Aside from the 375H&H, which dangerous game cartridge has taken the most game?

[Northern Shooter]

Basically what's second runner to the 375H&H in terms of popularity and African game taken?

416 Rem Mag?

458 Win Mag?

470 Nitro Express?

 

[jlb1036]

416 rigby

 

[Hunter-Habib]

.458 Winchester Magnum (even though I don't care for it much)

Take into consideration that it was used by the elephant culling teams in the 1970s and 1980s to take thousands of elephants. It also saw extensive use for the Cape buffalo eradication culls. This was at a time when (barring the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum), no other dangerous game calibers were having commercially loaded ammunition available for them. So they did use it out of compulsion.

But still.

During my African safaris between 1974 and 1984, the .458 Winchester Magnum was universally adopted by white hunters and game department officers in Africa as their dangerous game caliber. The National Parks in Zimbabwe were issuing Fabrique Nationale Mausers (pre '62 control round feed) in this caliber, as well as pre '64 Winchester Model 70 rifles in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum.

 

[WAB]

Almost certainly the 9.3x62. I’ll bet it surpasses the .375 H&H given its history.

 

[Wheels]

A number of years ago I had the opportunity to look through the firearms registration ledgers from Colonial Kenya. Everyone who had a firearm(s) theoretically was registered. My preconceived notion was that it would be full of .375, 425, 404, 9.3, .470. I was way wrong. If a page contained 15 lines, probably 13-14 lines were the good old .303. There was an occasional shotgun, .22 or maybe a .375. In talking with some old time Tanzanians, they figured the ratio was probably accurate throughout East Africa. The professional hunters would have used mid/large bore but it seems the settlers used the .303 for all animals including lion, leopard, buffalo, rhino and elephant. There were a lot more settlers than professional hunters.

It would be interesting to know if those numbers could be extrapolated throughout all of British Colonial Africa.

I would guess that the .303 has taken more DG than even the .375. At least in British Africa.

 

[WAB]

A number of years ago I had the opportunity to look through the firearms registration ledgers from Colonial Kenya. Everyone who had a firearm(s) theoretically was registered. My preconceived notion was that it would be full of .375, 425, 404, 9.3, .470. I was way wrong. If a page contained 15 lines, probably 13-14 lines were the good old .303. There was an occasional shotgun, .22 or maybe a .375. In talking with some old time Tanzanians, they figured the ratio was probably accurate throughout East Africa. The professional hunters would have used mid/large bore but it seems the settlers used the .303 for all animals including lion, leopard, buffalo, rhino and elephant. There were a lot more settlers than professional hunters.

It would be interesting to know if those numbers could be extrapolated throughout all of British Colonial Africa.

I would guess that the .303 has taken more DG than even the .375. At least in British Africa.

Agreed, probably the .303 in British colonies and 7x57 and 9.3x62 in German.

 

[Wheels]

416 rigby

Pretty sure that Rigby made less than 200 .416's prior to WWII.

Post war, Robert Ruark is going on safari with Harry Selby. Selby has broken his 470 on the previous hunt. A 416 Rigby is the only DG rifle available so Selby buys it. Ruark writes about what a fantastic rifle the 416 Rigby is and every American has to have one.

 

[WAB]

Pretty sure that Rigby made less than 200 .416's prior to WWII.

Post war, Robert Ruark is going on safari with Harry Selby. Selby has broken his 470 on the previous hunt. A 416 Rigby is the only DG rifle available so Selby buys it. Ruark writes about what a fantastic rifle the 416 Rigby is and every American has to have one.

Yep, the .416 Rigby largely missed the glory days due to being a proprietary cartridge. It’s not even in the running as a result.

 

[freefall]

I was going to bet on the .303, but I bet the .762x51 is right up there.
In the classic DG configuration, the FN FAL.

 

[Wheels]

This was at a time when (barring the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum), no other dangerous game calibers were having commercially loaded ammunition available for them. So they did use it out of compulsion.

+1

I do remember when the only British ammo available in Tanzania was 375HH in Kynoch 5 packs. The 458wm gained popularity due to the fact there was plentiful ammo, not a superior cartridge.

An acquaintance bought a Holland and Holland .577 double for $100 from the gun store in Arusha. He didn't buy it for the rifle but for the 40 rounds of ammunition that came with it. When he left Tanzania, I think he gave the rifle away as it was worthless without ammo. How times have changed.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Yep, the .416 Rigby largely missed the glory days due to being a proprietary cartridge. It’s not even in the running as a result.

Yeah I'm willing to bet the 416 Rem Mag has outsold the Rigby, despite it being released close to a century later.

 

[baxterb]

A number of years ago I had the opportunity to look through the firearms registration ledgers from Colonial Kenya. Everyone who had a firearm(s) theoretically was registered. My preconceived notion was that it would be full of .375, 425, 404, 9.3, .470. I was way wrong. If a page contained 15 lines, probably 13-14 lines were the good old .303. There was an occasional shotgun, .22 or maybe a .375. In talking with some old time Tanzanians, they figured the ratio was probably accurate throughout East Africa. The professional hunters would have used mid/large bore but it seems the settlers used the .303 for all animals including lion, leopard, buffalo, rhino and elephant. There were a lot more settlers than professional hunters.

It would be interesting to know if those numbers could be extrapolated throughout all of British Colonial Africa.

I would guess that the .303 has taken more DG than even the .375. At least in British Africa.

You are quite correct on the 303. If you look at the old Firearms licenses in the old KEnya Gazette the 303 is everywhere.

A guy I met once was up on Bunny Allen's old farm in the Burgeret River - he happened to look down and see a cartridge case in the middle of nowhere...it was a .303...

 

[revturbo9967]

I’d say the 404 Jeff. The Jeff did all the heavy lifting before rigby showed up

 

[Wheels]

I was going to bet on the .303, but I bet the .762x51 is right up there.
In the classic DG configuration, the FN FAL.

Post WWII it has definitely killed a lot of animals in Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Angola, Congo, Sudan, etc.

 

[baxterb]

I belive that's an HK G3, no? That's what our game scout carried in Kenya

 

[Hunter-Habib]

+1

I do remember when the only British ammo available in Tanzania was 375HH in Kynoch 5 packs. The 458wm gained popularity due to the fact there was plentiful ammo, not a superior cartridge.

An acquaintance bought a Holland and Holland .577 double for $100 from the gun store in Arusha. He didn't buy it for the rifle but for the 40 rounds of ammunition that came with it. When he left Tanzania, I think he gave the rifle away as it was worthless without ammo. How times have changed.

I’ll tell you all a very funny story.

When I hunted in Kenya in 1974, I had the good fortune to visit the fabled Shaw & Hunter gun store in Nairobi. You gents will not believe me. The ENTIRE “Used” rack in that gun shop was FILLED with the finest English double rifles. Highlights included:
A James Purdey & Sons sidelock ejector in .470 Nitro Express
A pair of Holland & Holland Royale sidelock ejectors in .500/465 Nitro Express
Five John Rigby & Co. sidelock ejectors in .470 Nitro Express
Two John Rigby & Co. boxlock ejectors in .470 Nitro Express
A Holland & Holland Royale sidelock ejector in .500 Nitro Express 3”
Two Westley Richards droplock ejectors in .577 Nitro Express
A Holland & Holland Royale sidelock ejector in .600 Nitro Express

The .600 Nitro Express was the most expensive of the lot, but you could have purchased it (complete with original rosewood gun case) for less than what a standard Winchester Model 70 Safari Express in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum will cost you today. The reason that the double rifles were selling for such cheap prices, was because Kynoch had completely closed down in 1970… Thus killing off any source of commercially loaded ammunition for the British double rifle calibers. The only people who wanted anything to do with them, were either gun collectors or those who were ardent hand loaders (which was illegal in Kenya at that time). As a matter of fact, it’s rather hilarious when I think about it. All of these regal double rifles could be found in the “Used” rack of that gun store so cheaply. But all the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum BRNO ZKK602 rifles had completely sold out !

Looking back to that day in 1974… I suppose that the joke was on me for not buying that beautiful Holland & Holland Royale sidelock ejector in .600 Nitro Express at that time. Back in those days, the concept of hand loading was very alien to me and (for me, anyway) a double rifle for which no commercially manufactured ammunition was available… basically had the value of a very heavy ornate stick in my eyes. Oh, how I regret it now ! You boys would have completely gone crazy if you had set foot inside “Shaw & Hunter” and seen their “Used” rack.

What year did you go to Tanzania when you saw the Kynoch .375 Holland & Holland Magnum ammunition in the gun stores, Wheels ?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

A number of years ago I had the opportunity to look through the firearms registration ledgers from Colonial Kenya. Everyone who had a firearm(s) theoretically was registered. My preconceived notion was that it would be full of .375, 425, 404, 9.3, .470. I was way wrong. If a page contained 15 lines, probably 13-14 lines were the good old .303. There was an occasional shotgun, .22 or maybe a .375. In talking with some old time Tanzanians, they figured the ratio was probably accurate throughout East Africa. The professional hunters would have used mid/large bore but it seems the settlers used the .303 for all animals including lion, leopard, buffalo, rhino and elephant. There were a lot more settlers than professional hunters.

It would be interesting to know if those numbers could be extrapolated throughout all of British Colonial Africa.

I would guess that the .303 has taken more DG than even the .375. At least in British Africa.

Yours truly with a service .303 British Lee Enfield during the Indo-Pak war in 1971. It was regularly seeing use for shooting Axis deer, Sambar deer & Muntjac deer for supplementing camp rations. Always with the 174Gr FMJ military ball.

Eventually, our Commanding Officer taught me that you can file the tips off the cartridge heads in order to convert them into makeshift soft points.

 

[steve white]

pretty soon it will be the AK47

 

[wesheltonj]

pretty soon it will be the AK47

I suspect it already is.

 

[Wheels]

I’ll tell you all a very funny story.

When I hunted in Kenya in 1974, I had the good fortune to visit the fabled Shaw & Hunter gun store in Nairobi. You gents will not believe me. The ENTIRE “Used” rack in that gun shop was FILLED with the finest English double rifles. Highlights included:
A James Purdey & Sons sidelock ejector in .470 Nitro Express
A pair of Holland & Holland Royale sidelock ejectors in .500/465 Nitro Express
Five John Rigby & Co. sidelock ejectors in .470 Nitro Express
Two John Rigby & Co. boxlock ejectors in .470 Nitro Express
A Holland & Holland Royale sidelock ejector in .500 Nitro Express 3”
Two Westley Richards droplock ejectors in .577 Nitro Express
A Holland & Holland Royale sidelock ejector in .600 Nitro Express

The .600 Nitro Express was the most expensive of the lot, but you could have purchased it (complete with original rosewood gun case) for less than what a standard Winchester Model 70 Safari Express in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum will cost you today. The reason that the double rifles were selling for such cheap prices, was because Kynoch had completely closed down in 1970… Thus killing off any source of commercially loaded ammunition for the British double rifle calibers. The only people who wanted anything to do with them, were either gun collectors or those who were ardent hand loaders (which was illegal in Kenya at that time). As a matter of fact, it’s rather hilarious when I think about it. All of these regal double rifles could be found in the “Used” rack of that gun store so cheaply. But all the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum BRNO ZKK602 rifles had completely sold out !

Looking back to that day in 1974… I suppose that the joke was on me for not buying that beautiful Holland & Holland Royale sidelock ejector in .600 Nitro Express at that time. Back in those days, the concept of hand loading was very alien to me and (for me, anyway) a double rifle for which no commercially manufactured ammunition was available… basically had the value of a very heavy ornate stick in my eyes. Oh, how I regret it now ! You boys would have completely gone crazy if you had set foot inside “Shaw & Hunter” and seen their “Used” rack.

What year did you go to Tanzania when you saw the Kynoch .375 Holland & Holland Magnum ammunition in the gun stores, Wheels ?

Very interesting story. Thanks for posting.

We left Tanzania in 1970 and for a few years previous, the only British ammo we could get in Mbeya was .375 and shotgun shells.

I believe it was 1978 when Kenya stopped hunting and made everyone turn in their firearms. Around 2000, a friend was taken into the warehouse with all the firearms in Nairobi. There were 10's of thousands. Many were rusting away, but there were still new ones in boxes that hadn't been opened and some that had been greased down well before taken to the government. He told me there were so many that it would kill the collectors market if they ever came on line. I have a feeling most have become worthless from rust, termites and decay. Wonder if any of those you handled at Shaw & Hunter are wasting away in a government warehouse in Nairobi.

I have told this story on AH before, but my father was offered British double rifles for filling up a petrol tank on a Land Rover or Bedford. This happened more than once. The Kenyans were fleeing a newly independent majority ruled country for the safety of Rhodesia and South Africa and needed money to get there. The rifles meant nothing to us without being able to acquire ammo. Plus we had no discretionary funds anyway.