Blaser R8 - Why do African PH’s and Alaskan Bear Guides Choose Not To Use Blaser R8’s?

[mark-hunter]

@WAB
@Skinnersblade
Ha... the blast from the past.
As per Terry Wieland, Ross rifle was excellent rifle for the purpose inttended.
It was inttended, in the begging as a rifle to hunt scotish red stag, plus sporting rifle to win long range matches.
If performed wonderfully, in those two roles.

However, the destiny intervined:
For hunting it was condemed by unfortunate incident when mr George Grey (brother of then famous London politician), was mauled bi lion in East Africa, and he was using Ross rifle in 280 Ross (first true magnum caliber, 3000 fps, cca, with soft point bullets). This undermined reputation of hunting rifle in high society, disregarding the fact, that wrong cartridge / caliber was inaproprately used for hunting DG (lion)

This killed repution of Ross rifle as hunting rifle in high society, in victorian era.
.
Then, Ross rifle, redesigned for 303 caliber was used in WW1, in trenches by canadian troops.
Now, there is a story that if bolt of Ross rifle was assemebled in wrong way, the bolt would not lock, but cartrgidge could be fired, causing severe injuries to user. (see next comment on blaser r93)
However, in no official report, there is no evidence that anybody was actually injured, by documented name of injured person, place of event and other details (As per Terry Wieland who did research), but the story got attention in military circles..
But rifle, indeed was jamming in mud and trenches, unliked and unthrusted by soldiers, and was soon replaced (by SMLE 303), and finally phased out.
So, as a military rifle it was not. As a safari rifle it was not. So, finally it was phased out, remained in history.

Fast Forward to "Blaser" times:
There was earlier model of blaser r93.
With alledged reports of problems with locking, and bolts blasting to users head, causing rare, but serious injuries whent this happened. (google search can give some idea). The failure was recognised, but in offical public domain it was attributed to hand made, reloaded ammunition. Not to rifle itself
One German hunting magazine had more detailed article about this. (When I posted the link on the forum it was removed, so in case interested, I can provide link on pm)
Finally, r93 phased out (?!), and r8 came along.
Supoosedly with better designed and improved locking system.
So, now r8 is here. For r8, I have never heard of incident with bolt exploding, or problems with locking.
So far so good. The time will give final judgement on that rifle, like it did for example for mauser m98, still popular after 100 years

Other rifles, of linear action (straight pull) in history, came, have been noticed, and then disappeared. never cought to remain, even in sporterised versions. For example, to name few:
Schmidt Rubin (Swiss), WW1, WW2 - designed cca 1889.
Swiss Manlicher m 1893
Manlicher m1895
And there was also american issued Navy rifle, M1895 Lee Navy.
There were few others of similar vintage, that came and went. Today almost forgotten.

Modern ones are:
Blaser r8, doing quite well actually
Merkel Helix
Browining Maral
Strasser RS 14
etc

Having said that, with a look in last 100 years of history, it looks like that straight pull rifles came and went, with their era, and then dissapeared, having something like bad luck trailing along,...

 

[Red Leg]

Now there’s a blast from the past!

I was trying to imagine a place, even in Canada, where it would be easier to find a Ross than a Blaser. I have never fired a Ross, only held one and worked the action. My assumption would be that the cycle would seem longer due to the placement of the magazine in relation to a conventIonal trigger. Obviously the design is quite different. The sporter I played with was a very elegant rifle. I was going to add that Terry Wieland has a laudatory chapter on the Ross in his new book but @mark-hunter beat me to it.

 

[cal]

I think the op has a fair question, not well put and argued though. I think it’s a fairly easy question to answer.
1. PH’s don’t need interchangeable barrels, a smaller PG and even DG caliber rifle for clients to rent yes but they’ll obviously never take the 458 Lott barrel off their R8 to give their client a 300wm to shoot a zebra.
2. Cost for many PH’s. I’ve never hunted with a ph who used a CZ, almost every single one has had a double, but for a PH starting out a R100,000 plus gun is a big expense.
3. Reliability? Compared to double and Mauser actions the R8 has been out for a relatively short time. Even with its excellent reputation it just hasn’t performed as long as the older actions have.
4. Timing. The ph’s I know bought their doubles more than 10 years ago. Before the R8 was released and certainly before it was proven. The only one of my PH mates who is replacing his rifle now is changing his merkel double for a Heym double.
5. I don’t think a double can be beaten for a PH rifle.

I think the R8 is an amazing gun for a client. I have a few non PH friends who love them. I personally prefer a more traditional bolt action. My DG and PG rifles fit nicely in a pelican case with wheels and I like having both immediately on the truck. Would hate to be hunting kudu with .300 wm barrel attached and see an old dagga boy run off into the sunset before having time to switch. But now I digress from original question. Not bashing it, just not for me right now, maybe one day I’ll convert! Who knows...

 

[machinistbutler]

My neighbour has a Ross restoration company. He builds the stocks, starting to make barrels. He also has most of the hardware reproduced for them. Very nice stuff.

I collected the Swiss straight pulls, K31 and the K11. Hunted with the K31 a bunch, never had a problem, and carried one at work for years, always functioned well.

Carried my CZ458 Lott all summer. It has become much smoother with the daily use.

I have never even seen a R8 . Would love to try one someday though. I have never found the straight pull rifles awkward at all.

 

[PARA45]

@NWT, if you would have come on here with actual experience of the R8 you've owned, your opinion maybe would have a bit of value. Calling individuals who you do not know "internet experts" is in my view being rude on your part. Also, questioning Red Leg, who you do NOT remotely know him, and calling him this:

"maybe you are the internet expert I am speaking of. Owning a bunch of guns that have no history and sound like they have never been used does not make one a expert. "

Lowered your credibility to zero. Red Leg gave you a very good and polite answer, but you had to call him names. You on the other hand are coming across as an internet expert, because you have no field experience with the R8, and you are basing your opinion on what certain PHs are saying, and your experience at the range. I think you need to work on your approach, specially someone new like you.

 

[Red Leg]

Argument or the truth .
The R8 action has design problems (the actions are machined to to close of tolerances) the actions are prone to jam up with sand . Not ideal for DG hunting.
I was pretty excited when the R8 was introduced a while back .I thought I wanted one. After all the safety issues with the Blaser R93 I remained a cautious bystander regarding the R8.

Kinda doubt a PH in one of the top DG concessions sits around fabricating stories about Blaser R8’s. The PH simply shared the story with me and he was obviously pretty shaken up because a client using a Blaser R8 jammed up because it had sand in it during a elephant hunt after shots had been fired by the hunter. The PH said it was not the first time he had a client with a R8 that would not feed due to sand in the action.

The topic was using the Blaser R8 on DG .
Its a totally different subject using the Blaser R8 on a Elk hunt where you bring a extra rifle barrel to shoot squirrels. The R8’s have a reputation for being accurate and unless you are in the high desert during a windstorm or your rifle accidentally gets sand in the action while you are crawling , or being exposed to the elements your rifle probably works great.

Only about 10 different people even responded to this, not a big story. I was told only a little over 100,000 Blaser R8’s have been sold. Was pretty sure some one would get themselves all worked up .This thread got started after I read enough the past 60 days from a self proclaimed internet expert. This self proclaimed expert is a expert on everything just ask him. He comments on almost every post.
Lots of good information is shared on this website at times, there are the self proclaimed experts that detract from it.
lf you think the Blaser R8 does not have a issue with the action jamming no problem it’s America and your life. If you are not already a Blaser R8 fanboy you may enjoy chatting with several DG PH’s. Most any rifle functions most of the time it’s the time the rifle doesn’t function as intended when the pucker factor goes up.
I really don’t care if you think the Blaser R8 in Dangerous Game Calibers is the best rifle made . I am never buying one so that leaves more for you. In the meantime I will use my CRF Mausers and Model 70’s made up by several of top rifle builders we have here in the USA.
Peace and Out
NWT

Sigh. That is fairly rich NWT. You have gone to Africa and you have spoken with a PH who apparently doesn't like the Blaser design. Fair enough. You conclude from that the the action jams and it is inappropriate for African use. You then offer that "expert" opinion on an "internet" forum where a lot of people have been to Africa (often multiple times), and many have first hand experience using the R8 for the very thing you have "self-proclaimed" it is unsuitable. One of our PH members who owns and uses a R8 also responded. Not unsurprisingly, I should think, those owners have taken exception to your assertions offering in rebuttal their own real world experiences. And that makes you angry and you call them "self-proclaimed experts." There is an old story about kettles and the color black.

I think @cal and @Zambezi have offered really clear observations with respect to the rifle's use by the PH community in Africa. A legitimate question. And of course Stuart Williams is a real life DG PH who has hunted with one for the better part of a decade. I don't know if those responses were what you wanted to hear either.

If you really want to be informed about the Blaser R8, I again would urge you to read @One Day... 's postings in this thread.

Transitioning To A Blaser R8 - A Two Months / 500 Rounds Review

Transitioning to a Blaser R8 - A two months / 500 rounds review series of articles So, the deed is done, I have purchased a Blaser R8 and 4 barrels. This came as a shock to some friends on AH.com who know me to be a fervent advocate of the CZ 550 as the best value in the affordable DG rifle...

www.africahunting.com

 

[bowjijohn]

I've never used my R8 in Africa

I have used mostly CZs and my own Mauser 98s

I do plan to 'upgrade' my R8 from 6.5 x 55 (a calibre I've found suitable for long range precision target and for deer here in the UK) to 458 Lott.

The Lott will be used purely as a stopper

I can't yet answer as to whether they are prone to hick-ups in fine dusty conditions and the endless abuse of daily work in the bush (certainly my Mauser 98s are not a problem).

I have however seen a variety of R8s and Merkels on our DG course.

As the course is based around the FGASA drills and geared towards stopping a charge, it puts both rifle and shooter under significant pressure

The drills are largely based around the CZ (or rather the CRF Mauser style action) as that is what most guides carry.

Considerable 'work arounds' therefore are required of the 'straight pull' brigade when dealing with high speed & blind fold reloads; also the miss fire drills along side the 'time and precision' off hand shooting required of the attendee.

I've never experienced any probs with the folk using R8 and Merkel rifles under these testing conditions

As for PH choice - if you have a rifle that works for you, that you know like the back of your hand and is already bought and paid for - you would be hard pressed to find an argument to change to a new fangled tool requiring the shelling out of a great deal of money and the acquisition of a new set of muscle memories

 

[lwaters]

If i was just starting to hunt africa today I would go with the R-8. When in Greenland the other two hunters from Europe had the R-8. One used a 30-06 and the other a 300 Weatherby. Both got their game. I was really impressed when we left the nice little gun cases they checked at the airport.I have heard more good reports than negative. One question I have is do you have to have to complete bolts if you have barrels for say 375H&H and 30-06.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Zimbabwe versus South Africa? Remember Zimbabwe has had a long standing arms embargo on importing firearms (does not apply to temporary import). Most of the rifles that you will see in use in Zim. have been here for a very long time. Thats not to say that the occasional new rifle does not find a way into the country.

I could not offer an opinion on Blasers if someone is happy with theirs so be it. When it comes to dust my pre war Rigby .416 works just fine. My pre war George Gibbs .470 double must be cleaned thoroughly at least once a day or it will not close, just too tight.

There is also confusion when it comes to licensing (different caliber barrels), but I am not going to go into that!

 

[IvW]

Blaser R8's are masterful modern firearms very reliable and very accurate with added safety measures. Great rifles.

I use Brno ZKK602 actioned rifles for back up work. They are cheap when compared, reliable and true working rifles. I have used them all my life and they have become extensions of my arms so to speak.

Problem for me is I could not afford the Blaser R8 in the calibers I prefer. 500 Jeff and 375 H&H. One wont do it for me.

When I am hunting DG I always have two rifles. My 500 Jeff and another 375 H&H carried by my tracker. I never go hunting DG with just one rifle. It also serves as a back up rifle for the client in case his rifle or ammo does not make it or something goes wrong with his rifle. When leopard comes in I also take my 12ga/12ga sxs poormans double or 12ga/9.3x74R o/u.

If I could I would gladly switch to the blaser R8 system but sadly I cannot afford to do so.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

Few young PH's can afford one. Few older PH's have any incentive to change what has been working for them for 20 years. They have a disincentive to switch to a new manual of arms.

As to why London best makers whose stock in trade is selling tradition, I think that is rather obvious and certainly not an argument against modern designs.

A few anecdotes hardly count as conclusive evidence. For example, I have had exactly 1 rifles fail to fire due to a direct problem with the rifle, which happened to be a GMA M98 action that had a bad heat treat on the bolt face which caused a crack and a piece to break off after 4-500 rounds. I would not proclaim it an unreliable design. Anecdotes are anecdotes and we all have them. Get a good data set and I'll pay more attention.

As to why the problem with my rifle didn't cause me any problems? I shot the hell out of it before it mattered. VERY few problems are going to be caused because you chose an R8 over an M98 or a (gasp!) push-feed action over a controlled-feed action. The vast majority of problems on a hunt will come from insufficient range time. Assuming even a marginally reasonable weapon choice, by far the most likely cause of a problem on a hunt comes from the shooter not the weapon.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

If i was just starting to hunt africa today I would go with the R-8. When in Greenland the other two hunters from Europe had the R-8. One used a 30-06 and the other a 300 Weatherby. Both got their game. I was really impressed when we left the nice little gun cases they checked at the airport.I have heard more good reports than negative. One question I have is do you have to have to complete bolts if you have barrels for say 375H&H and 30-06.

Just a different bolt head.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

I was trying to imagine a place, even in Canada, where it would be easier to find a Ross than a Blaser. I have never fired a Ross, only held one and worked the action. My assumption would be that the cycle would seem longer due to the placement of the magazine in relation to a conventIonal trigger. Obviously the design is quite different. The sporter I played with was a very elegant rifle. I was going to add that Terry Wieland has a laudatory chapter on the Ross in his new book but @mark-hunter beat me to it.

If you consider the difference in cost redleg it becomes a lot more understandable. I would hazard a geuss that .303 and .30-30 are still tied for most popular calibers in Nova Scotia. The majority of newer rifles I’ve seen around ranges or forsale tend to be budget minded offerings from mosberg or savage. There are only three stores within three hundred kilometres of me that even sell guns. Two are Canadian tires which sell the above mentioned budget minded rifles. The other is a small privately owned store and while the owner will order anything your willing to pay for I can’t see him investing in the neighborhood of 10 000 dollars to bring in a Blaser without a sale lined up.

 

[Red Leg]

If you consider the difference in cost redleg it becomes a lot more understandable. I would hazard a geuss that .303 and .30-30 are still tied for most popular calibers in Nova Scotia. The majority of newer rifles I’ve seen around ranges or forsale tend to be budget minded offerings from mosberg or savage. There are only three stores within three hundred kilometres of me that even sell guns. Two are Canadian tires which sell the above mentioned budget minded rifles. The other is a small privately owned store and while the owner will order anything your willing to pay for I can’t see him investing in the neighborhood of 10 000 dollars to bring in a Blaser without a sale lined up.

No, I get it Skinnersblade. I am just amazed and thrilled to know there is still a place in this ever smaller world where a Ross would be more common than a Blaser. You occasionally can find a sporter in .280 Ross on line in this country, but they will typically run a couple of grand for one in good shape.

 

[WAB]

No, I get it Skinnersblade. I am just amazed and thrilled to know there is still a place in this ever smaller world where a Ross would be more common than a Blaser. You occasionally can find a sporter in .280 Ross on line in this country, but they will typically run a couple of grand for one in good shape.

We actually studied the history of the Ross rifle in high school. Of course, we also had an indoor rifle range in our school. Yes that was in Canada! My how times have changed!

 

[bruce moulds]

i have fired a 280 ross, and it functioned well and kept working.
unlike a steyr straight pull.
this rifle using 8mm mil ammo started out well, but got stiffer and stiffer to function the action as shooting went on.
it must have been very unpleasant for soldiers using it in warfare.
bruce.

 

[mikecatt13]

@NWT has shown his colors.
It's up to other members if they choose to respond.

Personally, I'm out.

Same. I was going to offer my input based on my research, experience, etc. But in the time ive been on this forum the OP is by far the most obviously abrasive poster I've seen.

Theres no place for that here NWT. Many people have different preferences, opinions, and debate/discuss those things on these forums but if you want to troll or be rude, take it to facebook or something. This is by far the best hunting discussion platform I've encountered full of awesome and respectful people (even when they disagree on a subject)... let's keep it that way.

 

[Ragman]

As has been said above, I believe that most PHs and guides don't use the Blaser R8 for the same reason that I don't and that is simply the high cost to purchase one. When I was in the Eastern Cape two years ago there were a couple of hunters from Denmark that were sharing camp with us. One of them had his R8 out to show me and was obviously very proud of it. I was able to handle it (but not fire it) and could definitely see the appeal. However I would rather spend the money it would cost me to buy a Blaser to pay for another Africa trip! Besides, my better half would have my nuts if I even thought about it!

NWT the fellows on here that speak to the utility of the Blaser R8 on this forum ARE experts, whether it is Internet or real-life. There are several members on here that when they speak I listen. And @Red Leg is at the top of that list. He is a man who has been there and done that as they say. And his knowledge on a wide variety of subjects amazes me. I have total respect for that man and feel that you overstepped the AH etiquette.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

When I need to ask questions about quality firearms I have on several occasions pm’d @Red Leg. He has been a gentleman who has offered valued information. I also try to follow the threads he replies to as I generally learn something. I have found him to be a first class gentleman who can state his opinion without belittling or insulting anyone. Which is more then can be said for the original poster.

 

[samu]

Why do the PH’s who are hunting DG and the great bears chose not to use the Blaser R8’s?
I am not talking about the outfitters who run the high fence concessions in SA in a semi controlled environment, but the
the PH’s hunting wild Africa as in Tanzania or the great bear guides in Alaska.
If the Blaser R8 was the technological mechanical break through some think it is, why wouldn’t the people who hunt for a living
not use the Blaser R8?
Many PH’s will not put in print their true feelings in writing about the R8, as they do not want to offend their clients who are spending
a large sum of money to hunt with them, and their $10K Blaser R8.
Sure the Blaser R8 fits in a attaché case and lots of marketing dollars has been spent on advertising to convince the flock, but does that make it a DGR? I am not a fanboy.

How about you just don't buy one then?