Bowhunting ELEPHANT Best Setup

[Tam Dl]

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that Shepley is a knowledgeable guy. I am admittedly not a fan of PSE bows. They collectively have the nastiest draw cycle of any of the major brands on the market. And as a general rule, they all have very short brace heights making them very unforgiving. It's fitting that he offers a shooting school because his bows are extremely difficult to shoot accurately. He has opinions that work for some, but not for others. Lots of very good archers disagree with many of his opinions on form and practice. I am one of them.. I would not say he is the "go to guy" when consulting about dangerous game with archery equipment. He also happens to be the owner of a major bow manufacturer with an agenda to sell bows.

I shot a Matthews at his school, no problem. They haven't been at the forefront of archery for decades to my mind. My sole, point, I hope I didn't stray from it too much, is that the method for determining whether a person is overbowed that they have developed is excellent.

With respect, I completely disagree.... Under and over spining causes yaw (fish-tailing/nose diving). Yaw causes drag....Improperly spined arrows will not achieve near perfect flight. Without near perfect flight, you will loose both momentum and kinetic energy which are two of the most critical components of the penetration equation. You may be able to shoot a steel rod through any compound bow, but it won't fly straight....

The steel rod is maybe an exaggeration, but most bows will tune really stiff arrows, no problem. Unless you shoot fingers.

I too am confused by this statement... Why is the ability to stop a charge a requirement of a dangerous game archery hunt?

Kinda on the same basis as there is a difference between fighting an equal opponent in a boxing ring, and killing him with a drone strike. (I am not suggesting a drone strike is what archery hunting is)

But what I was trying to address, and I would have thought you would support, is the critical comment earlier in the thread that archery hunting was viewed by some as inhumane. I was trying to suggest there are reasons in hunting history for that. And in psychology. DG hunting was regarded as a heroic/glamourouse enterprise, hiding in the bush and shooting angling away animales was not the ideal.

Are you suggesting that the common sense safety measure of backing up the DG archery hunter with guns makes the hunt less challenging or a lesser accomplishment?

Yes and no. Is free soloing a rock climb like Alex Honnold does more or less of an accomplishment than using ropes? The issue is whether it is suicide. Honnold and those who went before prove it isn't immediate suicide. But the question of whether some other form of archery hunting is just outright suicide has not really been answered as hunting is for various reasons highly regulated. And you aren't playing with a piece of rock, but an animal.

"So when you ask make it a lessor accomplishment" I have to ask than what? If you went out with a gun and when the thing went pear shaped, where at least part of the team, or the main part dealing with the problem. That is the classical African Safari image. The hunter dealing with the dangerous game. Not hiding essentially unarmed in a protective detail. I am not judging, but I was trying to offer an alternative explanation as to why old timers didn't, and some still don't like the changes.

Are you also suggesting that by being guided and backed up by a team of professionals is a lesser hunt than a DIY hunt in North America? Get back to me with your opinion after your first African safari...

If you go to Africa and are guided, or for that mater the US, you are not hunting, you are shooting. Do they stand back and say "so where do you think the animals are today? And how should we get after them?" If they left you behind, would they be more or less likely to get the trophy. Every day I go hunting in my woods it wouldn't happen if I wasn't there. Case closed.

 

[Tam Dl]

Zim hasn't 'banned' real bows as you put it... All bowhunts now require a 'special permit' to be bought. ( the last word being the operative one. ) The Statutory Instrument legalising Bowhunting still stands. Quite why a 'special permit' is required for a bow hunt is anybody's guess.... it isn't gazetted. ( actually its a way to draw more money from the hunting sector). A practice which has effectively snuffed out Zim as a bowhunt venue for lots of folks.

Sorry, I picked up the idea that there was a difficult to get, and very expensive permit if you wanted to try with a non-compound. Is that true?

Trying to frontal brain shoot an Elephant with a bow isn't clever. It defeats all the reasoning we bow hunt... stealth, concealment... the perfect ambush...shooting animals that are not aware we're there... Besides the chance of screwing up is way too high for a shot like that to be considered ethical in my humble opinion.

I am not advocating frontally brain shooting elephants. (assuming the story is true as told, it is an interesting data point). I suppose one could say, any more than one would today shoot an elephant with the 7mm or the 303, as was once done by people who may have earned a right to their opinion on the mater, for the times. My point was just to say, the philosophy behind hunting, which was influenced by chivalry at one time has changed. Imagine a world where HH would do that, or if he lied about it as some people seem to think, would have thought it was a lie that put him in a good light. It isn't as though this is an African thing only. Famous hunters over here like Elmer Keith, and Jeff Cooper, didn't like bows either. We don't know the individual psychology, but any time some new form of sport comes on there are winners and losers who feel threatened by the ideas in the new sport.

 

[Tam Dl]

I have spent countless hours paper tuning and have never had a good tear with improperly spined arrows, many times all I've needed was a stiffer or weaker shaft and I can get it tuned to bullet hole. If it isn't flying straight it's wasting energy!!

Then you were spining at the lower end of the stiffness range. So you would wobble in and out of tune. If you were up high, a lighter arrow would have still been too stiff. So this isn't meaningful data.

I always liked Senior shooter (a lot of big wins last years, and he wins in a lot of different kinds of shooting, not just foam, has for decades) Tom Crowe's approach. He normally shoots whatever is Matthew's most radical speed bow, like the Monster set at 80 pounds, his arrows are 2613.....over 400 grains with 60 grain heads for IBO, he uses up to 350 grain heads for stuff like like 300 rounds indoors, same shaft. You can shoot logs like that, and a range like that out of compounds. He is also famous for banging arrows out of the bow high left, but the system doesn't require that. This was pretty standard stuff as far as the fat arrows are concerned, until they came out with linecutters in carbon.

Just to complete the unorthodox picture, he shoots wrist release, and brace heights in the 6" range. He uses an overdraw so he can shorten the arrows enough to get them to 5 grains. Pretty much the opposites guy for any argument.

 

[siml]

If you go to Africa and are guided, or for that mater the US, you are not hunting, you are shooting. Do they stand back and say "so where do you think the animals are today? And how should we get after them?" If they left you behind, would they be more or less likely to get the trophy. Every day I go hunting in my woods it wouldn't happen if I wasn't there. Case closed.

I totally disagree with that statement. A guided hunt doesn't mean you shooting and not hunting. I discuss the next days hunting with the client and trackers, we work as a team. If it was only shooting, then guides would have 100% success.

 

[firehuntfish]

My sole, point, I hope I didn't stray from it too much, is that the method for determining whether a person is overbowed that they have developed is excellent.

I hate to break it to you, but you don't need to go to an expensive multi-day archery class to determine if you are over-bowed... Sit on the ground with your legs folded "Indian style" and draw your bow... If you have to struggle or contort your upper body to get drawn, then you are over-bowed.... I hope you didn't pay hundreds of dollars for that information?

But what I was trying to address, and I would have thought you would support, is the critical comment earlier in the thread that archery hunting was viewed by some as inhumane. I was trying to suggest there are reasons in hunting history for that. And in psychology. DG hunting was regarded as a heroic/glamourouse enterprise, hiding in the bush and shooting angling away animales was not the ideal.

Who are you referring to that views archery hunting as inhumane? Anti-hunters? I could honestly care less what the anti's think. Their uninformed, emotional views carry no weight in reality....Those critical of the ethics of archery don't understand it. As far as referencing history, hunting with stick and string or spear far predates any other forms of hunting. So, what history are you referencing? Again to my original point, reserve your opinion on archery hunting for dangerous game until you have witnessed it for yourself.

If you go to Africa and are guided, or for that mater the US, you are not hunting, you are shooting. Do they stand back and say "so where do you think the animals are today? And how should we get after them?" If they left you behind, would they be more or less likely to get the trophy. Every day I go hunting in my woods it wouldn't happen if I wasn't there. Case closed.

TMS beat me to it... Case is not closed...! You are entitled to your opinion, but this is completely ridiculous and kind of insulting to anyone who has been on a guided hunt. Have you actually been on a guided hunt yourself, or are you speculating on the experience as you are with DG archery hunting in Africa?

There are lots of different guided hunt options, and it is up to each individual hunter to research the type of guided experience that they are looking for. I rely on the guide to put me in the best area at the best times, and show me the local techniques to give me the best odds for success in that area. As TMS eluded to, we work as a team, glassing, calling, planning a stalk, and discussing the options. The guide does not accompany me on the final stalk nor does he sit in my stand with me. He doesn't determine when I draw my bow or where I place the arrow.

If a completely DIY hunt is your personal preference,that's fine, but it's arrogant to put down a guided hunt option. I think it would serve you well to consider that the rewards and challenges of hunting are very subjective to each individual. Not every hunt has to be an iron man challenge to be fun or rewarding in its own right.... We also need to respect all forms of legal hunting methods even though they may not be our particular preference personally.

 

[firehuntfish]

Then you were spining at the lower end of the stiffness range. So you would wobble in and out of tune. If you were up high, a lighter arrow would have still been too stiff. So this isn't meaningful data.

I must say once again, WTF are you talking about?? Paper tuning is the most definitive way of determining near perfect arrow flight. Wobble in and out of tune? I would love to hear how an arrow can be in and out of tune flight? Either it is in tune or not..... Higher up? Do you mean in elevation or spine stiffness? I'm almost afraid to ask for a clarification

 

[rookhawk]

I'll be the jerk here for comedic effect:

It seems an awful lot of cost and aggravation to go to Africa to watch a PH kill an elephant with a 458 after you've knicked it with a toothpick.

But seriously here. I know several Africa bowhunters for DG and every one of their "trophies" seems a rather embarrassing display to me. Nothing DG died from the arrow, it died from the PH. This is with 1000gr arrows and 100# bows. (on buffalo specifically) Not that anyone cares, but it don't impress me much.

What would impress me a lot: An archer working the jess silently and methodically all day every day doing spot and stalk with a bow on Bushbuck, Nyala and Duiker. That would be an incredible feat and much more impressive than making jumbo mad with a toothpick and then watching him get pounding in the head by a 416 rigby in the hands of the PH.

I'll now hide from your angry arrows.

 

[firehuntfish]

But seriously here. I know several Africa bowhunters for DG and every one of their "trophies" seems a rather embarrassing display to me. Nothing DG died from the arrow, it died from the PH. This is with 1000gr arrows and 100# bows. (on buffalo specifically) Not that anyone cares, but it don't impress me much.

I can't speak for every outfit here that pursues dangerous game with archery equipment for their clients. I can only attest to the DG hunts that I have been either a part of, or in camp at the time of the hunt, and I can only recall one instance out of dozens where a rifle shot was necessary to dispatch the animal.... That was an instance with a lioness where the arrow shot provoked a direct charge. If the PH or the client is regularly killing the animal with a rifle on bow hunts, the hunt is not being conducted properly... Either the hunter, the PH or both do not know what they are doing. As a bow hunter pursuing DG, it needs to be understood that it may be necessary for the PH to shoot the animal with a gun if the safety of anyone involved in the hunt is at risk. That said, there is no reason that an archer utilizing the proper set-up with good shot placement cannot be just as lethal as a rifle hunter. Poor shots occur just as commonly with rifle hunter as they do with bow hunters... Do not kid yourself...

So, what about DG hunters on rifle hunts where follow up kill shots where taken by the PH? Still "unimpressive"?

You mention that all of the archery hunts for DG that you are aware of required the animal to ultimately be killed with a rifle? I can speculate as to a host of reasons why the PH would shoot the animal rather than continue the pursuit with bow & arrow until the animal is down. Ego, impatience, and inexperience are likely among the reasons I would guess, yet safety of the hunting party should really be the only reason. Any PH or outfitter that takes on DG for their bow hunting clients has a special obligation to know what they are doing. They also need to ensure that their client knows what they are doing. It is obviously much more dangerous than a rifle hunt, which is dangerous enough.... But, the process of a DG bow hunt is drastically different. The animal needs time to hemorrhage and expire after even the best placed arrow. Given the time, I'm sure many of those animal you speak of would have expired without a rifle being used.

I'll now hide from your angry arrows.

No angry arrows.... Just difference of perspective. Your opinions indicate that you are obviously not a bow hunter.

 

[rookhawk]

Amateur bow hunter. I've taken around a dozen animals. I'm thinking of the scenario that is common, going into Jess after wounded DG. The archer has little room to sky draw down a 100lb bow and get the second shot in the thick stuff. The PH is left in a real pickle with these scenarios.

If you can make contact again with the buffalo at 40 yards and let ther archer plug away, great. If it's dead already from the arrow, awesome. Just a lot to go wrong and having a PH retrieve solo with a rifle is the same let down as a PH forced to go solo after a wounded leopard. The PH is in a dicey spot and he fears for client safety.

I'm not anti archer and I'm not anti shooting from safety of a blind. It seems to be a dangerous play going after DG on a stalk in thick Jess with a bow if the intent is to let the archer take all the shots. Elephant especially so.

Anyone here taken elephant with a bow with no rifle discharged in the process?

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

Anyone here taken elephant with a bow with no rifle discharged in the process?

Hunting Elephant By Bow With A Single Arrow: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/hunting-elephant-by-bow-with-a-single-arrow.14776/

 

[mrpoindexter]

But seriously here. I know several Africa bowhunters for DG and every one of their "trophies" seems a rather embarrassing display to me. Nothing DG died from the arrow, it died from the PH. This is with 1000gr arrows and 100# bows. (on buffalo specifically) Not that anyone cares, but it don't impress me much.

I'll now hide from your angry arrows.

On buffalo specifically, I was shooting 81lbs on a Mathews Monster Safari with an 844 grain arrow. Complete pass through, breaking ribs going in and coming out. Animal ran 65 yards and died so quick that I didn't even get a death bellow. If you are shooting a 1000 grain arrow from a 100 pound bow and don't kill a buffalo, it is because you didn't hit it in the right place.

I expect to be after a hippo next year and hopefully won't need a PH to shoot him for me, but that will likely only happen if there is a charge coming my way.

 

[Synergy]

I'm sure that a good hit with a bow is as deadly as a good hit with a rifle, dangerous game or not

 

[mrpoindexter]

Yes and no. Just as mortal probably, but we don't get the benefits of hydrostatic shock to knock the animal down or the speed on follow up shots. With our range being generally closer and not having an instant kill frontal shot with any animal larger than a bushbuck, the risk posed by a charge is larger.

The arrow is an amazingly deadly weapon though. That an AR-15 is borderline acceptable to take down a deer and we can take down animals 50x as large with a bow and a single arrow just blows my mind.

 

[Ratnik]

Hi guys,

What KE calculators are you using for your setups?

I have no intention of hunting an elephant, however I want to buy a hard hitting 90 lb+ bow for fun and I'm using elephant hunting rigs as a sort of metric for power. However I'm not sure where people are getting some of their numbers from. The rig I'm looking at has an IBO of 370 (King Cobra TF), and at 90 lb at 27" draw the Backcountry calculator says I'll be doing around 314 fps for 120 KE with a 550 grain arrow. However with a 1100 grain arrow it says I'll only be doing 150 fps for 54 KE. Even at a theoretical 32" draw it'll only be going at 200 fps for 96 KE.

I've read of someone taking an elephant with a 90 lb bow and 1100 grain arrow doing 210 fps with 107 KE at 29" draw, and this is a good number of years ago with a less efficient bow. How is this possible? Is my calculator way off or am I missing something really obvious?

Thanks

 

[mrpoindexter]

The online calculators all work the same for kinetic energy and momentum as the math is a simple, straightforward formula. The estimation of arrow speed on all of them is way, way off, especially when using a heavy arrow.

I have found only one program that was accurate on estimating now speed and it was not free. Software for archers is the name of the program and it will give you estimates of arrow speed that actually match real world values. I think it was only $10-15 for the program, but since the free ones have all been way wrong, their price is pretty good.

Kinetic energy in Ft-Lbs= arrow weight in grains * arrow speed in FPS ^2 / 450,800.

Arrow momentum in slugs = arrow weight in grains * arrow speed in FPS / 225,400

 

[Ratnik]

Thank you.

I downloaded a free trial version of that program and it's giving me around 226 fps for 125 KE with a 1100 grain arrow, which seems a lot more realistic. I was very confused with the stats I got from the free online programs, but I guess you get what you pay for.

 

[mrpoindexter]

Yeah, the online calculators work off assumptions that speed will go through a straight line reduction as you add mass and their assumptions have not been tested to see that they correlate with real world numbers. Also, they universally underestimate speeds of bows with heavy arrows because they don't take into account increases in efficiency of the bow when using a heavier arrow.

 

[edward]

I will say this, the guys, I know that have bow hunted elephants, went to the weight room everyday and worked on there muscle in there upper body and even their legs. They did a lot of preparation for the hunt. Heck, I even know the woman on the show "Dangerous Game" that did it a few years ago on Versus. If you are going to hunt elephant with a bow...you better be prepared!

You should give Pete Shepley, owner of PSE Archery a call, he's lost elephants...hunting them with a bow. I have talked to Tom Miranda before too. You are going to need to pull a lot of weight. Maybe the Safari bow at 85 pounds is good enough....but I'd ask Mattews archery first.

I agree with you a heavy arrow and sharp broadhead are very key....but a elephant is nothing to toy with, you could get someone killed playing around with the wrong set up.

and that someone could be you.

 

[Devin Twitty]

Calculations for arrow speed when you set up can be way off. The only way you can get a accurate fps and ke for a set up is to shoot it over a chrono. Not all bows perform with heavy arrows. Some are way more efficient, case and point my wife shoots 24" draw 45lbs of draw and can shoot my 470grn arrows at 205fps her last bow 25"draw 47lb shot it at 180fps with a 20fps higher ibo rating and both bows had short draw cams. Draw cycle let off limb design all play part in a bows speed with big heavy arrows.

 

[Ratnik]

What targets do you guys use for practice? I'm looking at buying/building a portable target after I buy my new bow, but I'm concerned about overpenetration and shredding up targets quickly if I'm shooting a 90 lb bow with heavy arrows. How would something like a Rinehart 18-1 hold up?