Aside from the 375H&H, which dangerous game cartridge has taken the most game?

[Doubleplay]

A number of years ago I had the opportunity to look through the firearms registration ledgers from Colonial Kenya. Everyone who had a firearm(s) theoretically was registered. My preconceived notion was that it would be full of .375, 425, 404, 9.3, .470. I was way wrong. If a page contained 15 lines, probably 13-14 lines were the good old .303. There was an occasional shotgun, .22 or maybe a .375. In talking with some old time Tanzanians, they figured the ratio was probably accurate throughout East Africa. The professional hunters would have used mid/large bore but it seems the settlers used the .303 for all animals including lion, leopard, buffalo, rhino and elephant. There were a lot more settlers than professional hunters.

It would be interesting to know if those numbers could be extrapolated throughout all of British Colonial Africa.

I would guess that the .303 has taken more DG than even the .375. At least in British Africa.

I agree with this. 303 Enfield is probably the one.

 

[Wheels]

I belive that's an HK G3, no? That's what our game scout carried in Kenya

You could be right. I don't know military weapons.

I didn't check and don't know, but he told it was an FN 308. Then in talking with an individual involved in the Southwest Africa/Angolan war, he asked if it was green or black. I said green and he said it would be an FN. The black ones were the South African reverse engineered 308's.

 

[baxterb]

You could be right. I don't know military weapons.

I didn't check and don't know, but he told it was an FN 308. Then in talking with an individual involved in the Southwest Africa/Angolan war, he asked if it was green or black. I said green and he said it would be an FN. The black ones were the South African reverse engineered 308's.

Copy. I also know little about military weapons - but looks just like the one our scout carried - see here:

Saidi holding down our 6 in some proper bush shoes.

He was a heck of a nice guy. On the way back one evening, just at dark he all the sudden tapped the roof and asked Martin to stop. He jumped out and ran in front of the LC and picked up his hat. It had blown off his head three hours earlier in the day and he said nothing - just remembered where it fell. He spent the whole time in the sun with no hat.

 

[baxterb]

Very interesting story. Thanks for posting.

We left Tanzania in 1970 and for a few years previous, the only British ammo we could get in Mbeya was .375 and shotgun shells.

I believe it was 1978 when Kenya stopped hunting and made everyone turn in their firearms. Around 2000, a friend was taken into the warehouse with all the firearms in Nairobi. There were 10's of thousands. Many were rusting away, but there were still new ones in boxes that hadn't been opened and some that had been greased down well before taken to the government. He told me there were so many that it would kill the collectors market if they ever came on line. I have a feeling most have become worthless from rust, termites and decay. Wonder if any of those you handled at Shaw & Hunter are wasting away in a government warehouse in Nairobi.

I have told this story on AH before, but my father was offered British double rifles for filling up a petrol tank on a Land Rover or Bedford. This happened more than once. The Kenyans were fleeing a newly independent majority ruled country for the safety of Rhodesia and South Africa and needed money to get there. The rifles meant nothing to us without being able to acquire ammo. Plus we had no discretionary funds anyway.

“The Warehouse” also came up in conversation when I was in Kenya. The general response was one of nausea, frustration, and a lot of head shaking. At the time the government was even reconsidering the “honorary game warden” concept and there were even rumbles of taking some of the few guns that were left yet. I was told this alongside a story of a guy being killed by a Buffalo after some incompetence by a few game department fellows, the situation then later sorted out by a former PH and honorary game warden who cleaned up with his Rigby.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

9,3 x 62Mauser and 404Jeffery

 

[mark-hunter]

Basically what's second runner to the 375H&H in terms of popularity and African game taken?

416 Rem Mag?

458 Win Mag?

470 Nitro Express?

my bet is 458 win mag.
I posted somewhere on the forum, a researched article by Gun Digest annual edition, two years ago.
They made a research of which caliber / rifle was used by most famous white hunters in last century.
and it was 458 win mag.

 

[WAB]

my bet is 458 win mag.
I posted somewhere on the forum, a researched article by Gun Digest annual edition, two years ago.
They made a research of which caliber / rifle was used by most famous white hunters in last century.
and it was 458 win mag.

It had to be a caliber used by settlers. They cut a huge swath settling the land before the concept of a PH even came into being.

 

[mark-hunter]

It had to be a caliber used by settlers

Many of white hunters were settlers or from settlers family.
But white hunters had books written about them, they were high profile and famous.
So, for them we have records of what rifles they used. Of this group 458 win is most common.

For local farmers we have no idea. No records.
I am fairly certain, they did not massively use expensive double rifle.
Most probably they used military bolt action like 7x57, 303 british, and a bit wealthier came up to 9.3x62, 318 westley richards and similar. But real numbers we will hardly know.

There was a kind of professional hunters (not PH) who were paid for game control to clear the land from animals, for farms and domestic cattle and crops, provide food for workers in the mines, etc. Then Ivory hunters who hunted elephant, but had to provide meat for their bearers and camp staff, etc
But of all those who were not famous, we have no records of what they used.

At one point at the end of colonial era, all production of tropical ammunition stopped, and they had to restore back to old military rifles, or settle with 458 win mag or 375 h&h

 

[WAB]

Many of white hunters were settlers or from settlers family.
But white hunters had books written about them, they were high profile and famous.
So, for them we have records of what rifles they used. Of this group 458 win is most common.

For local farmers we have no idea. No records.
I am fairly certain, they did not massively use expensive double rifle.
Most probably they used military bolt action like 7x57, 303 british, and a bit wealthier came up to 9.3x62, 318 westley richards and similar. But real numbers we will hardly know.

There was a kind of professional hunters (not PH) who were paid for game control to clear the land from animals, for farms and domestic cattle and crops, provide food for workers in the mines, etc. Then Ivory hunters who hunted elephant, but had to provide meat for their bearers and camp staff, etc
But of all those who were not famous, we have no records of what they used.

At one point at the end of colonial era, all production of tropical ammunition stopped, and they had to restore back to old military rifles, or settle with 458 win mag or 375 h&h

History does not agree with your point on the .458 WM. Otto Bock introduced the 9.3x62 in 1905 for use in standard length Mauser. This created an inexpensive weapon for the German colonists that was adequate for any African game. This was followed in 1912 by the .375 H&H, creating a similar class weapon quickly adopted by English colonists. WWII swung the balance to the .375.

The .458 was not introduced until 1956, after all the heavy lifting had been done by the settlers. Was it used? Of course. But it missed the days when whole swaths of Africa were being explored and settled.

 

[mark-hunter]

you are partially correct, I had the same thought. But lets try to estimate, how was distribution of new cheap rifles in 9.3 organised in Africa in 1905 and later? Guns shops at every village? What about amuunition?
Then WW1 followed, and german colonial forces even had zero re-supply of ammunition. By 1918 war finished, and Germans lost colonies, and lost gun production for following years. So I dont think thare was abundance of 9.3 rifles on the local market.

I was reading somewhere, even 375 HH is doubtful as at the start (post1912) it was not legal caliber for Danegrous game - at least not for sport hunters in east Africa.

In below research there is chronological difference, as 458 win mag came only in second half od 20. century, and research in the same time covered entire century.

But then, there was probably more white hunters then it was in the days between the wars.

As the english were reducing their hunting in Africa, the American clients under influence of Robert Ruark came in numbers and made new revival of African safari where 458 played the role. Not to mention being used by govt game rangers, as most available caliber by that time.

But what the settlers and farmers really used is hard to estimate. No records, educated guessing at the best. Rural Africa and commerical rich gun market? hard to believe.

here in post no39, i wasnt counting exactly, but it looks that 458 is most used.

What gun do Professional Hunters like to use?

So a safari Kill Bill?When you say it like that... Also bax, thanks for that name drop.

www.africahunting.com

 

[John Wasmuth]

Don’t over look the 8x57 Mauser in the German settled areas before the 9,3x62 came about.

 

[grand veneur]

The question, that is how I understood it, is about which dangerous game cartridge has taken the most game.

The various military calibers of the various colonial forces were most certainly used, meant for sure under other the 8mm Lebel, the 8x57 and the 303 Britisch, but not or hardly for hunting big and dangerous game. There was certainly a lot of hunting but not big game hunting. Farmers and other hunters will have used cartridges like the 9,3x62 or 10,75x68, but primarily as meat getters and not for big game hunting. The licenses for these game species were already expensive back then.

The question is difficult to answer because, as far as I know, there are no statistics.

I would spontaneously tend to agree with @Hunter-Habib, because as he writes, there was hardly anything other than the cartridges 458 Win Mag or 375 H&H Magnum over a longer period of time for hunting big game. The latter was also used very often, and there is hardly a PH that has not even used both.

On the other hand, whole Game Departments were equipped with cartridges like the 404 Jeffery or the 425 Westley Richards and thus also took part in culling.

I don't believe a cartridge like the 416 Rigby because the rifles for it were more expensive and were only reserved for a few hunters.

As written, very difficult to answer and the truth might perhaps surprise us all.

 

[Inline6]

One thing I know for sure, not many cared about what was min legal or not. They used what they had, that is pretty much the bottom line. We can speculate all we want, people used what that had. They were not afforded the luxuries we have today.

 

[grand veneur]

Despite everything, order prevailed. The various colonial administration took care of that.

Sure, there were areas that were not under control, but otherwise not everyone could hunt as they wanted. I still had the opportunity to talk to french colonial administrators about it. In the English part it was certainly comparable.

 

[mark-hunter]

Sure, there were areas that were not under control, but otherwise not everyone could hunt as they wanted.

They tried to put control, first hunting regulations came from East African Professional Hunter's Association (EAPHA), etsablished in 1934.
But how do you administer and issue licenses to local tribes, for their ancestral native land and hunting grounds where they hunted from beginning of time (and are mostly illiterate, at least then)?

This social conflict later made the term white hunters and black poachers. And most probably this sticks to the day.
Speaking for Kenya, EAPHA was terminated in 1977 with hunting ban in Kenya.
To this day, Kenyan wild life is decimated. I wonder who did the poaching?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I contacted one of my former white hunters just now and asked him this question. He tells me that in Mozambique, the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum and the 9.3x62mm Mauser have (without a doubt) accounted for the most head of dangerous game post World War II.

Now that I think about it, he might be right.

In an issue of “Hatari Times”, Harald Wolf writes that the 10.75x68mm Mauser used to be the universally accepted hunting caliber of choice in the Belgian Congo

So now, we at least know about 2 regions for sure.

Let’s immediately rule out calibers which COULDN’T POSSIBLY be candidates for @Northern Shooter ’s question: .700 Nitro Express, .600 Nitro Express, .505 Gibbs, .500 Jeffery, .460 Weatherby Magnum, .450 Rigby Rimless, .416 Remington Magnum, .400 Holland & Holland Magnum, .378 Weatherby Magnum.

Rifles in these calibers were either:
1) Made in far too few numbers during the era of unrestricted hunting.
Or
2) Not introduced until long after restrictions were set in place.

 

[WAB]

I contacted one of my former white hunters just now and asked him this question. He tells me that in Mozambique, the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum and the 9.3x62mm Mauser have (without a doubt) accounted for the most head of dangerous game post World War II.

Now that I think about it, he might be right.

In an issue of “Hatari Times”, Harald Wolf writes that the 10.75x68mm Mauser used to be the universally accepted hunting caliber of choice in the Belgian Congo

So now, we at least know about 2 regions for sure.

Let’s immediately rule out calibers which COULDN’T POSSIBLY be candidates for @Northern Shooter ’s question: .700 Nitro Express, .600 Nitro Express, .505 Gibbs, .500 Jeffery, .460 Weatherby Magnum, .450 Rigby Rimless, .416 Remington Magnum, .400 Holland & Holland Magnum, .378 Weatherby Magnum.

Rifles in these calibers were either:
1) Made in far too few numbers during the era of unrestricted hunting.
Or
2) Not introduced until long after restrictions were set in place.

Agreed, and based on your criteria, you would have to add the .458 WM to that list. It simply came out too late to be a viable contender.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Agreed, and based on your criteria, you would have to add the .458 WM to that list. It simply came out too late to be a viable contender.

Ah, I would, @WAB . But I cannot, only for the following reason:
Literally (and without exception) EVERY African game department was using this caliber for their elephant, hippopotamus and Cape buffalo culling programs from 1969 to 1991 (and thus accounted for elephant, hippopotamus & Cape buffalo in the thousands). In addition to the average visiting hunter & white hunter. When I was going on my African Safaris between 1974 & 1984… I have never seen a single white hunter who was armed with anything OTHER THAN A .458 Winchester Magnum as their dangerous game backup rifle of choice.

This page from Mike LaGrange’s book “Ballistics In Perspective“ sheds some crucial light on the matter. The sample illustrates how much the .458 Winchester Magnum was used during just 2 years of this time frame.

 

[grand veneur]

I contacted one of my former white hunters just now and asked him this question. He tells me that in Mozambique, the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum and the 9.3x62mm Mauser have (without a doubt) accounted for the most head of dangerous game post World War II.

Now that I think about it, he might be right.

It may well be that such cartridges were used, but one should then neither forget the cartridge 10,75x68 in some countries. According to the opinion Taylor's, it were used very often.

I believe that in the British colonies the legal caliber minimum for hunting big game was .400/10mm. Only when big game hunting became popular, the legal minimum was reduced to the cartridge 375 H&H Magnum to allow more clients to book this hunts. The French were less rigorous when it came to calibers, but big bore DR were often in use, among other things and especially the various caliber 475 Nitro Express.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

It may well be that such cartridges were used, but one should then neither forget the cartridge 10,75x68 in some countries. According to the opinion Taylor's, it were used very often.

I believe that in the British colonies the legal caliber minimum for hunting big game was .400/10mm. Only when big game hunting became popular, the legal minimum was reduced to the cartridge 375 H&H Magnum to allow more clients to book this hunts. The French were less rigorous when it came to calibers, but big bore DR were often in use, among other things and especially the various caliber 475 Nitro Express.

But @grand veneur , I did mention the 10.75x68mm Mauser.

I said:
In an issue of “Hatari Times”, Harald Wolf writes that the 10.75x68mm Mauser used to be the universally accepted hunting caliber of choice in the Belgian Congo.

Kenya made the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum the legal minimum for eland and most dangerous game in 1956, according to my White Hunter (Mr. Cheffings). I think that .400 bore was the minimum legally accepted caliber for rhinoceros & elephant.