn't it?

You just keep bad mouthing Heym... I will thank you for it!

Show me where I have bad mouthed Heym, you seem to be funny, no thanks

 

[SStomcat]

And a barrel,frame or action cracking during firing is a serious issue, one proven data point is enough not to be silly/foolish as you think.

 

[VertigoBE]

This is starting to become a fun thread!

While I could personally dream of a London best .500NE, my wallet will only allow for a lower budgeted one. Among those new doubles with more realistic pricing, Heym and Krieghoff are probably the only ones I would consider, as I have read many more negative stories about other brands than those two. The Germans seem to be good at their engineering, who knew?

The better question to ask in my opinion, is in that 20-25k price point, is one better off with a new Heym/Krieghoff, or try to find a used, old London best or similar, like the double from WR, sold by Dorleac&Dorleac that one of our AH members picked up recently. (That one was 15k€ though if I’m not mistaken)

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Trying to be as unbiased as possible here. But let's crunch up some numbers (just to put matters into perspective).

-Merkel doubles have been documented to double discharge
- Verney Carron doubles have been documented to have headspacing and regulation issues
- Sabatti doubles have been documented to have regulation issues
- Kreighoff doubles have been documented to double discharge
- Butch Searcy doubles have been documented to have their barrels split
- Holland & Holland doubles have been docented to have their barrels split
- Westley Richards doubles have been documented to have their barrels bulge when firing monolithic solids
- Rigby doubles have been documented to double discharge

My point is that machines (like people) aren't perfect. What matters is how the company opts to remedy the problem. In this thread, I've come across four cases of Heym double rifles malfunctioning ( Two in .500 NE, one in .470 NE and one in an unknown caliber). Three were cases of double discharges and one is a case of a split action (and we still don't know the exact circumstancs behind the action splitting). At any rate, this is far less than (say) Merkel or Butch Searcy.

I do know that in at least one of the cases, Mr. Chris Sells (of Heym) immediately took to examining one of the .500 Nitro Express double rifles that doubled and have the necessary repairs made. He also said that Heym double rifles are NOT supposed to double discharge REGARDLESS OF WHICH TRIGGER IS PULLED FIRST. I also have personally seen that most of my white hunters who prefer double rifles, opt for (more often than not) a Heym.

As stated before, my personal experience with a Heym Jumbo sidelock ejector .600 Nitro Express has been nothing short of pleasant. I used it to take a hippo on land and also fired off six rounds in camp. I experimented with pulling the front trigger first sometimes and also pulling the rear trigger first sometimes. No double discharges.

I personally would happily buy their products.

 

[rookhawk]

This is starting to become a fun thread!

While I could personally dream of a London best .500NE, my wallet will only allow for a lower budgeted one. Among those new doubles with more realistic pricing, Heym and Krieghoff are probably the only ones I would consider, as I have read many more negative stories about other brands than those two. The Germans seem to be good at their engineering, who knew?

The better question to ask in my opinion, is in that 20-25k price point, is one better off with a new Heym/Krieghoff, or try to find a used, old London best or similar, like the double from WR, sold by Dorleac&Dorleac that one of our AH members picked up recently. (That one was 15k€ though if I’m not mistaken)

You ask reasonable questions and there does indeed come into play considerations of tastes and personal preferences. In addition, relative resale value for those that have changing interests or may aspire to "upgrade" later on.

These are my opinions based upon aesthetics and resale value, not functionality.

1.) Heyms in standard 88B configuration are ugly. They did make some that were not ugly through rounding the action, prudent engraving, or adding sideplates, or being true sidelocks. But be that as it may, it effected their marketshare in default configuration enough that they made the 89B which is a stunningly "British" rifle. Nonetheless, Heyms hold their values better than any other double rifle in the world, bar none. A used $12,000-$17,000 Heym is a LOT of gun for the money. When/If resold at a later date, the buyer can pretty much count on a return of most or all their money if they bought one used. If they bought a new one, they may have lost only 30% which is unprecedented. Interestingly enough, the base PH model 88B that most agree is fairly ugly still holds its value. Proof that good looks can be trumped by professional reputation.

2.) Krieghoffs have their fanbase. It's a pretty specific circle that buys them. Every owner I know personally is active into K80 collecting and live pigeon shooting. Retired guys that like K-guns so they bought more K-guns. They have a very ingenious safety system that is loved by some and loathed by many. Of all the double rifles, they hold their values the worst. If we are talking about pretty/ugly debates, the majority find Krieghoffs to be the most amateurish in their engraving and contoured lines. A reader may love them, but the market votes them as both ugly and as peculiar in their safety when it comes to resale value.

3.) For value and longterm appreciation, the market deems the English guns to be the most beautiful and to hold their tertiary resale value to be the highest. The problems are A.) You need to know what you're buying as a heavily restored gun poorly executed has little worth, B.) While any skilled gunsmith can service an Anson & Deeley boxlock, you've likely got no original manufacturer to run back to if something catastrophic happens to a vintage gun, C.) Most are wholly incompatible with modern mono-metal solids which diminishes utility. @Rare Breed recently made an excellent purchase of an ideal restored example and I'd say the tradeoff of not using monometals was a pretty good surrender of requirements in exchange to own and hunt with a gun of that overall quality and aesthetic standard. The inefficient marketplace resulted in him buying something low in one region (Safari gun sold in France) to be acquired in a place of low supply and stronger demand. ('Merica)

Like boats, people can fall in love with any which one they want and nobody can undermine your personal opinion of what is beautiful. But if resale is ever a consideration, like boats, most guns lose a fortune because personal tastes are trumped by blue-book values of the broader market.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

There are no absolutes in this world, no 100% reliability all the time. What we can say is that one can reduce the probability of a malfunction to a very small figure by:
1. Engineering design that brings functionality through strength.
2. Using superior materials, metallurgically suitable for the application.
3. Quality control that ensures that no glitches get through.

The Germans are very good at all three, and Heym doubles in particular from my external examination of many of them appears to be without fault.
As others have said a doubling may be due to very many reasons - dirt, rust, inadvertant strumming (yes, we all say we are sure we didn't, but..). But that broken action we have all seen was definitely broken. Since it is an isolated incident, the only one we know of, then it is likely to have been down to either a material deficiency or a very, very high pressure. If the rifle was returned to Heym they could have figured that out from a few polished sections in minutes, metal failure analysis is like reading an open book.

@Chris Sells please can you do a bit of an investigation and let us know what transpired? There is no shame in a problem, things happen, but an explained problem is already a solution.

 

[Inline6]

There are no absolutes in this world, no 100% reliability all the time. What we can say is that one can reduce the probability of a malfunction to a very small figure by:
1. Engineering design that brings functionality through strength.
2. Using superior materials, metallurgically suitable for the application.
3. Quality control that ensures that no glitches get through.

The Germans are very good at all three, and Heym doubles in particular from my external examination of many of them appears to be without fault.
As others have said a doubling may be due to very many reasons - dirt, rust, inadvertant strumming (yes, we all say we are sure we didn't, but..). But that broken action we have all seen was definitely broken. Since it is an isolated incident, the only one we know of, then it is likely to have been down to either a material deficiency or a very, very high pressure. If the rifle was returned to Heym they could have figured that out from a few polished sections in minutes, metal failure analysis is like reading an open book.

@Chris Sells please can you do a bit of an investigation and let us know what transpired? There is no shame in a problem, things happen, but an explained problem is already a solution.

100% Guarantee none of us make it out alive.

Do what makes you happy and what fits your budget. We are only here for a short time enjoy it while you can.

 

[The Engineer]

My first dangerous game double was a new 470NE Merkel. It definately doubled on me several times. I replaced it with a used Heym 470NE 88b and it is the rifle in the picture with the buffalo.

Later I found a really clean 458 Win. Heym 88b. The 458 cartridge is not a problem but I had a Chapuis 30-06 double that would not extract/eject the right barrel as the extraction for rimless or belted magnum cases is dependent on small spring loaded pins engaging the case rim. Especially for dangerous game, rimmed cartridges provide a much more positive exraction/ejection so I had JJ convert it to 450NE and re-regulate. After introduction to the new Heym 89b at Chris's shoot I ordered one in 450NE. As I handload and like the selection of .458 bullets.

None of the Heyms have given me any problems or doubled and I do appreciate the interupting sears as the will prevent a jar off discharge such as might happen if you fall with rifle or drop it. The interupting sear should also prevent doubling due to mechanical problems but an interupting sear WILL NOT prevent doubling from operator error.

The above does leave me with a Heym 88b in 450NE that I would sell with 100rds of factory Hornady ammo and a set of dies for $12,500.

 

[Safari Dave]

Of course, I would rather have a Holland & Holland!

But, I've never had $100K+ to spend on a rifle.


Yeah, maybe it's not the absolutely best double ever produced on the planet, but of the "moderately" priced doubles that are available today (Merkel, Krighhoff, Chapuis, Searcy, Sabatti, etc.), I believe it is the one of highest quality.

I don't think there is a double that can be had for less than $25K, that is of better quality, and I've handled and looked very closely at several.

I highly doubt there has never been a H&H, Rigby, etc. from England's best that has never doubled.

I would buy another Heym, no doubt.

 

[sureshot375]

You ask reasonable questions and there does indeed come into play considerations of tastes and personal preferences. In addition, relative resale value for those that have changing interests or may aspire to "upgrade" later on.

These are my opinions based upon aesthetics and resale value, not functionality.

1.) Heyms in standard 88B configuration are ugly. They did make some that were not ugly through rounding the action, prudent engraving, or adding sideplates, or being true sidelocks. But be that as it may, it effected their marketshare in default configuration enough that they made the 89B which is a stunningly "British" rifle. Nonetheless, Heyms hold their values better than any other double rifle in the world, bar none. A used $12,000-$17,000 Heym is a LOT of gun for the money. When/If resold at a later date, the buyer can pretty much count on a return of most or all their money if they bought one used. If they bought a new one, they may have lost only 30% which is unprecedented. Interestingly enough, the base PH model 88B that most agree is fairly ugly still holds its value. Proof that good looks can be trumped by professional reputation.

2.) Krieghoffs have their fanbase. It's a pretty specific circle that buys them. Every owner I know personally is active into K80 collecting and live pigeon shooting. Retired guys that like K-guns so they bought more K-guns. They have a very ingenious safety system that is loved by some and loathed by many. Of all the double rifles, they hold their values the worst. If we are talking about pretty/ugly debates, the majority find Krieghoffs to be the most amateurish in their engraving and contoured lines. A reader may love them, but the market votes them as both ugly and as peculiar in their safety when it comes to resale value.

3.) For value and longterm appreciation, the market deems the English guns to be the most beautiful and to hold their tertiary resale value to be the highest. The problems are A.) You need to know what you're buying as a heavily restored gun poorly executed has little worth, B.) While any skilled gunsmith can service an Anson & Deeley boxlock, you've likely got no original manufacturer to run back to if something catastrophic happens to a vintage gun, C.) Most are wholly incompatible with modern mono-metal solids which diminishes utility. @Rare Breed recently made an excellent purchase of an ideal restored example and I'd say the tradeoff of not using monometals was a pretty good surrender of requirements in exchange to own and hunt with a gun of that overall quality and aesthetic standard. The inefficient marketplace resulted in him buying something low in one region (Safari gun sold in France) to be acquired in a place of low supply and stronger demand. ('Merica)

Like boats, people can fall in love with any which one they want and nobody can undermine your personal opinion of what is beautiful. But if resale is ever a consideration, like boats, most guns lose a fortune because personal tastes are trumped by blue-book values of the broader market.

I have to disagree with you on the k guns. I think that are on par with Heym. The cocking system is a matter of preference. If you look at what a base model cost in the 90s vs what the gun sells for on the used market, they hold their value. Neither brand holds its value as well on models with upgraded wood or engraving. Also, krieghoff doesn’t put nearly as much effort in marketing. The rifles Are a drop in the bucket compared to their shotgun sales.