Best rifle for 458 WM?

[Cheesehead]

My personal record speed-shooter weighs 9.0 lbs bare, empty, unloaded.
9 lbs 4oz with scope bases and Burris FF3 red dot added.
It is very comfortable to shoot with the Hornady 500-gr DGX&DGS factory loads delivering an honest 2140 fps MV:View attachment 643906

Hey, I've got one of those too! That rear sight is a little weird but the gun makes me happy.

Memo to self: I need to take better pics of my rifles

 

[RLL]

One more M70 Winchester Classic featuring a JES re-bore of a .375 H&H stainless barrel swapped onto another M70 Classic action and some fantastic wood,
A friend with more refined taste than I built this and I unburdened him of it after he took it to Africa and slew buffalo at 30 yards and plains game at close to 200 yards,
using the 404-gr Hammer at +2500 fps, all one shot kills:

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Question for you, Have you tested any other powders beyond AA2230? X-term, TAC, benchmark, W748?

 

[Riflecrank]

RLL,
Yes, many.
Any powder good in the .223/5.56 NATO is excellent in the .458 WinMag.

AA-2230 is always a good choice.
AA-2460s: I SWAG it is same as AA-2230 but with all balls left spherical instead of about half of them squashed flat.
TAC is pretty close to same as AA-2230.
Ditto H335.
Ditto Ramshot X-Terminator.

AA-5744 with 250-grainers at 2700 fps is excellent for a light recoil gamegetter. You can go up to 3000 fps with it too.

H4198 with 250-grainer is excellent if you want +3000 fps with lower pressure than you can do with faster powders. Also +2800 fps with 300-gr (TSX) and +2700 fps with 350-gr (TSX)
300-gr Sierra Hollow Points vaporize at about 2800 fps, don't do that.

Hodgdon BENCHMARK is probably the most temperature stable of all and gets top velocities with the 404-grain Hammer.
It has replaced the old IMR-3031 and IMR-4198 I used in the late 1980s, for 500-grainers and 400-grainers respectively.

H4895 is most flexible, for reduced loads from 60% LR with no filler to 110% LR compressed maximum loads.

CFE 223 is excellent with 500-grain bullets near 2200 fps and that is about as slow a powder burn rate as you need to look to.

I never used Winchester 748 except in the 30-30 when I was a kid, but I have some of the new and improved version called
Winchester StaBALL Match: Temp stable and copper fouling reducing, cleaner burning than 748.

VARGET is a good alternative to Winchester 748 also.

Alliant Power Pro line of powders ...
Etc., etc., too many powder and bullet combos to shake a stick out.

With any powder from Accurate 5744 to CFE 223 on the burn rate table (#71 to #118 out of the total of 176 powders listed in the table I am looking at)
and any bullet weight and bullet type from 250 grains to 600 grains
you can find an excellent choice
in the most excellent cartridge of all, the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Use what you have, you will succeed.

 

[CZDiesel]

This is my 2002 Winchester Custom Shop 458WinMag with a 22” bbl that shoots Hornady DGS to an honest 2170ftps and DGX to 2150ftps! This was verified through both LabRadar and Garmin Doppler double verified! My best friend and @CoElkHunter witnessed…
That easily matches the 450NE or 470NE so what more do you want?!?!
Seriously! All the 458WinMag sceptics WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT!!!
Now I have no hate for the 458 Lott, but as a client I don’t see any imaginable reason for it? None!
The Lott these days is a specialized cartridge, like the Cap and the 500’s, for DG PH’s! And even then as the boys at Dalton and York who hunt a ton of DG will tell you the 458WinMag is plenty as that is what they use…
I have an upcoming DG for both Ele and Buff on the Save. My PH asked me what I’d be bringing and I told him that I have a 375 H&H, a 416 Rem, and a 458WinMg and he said without hesitation “Bring the 458!”. That’s all I need to know on the subject as he does this for a living!

That is the Custom Shop 458 on the bottom that I gave to my nephew and that is a 50 yard three shot group open sight out my 458 with DGS! Again what more do you want?

 

[Riflecrank]

Got it on the other thread, thanks, will go there.

 

[CZDiesel]

Hey, I've got one of those too! That rear sight is a little weird but the gun makes me happy.
View attachment 644067
View attachment 644068
Memo to self: I need to take better pics of my rifles

That is Winchester’s original “Roll” type express sight that they have used for over 75 years. My custom 1950 375 H&H still wears its original one and I really like it!!!
I can only imagine how much game that sight has taken seeing as how poor rifle scopes were back in the 40’s through 60’s…

 

[coreydb]

Currently CZ makes the CZ 550 in the 458, as well as the Heym Express ($$$$$) and the Kimber Caprivi; ($$$). If you don't want to spend a lot of money, go with the CZ, or troll Guns America, Guns International, or Gunbroker.com for used rifles

 

[Manwe]

If you know your rifle and load it should work very well for long range. Heck the .45-70 is still used as a long range rifle in BP matches and it doesn't push bullets as fast as a .458 Win Mag. If you purpose build your rifle with the right componets there is no reason you shouldn't be able to use it as a long range rifle.

 

[Cheesehead]

That is Winchester’s original “Roll” type express sight that they have used for over 75 years. My custom 1950 375 H&H still wears its original one and I really like it!!!
I can only imagine how much game that sight has taken seeing as how poor rifle scopes were back in the 40’s through 60’s…

I had no idea that was a classic winchester sight. That's cool to know. I don't have any issue shooting with the iron sights. They're probably as accurate as any typical express sight, at least for me.

 

[cajunchefray]

Hey, I've got one of those too! That rear sight is a little weird but the gun makes me happy.
View attachment 644067
View attachment 644068
Memo to self: I need to take better pics of my rifles

The Cabela's version of the Model 70, .458 Winchester from their 2011 anniversary(?) handle very nicely,
I think these were more to the spec of the 1956 Winchester M70, 458 African.

The only question is: " Why in the hell did I walk away from that M70 .458 in the Cabela's, Gonzales Gun Library?

Winchester should make another run of these early .458 WM.

 

[Cheesehead]

The Cabela's version of the Model 70, .458 Winchester from their 2011 anniversary(?) handle very nicely,
I think these were more to the spec of the 1956 Winchester M70, 458 African.

I agree. I bought mine on a whim. Once I picked it up, I had to have it. I read the same thing about them being made close to the specs of the earliest 458 M70s. That fits with what CZDiesel said about the sights.

 

[BeeMaa]

Currently CZ makes the CZ 550 in the 458, as well as the Heym Express ($$$$$) and the Kimber Caprivi; ($$$). If you don't want to spend a lot of money, go with the CZ, or troll Guns America, Guns International, or Gunbroker.com for used rifles

The CZ550 is out of production and has been for a number of years now. There is some new old stock for sale, but I can almost guarantee that it will need work to make it DG ready. They are notorious for their trash trigger, gritty action and feeding problems. This was the entire basis of AHR and Wayne’s excellent craftsmanship makes those rifles so desirable.

I had a CZ550 375H&H and experienced all of the above before sending it to Wayne for a #2 upgrade. I sold it a few years later in favor of the Blaser R8 and have no regrets.

The Win M70 is a great rifle, but it’s not a Heym Martini Express or even a Dakota 76 or Kimber Caprivi. As long as you look down at your rifle and it makes you happy…that’s all you need. Just make sure it’s reliable as well.

 

[CZDiesel]

The CZ550 is out of production and has been for a number of years now. There is some new old stock for sale, but I can almost guarantee that it will need work to make it DG ready. They are notorious for their trash trigger, gritty action and feeding problems. This was the entire basis of AHR and Wayne’s excellent craftsmanship makes those rifles so desirable.

I had a CZ550 375H&H and experienced all of the above before sending it to Wayne for a #2 upgrade. I sold it a few years later in favor of the Blaser R8 and have no regrets.

The Win M70 is a great rifle, but it’s not a Heym Martini Express or even a Dakota 76 or Kimber Caprivi. As long as you look down at your rifle and it makes you happy…that’s all you need. Just make sure it’s reliable as well.

You are correct sir! The Winchester M-70 is not a Heym or a Dakota or a Kimber! The New Haven Winchesters are better! As in so much better that none of those brands have the legacy that Winchester has cemented in Africa since the 1940’s…

 

[BeeMaa]

You are correct sir! The Winchester M-70 is not a Heym or a Dakota or a Kimber! The New Haven Winchesters are better! As in so much better that none of those brands have the legacy that Winchester has cemented in Africa since the 1940’s…

We are all welcome to our own opinions, and yours clearly is in favor of the M70. But to say that companies like Heym don’t have history in Africa is more than a bit narrow minded. Although not popular with Americans for this long, they have been making rifles for 150 years with a rich African heritage.

Not saying the Heym is a better rifle than the M70…but it is. In absolutely every single way.

 

[Cheesehead]

Not saying the Heym is a better rifle than the M70…but it is. In absolutely every single way.

This is kinda like saying a G-wagon is a better suv that a Ford Explorer... for how much more it costs, it better be.

 

[CZDiesel]

We are all welcome to our own opinions, and yours clearly is in favor of the M70. But to say that companies like Heym don’t have history in Africa is more than a bit narrow minded. Although not popular with Americans for this long, they have been making rifles for 150 years with a rich African heritage.

Not saying the Heym is a better rifle than the M70…but it is. In absolutely every single way.

I never said they didn’t have a history in Africa, I’m quite sure they do! But to say that they have a greater history in Africa than Winchester would not be the truth. I’d guess since the 1940s Winchester traveling to Africa have out paced Heym 100 to 1!
And I’d bet it’s close to the same in numbers of PH’s and game rangers that use Winchesters over Heym too! Winchesters has planted itself a long and very successful legacy in Africa that is unrivaled in use…

This is kinda like saying a G-wagon is a better suv that a Ford Explorer... for how much more it costs, it better be.

Winchester Model 70’s have gone at auction for a quarter of a million dollars, they are no Ford Explorer!
Heym’s are great! I’d take a custom Pre-64 over one all day long

 

[BeeMaa]

I never said they didn’t have a history in Africa, I’m quite sure they do! But to say that they have a greater history in Africa than Winchester would not be the truth. I’d guess since the 1940s Winchester traveling to Africa have out paced Heym 100 to 1!
And I’d bet it’s close to the same in numbers of PH’s and game rangers that use Winchesters over Heym too! Winchesters has planted itself a long and very successful legacy in Africa that is unrivaled in use…

I'd be interested in knowing how many PH's would give up their M70 if they could own a Heym Safari Express. How do you think that would end?

As for M70's going for $250K, they are most likely representing a time in history. Meaning it was owned by someone like Hemingway (with proof of provenance) or marked a milestone, like the first of a series or special edition.

If you were to try and sell a brand new M70 that you had bought and not used, shot, dinged or dented...you would most likely not make money on the transaction. Conversely, I know a member here who bought a Heym Martini Express, shot it about 20 times and sold it for a significant profit. The Heym is in higher demand than the current supply vs the M70.

The debate will rage on what is better or better value. But at the end of the day, the Heym has a higher level of fit, finish and function in every single aspect over the M70 and carries a price to reflect it. Those that are fortunate enough to own them know it.

I'm not arguing that the M70 isn't a great platform, it is. But comparing it to a Heym that carries a price of nearly 8x more than that of the Winchester isn't fair.

 

[CZDiesel]

I'd be interested in knowing how many PH's would give up their M70 if they could own a Heym Safari Express. How do you think that would end?

As for M70's going for $250K, they are most likely representing a time in history. Meaning it was owned by someone like Hemingway (with proof of provenance) or marked a milestone, like the first of a series or special edition.

If you were to try and sell a brand new M70 that you had bought and not used, shot, dinged or dented...you would most likely not make money on the transaction. Conversely, I know a member here who bought a Heym Martini Express, shot it about 20 times and sold it for a significant profit. The Heym is in higher demand than the current supply vs the M70.

The debate will rage on what is better or better value. But at the end of the day, the Heym has a higher level of fit, finish and function in every single aspect over the M70 and carries a price to reflect it. Those that are fortunate enough to own them know it.

I'm not arguing that the M70 isn't a great platform, it is. But comparing it to a Heym that carries a price of nearly 8x more than that of the Winchester isn't fair.

Again respectfully I’m not sure that you understand what New Haven Winchester Custom Shop rifles are or how Pre-64 Winchesters were made?
They both are completely hand made and fitted and the Pre-64s are hand machined! My 2002 Custom Shop 458WinMag was hand built, hand fitted, custom wood stock, hand checkered, inletted rear swivel base, Pachymer decelerator pad, barrel band, custom bluing finished, controlled action feed, hand honed action, hand squared lugs on the bolt body, hand polished bolt face, hand engine turned bolt, Wolf firing pin and spring, hand lapped and hand crowned match grade barrel, one piece steel pinned trigger guard, three leaf express rear sight, and an adjustable hooded front sight!
Please tell me how the Heym is better fit, finish, or function?
My 1950 “Transition” Pre-64 375 H&H has all the same done but wears an exhibition grade Turkish walnut stock. Both with shoot touching three leaf clovers at 50 yards with open sight while standing shots are taken!
The Pre-64 375 is valued at $16,000
Again how is a Heym a better more desirable rifle?
Leroy Berry, one of the best custom rifle/custom stock makers on the planet just sold a less desirable Pre-64 with a stock not at the same level as mine for $15,000 on his web site!
Again how is a Heym better more desirable rifle?
Not trying to pick a fight, if you are a Heym fan cool! I like them too! But to say they are somehow a greater rifle than a New Haven Custom Shop rifle or a custom Pre-64 that’s just not the truth!
And we could guess about what the PH’s and game rangers would carry but we do know what they do carry! And that’s Winchester! Also my PH’s brother works as gun smith building custom rifles for Griffey and Howe is building a 375 H&H for their father who is a Zimbabwean living in Harare. The action? Pre-64 Winchester not Mauser…
Hope all is well! Merry Christmas!