Can we please stop talking about "flat shooting" cartridges

[WAB]

Interesting thread. I’ve shot a lot of prairie dogs in that 350 to 450 window. The .22 hornet falls away from the pack at about 225 to 250 but more interesting is how badly the .223 fares relative to the .22-250 and .220 at 400+. The drop is certainly an issue, but wind drift really kicks in out there. Variable winds really open groups up at range. You fight this with BC and velocity, but mostly BC.

I’m working on longish range rifles for Coues deer. I have two that will perform in that 400 to 600 window and neither was selected due to their trajectory. I’m more interested in accuracy at range and terminal performance. They are chambered in .308 and .325. Both will center punch a grapefruit at 400.

 

[shark_za]

Bob your Whelen is loaded so fast; I could probably do the same with 232gr bullets but then I would also have to put on a different scope.
Right now I'm setup to shoot 286gr bullets at ranges between 70-120m , a 100m zero has this drop at 250m. The scope is a basic 2-7x32 that works really well in the bushveld.
Taking a 30-06 and setting it up right would work, scope and load must suit the scenario.
I get the point of the post, you can setup most calibers that shoot over 2600fps to do well at ranges up to 300m.
Calibers that leave the barrel at say 2300fps are really pushing that assumption.

 

[Jfet]

Exactly this.

For new shooters in particular, even 300 yards is kind of a long poke. At 200 yards, inconsistent cheek weld and poor breathing/trigger control isn't a big deal. At 300 yards, it translates into shooting that is inconsistent enough to qualify as an unethical shot distance.

NO, NO, NO! You can’t go there. The moment you mention body mechanics in shooting is the moment you put the responsibility onto the shooter. It is never the shooters fault. It must always be the gun, load development, or bullet type that is the reason for the inaccuracy.

I like your chart, though.

 

[sgt_zim]

I agree 100% on the 300 yard and insignificant differences part, but that 8" basis for the MPBR gives me the Willie's. For the 6.5 NPt example (I load it, btw) - if zeroed at 255 - that puts the bullet 2.9 to 3.6" high from 90 all the way to 190 yards.

Kind of a weird zero distance in the US, but we have a 200 meter berm (219 yards) that has worked for everything from 223 to 338 WM. Keeping everything within 2.5" above/below line of site to 250 yards. And everything at the same 9" (and some fraction) low at 325 yards.

You wouldn't actually zero at 255 yards for the 6.5CM. You'd sight in at 3.5" high at 100 yards.

an 8" basis for MPBR is kinda stretching it for white tail, but would certainly be well within the ballpark for larger deer like red deer, elk, and moose, and would probably work for mountain mulies

 

[sgt_zim]

Your list shows all flat shooting calibers.
Add 9.3x62 and .30-30 to the list and see the difference. There are 150m calibers and 250m calibers. The slight differences in the same ballpark are not worth fighting over.
I'm not happy shooting a Gemsbok at 250m with my 6.5 (energy) or my 9.3 (drop) so want a "flat shooting" hard hitting caliber that carries enough energy to hammer these hardy beasts.
7mmRM or .300WM would be best but even a 30-06 or 7x64 would do.

Given similar ballistic coefficients and MV, a 9.3x62 and a 308W have similar ballistic arc.

The 2 highest BC 286 gr bullets I know of are Partition (.482) and Hornady Interlock (.40). Get either of those bullets in the 2450 fps neighborhood and you're looking at almost an identical arc to a 308 firing 180 grain.

250 gr Accubond has a BC of almost 0.5. get it to 2550 or 2600 fps, and it's an identical arc to a 308 shooting 180s.

Weldcore and A Frame 286 are both just shy of 0.4.

 

[Tbitty]

You wouldn't actually zero at 255 yards for the 6.5CM. You'd sight in at 3.5" high at 100 yards.

an 8" basis for MPBR is kinda stretching it for white tail, but would certainly be well within the ballpark for larger deer like red deer, elk, and moose, and would probably work for mountain mulies

Forgive my ignorance on this topic, but i have a fairly simple question. When you say "8 inch basis for MPBR", I take that to mean you have a min/max of +/- 4" over the course of trajectory, correct? For some reason I've always used this smaller number (4" inches high or low in this example) when discussing MPBR.

Not that it really matters, we'd be saying the same thing either way.

 

[shark_za]

Trying to sell me on the 308W , LOL, that thing that wants to be a .30-06 but falls way short.

This is realistic factory PPU ammo trajectory at this point, its perfect in the bush, but I wont try make it a plains rifle. I guess a 9.3 loaded with the highest BC 250gr and a higher power scope could make an all purpose rifle, but then you lose some of the bushveld appeal.
Looking at tables, the BC is secondary to MV at ranges under 250m when it comes to drop.

 

[RTG]

Using MPBR and comparing apples to apples (Nosler Partitions only), let's put this concept to bed for good. In common small bores, there is no practical difference in trajectories out to 300 yards, so PLEASE stop talking about it. It isn't even remotely interesting.

For people new to the sport, to me, the hands down winners of best cartridge selection are 7mm-08 and 6.5CM, simply due to a lack of recoil. Neither of them gives up any ground to any of the other popular hunting cartridges.

For the 270 fan bois out there, sorry, it ain't all that and a bag of donuts. It's good, but no better than any of the others.

cartridge	MV (fps)	Zero distance (MPBR for 8" target, in yards)	bullet	bullet weight (grains)	100 yard trajectory	100 yard energy	200 yard trajectory	200 yard energy	300 yard trajectory	300 yard energy
270 Winchester	3050	282	Partition	130	3.2"	2295	3.6"	1954	-1.3	1654
270 Winchester	2850	268	Partition	150	3.4"	2344	3.3"	2023	-2.5	1737
7mm-08	2800	261	Partition	140	3.4"	2087	3.1"	1779	-3.3	1507
6.5CM/6.5x55	2700	255	Partition	140	3.5"	1972	2.9"	1709	-3.9	1474
308 Win	2850	262	Partition	150	3.4"	2276	3.2"	1903	-3.2	1579
30-06	3000	275	Partition	150	3.3"	2530	3.4"	2124	-1.9	1771
7mm RM/280 AI	3000	289	Partition	150	3.5"	2596	3.9"	2241	-0.8	1925

Fantastic list of cartridges, all my favorites in one place. If you lived in Wyoming however, you might not even look at 100 and 200 yards performance, every bullet will get the job done at those close ranges. Hell at under 200 yards, give me a bigger bullet every time.

First off, if a longer MPBR was a hunters concern, Partitions wouldn’t even be considered.

Second, not everyone hunts where you hunt. Some of us must prepare for less than ideal circumstances like wind, distance. You didn’t mention wind, so it’s probably not an issue for you locally.

More slippery, heavier for caliber bullets:
Hornady 7mm mag 162gr eld-x, 2940fps, 365yard MPBR at sea level, 371yards at 5000’
Hornady 270 win 145gr eld-x, 2970fps, 363yard MPBR at sea level, 369yards at 5000’

now you are slightly better equipped for Wyoming plains hunting. Knowledge is half the battle.

"I do agree though, till you cross the 300 yard line there is little difference in trajectory!"

And what percentage of big game is actually shot beyond 300 yards?
Shot and killed, not just shot at.

In Wyoming, and most of our neighboring states, probably 50% of rifle kills are 300 yards plus. Don’t forget the ability to buck the wind past 300 yards either. Flat shooting matters here, but all of those cartridges get the job done with a better choice of bullets.

Every hunter I know has a range limit in mind. This limit is governed by their own kit, ability, and the type of critter being hunted. Limits often drop tremendously with addition of strong wind. Bottom line, be prepared for anything.

 

[sgt_zim]

@sgt_zim
My 25 is set at 2 inches high at 100, depending on projectile it zeros at 275 to 300 yards and fulfilling your criteria at 325 to 350 yards.
The Whelen is sighted 2.5 to 3 inches high at 100 and has a point blank range between 200 and 300 yards depending on projectiles.
As you said most game is shot at 200 yards or less. If I was honest I have probably taken lees than 10 head of game past 350 yards in over 40 years. I would say at least 80% were between 50 to 150 yards. Yes it is nice having a flat shooter.
Is it needed very often, NO.
I could more than likely sight my rifles in to be spot on at 150 yards for a point blank range of 200 to 250 yards and be happy with that for the rest of my life for hunting.
Just my humble opinion.
Bob

The longest shot on an animal I've ever taken is about 180 yards.

In the eastern US (to me, that's everything east of Interstate Highway 35, which runs from Minneapolis, Minnesota south all the way down through San Antonio, Texas, and then on down to the Mexican border at Nuevo Laredo), the majority of the hunting is in timber. There's plenty of farm and livestock land thrown in there where long distance shooting (beyond 300 yards) is on the table, but that's the exception, not the rule. West of I-35 is mostly the opposite of that.

The front pasture on my place is about 300 yards from the highway to the tree line, but once you reach the tree line, you generally can't see past 50 or 60 yards.

 

[Joker12]

We should also mention here that pointy sexy looking bullets offer no advantage at normal hunting ranges and that plain old round noses actually perform better on impact.

 

[MS 9x56]

Why not? have you shot your 9.3 at longer distances or looked at a bullet drop chart? I disagree that it drops heaps, go and have a look. with my hand loads and zero on my 9.3 at that distance, I would only need about 4-5 inches hold over. And that's just because I have it zero's dead on at 100m.

I use the old JOC sight in of 3" high at 100 and I have not encountered any reason in the game fields to change it. This post just proves the age old proverb from the auto industry. There is no replacement for displacement. That and recoil aversion is a personal choice not a factor in everyone's caliber choices. Interesting discussion though.

 

[sgt_zim]

Fantastic list of cartridges, all my favorites in one place. If you lived in Wyoming however, you might not even look at 100 and 200 yards performance, every bullet will get the job done at those close ranges. Hell at under 200 yards, give me a bigger bullet every time.

First off, if a longer MPBR was a hunters concern, Partitions wouldn’t even be considered.

Second, not everyone hunts where you hunt. Some of us must prepare for less than ideal circumstances like wind, distance. You didn’t mention wind, so it’s probably not an issue for you locally.

More slippery, heavier for caliber bullets:
Hornady 7mm mag 162gr eld-x, 2940fps, 365yard MPBR at sea level, 371yards at 5000’
Hornady 270 win 145gr eld-x, 2970fps, 363yard MPBR at sea level, 369yards at 5000’

now you are slightly better equipped for Wyoming plains hunting. Knowledge is half the battle.


In Wyoming, and most of our neighboring states, probably 50% of rifle kills are 300 yards plus. Don’t forget the ability to buck the wind past 300 yards either. Flat shooting matters here, but all of those cartridges get the job done with a better choice of bullets.

Every hunter I know has a range limit in mind. This limit is governed by their own kit, ability, and the type of critter bing hunted. Limits often drop tremendously with addition of strong wind. Bottom line, be prepared for anything.

No disagreement with any of that. Most of my hunting is in Louisiana, right on the Mississippi border. There are very few opportunities for long shots.

Not sure why you're throwing shade at NP, though. For premium hunting bullets, the only ones that generally have better ballistic coefficients are Accubonds.

ELD-X is a slick bullet, no error - I use them for plinking/target practice in my 6.5x55 and my 308 Win. No appreciable difference in BC between 162 gr 7mm and 143 gr 6.5mm.

My fear is I'd run across a real trophy at 50 yards, and at 2700+ fps impact velocity (like you'd have in a 270 or 7mmRM), they'll fragment as badly as any other cup and core. That very scenario was the genesis of John Nosler's revolutionary Partition in the first place, all the way back in 1946.

Where you hunt in Big Sky country, ELD-X is an excellent choice.

 

[Randy F]

Interesting thread with a lot of info.

Sometimes I like to shoot out to 300+ but I don’t like to hunt past 200 so I guess I’ve never really paid as much attention to what’s considered “flat shooting” as I probably should. So good info. But I do shoot as much as I can with the calibers I’ll use depending on terrain, cover, and yada yada. When it comes to hunting, I like to get close. Stalking with a bow stopped me from the “this is close enough” thing with a gun and it’s been more fun since.
Practice enough with what I have and rest becomes secondary for me.

But I get the point of the thread so for target shooting, I appreciate the info.

Side note: I don’t like to shoot too far out, it’s too hard on my old gun.

 

[MS 9x56]

I am growing to like 220 hornandy interlocks in mine. I need to try them on game. (I expect good things)

Just be sure to use it on big game non light framed game, it will pencil through without causing a lot of internal damage. Ask me how I know? A long tracking job in a snowstorm resulted in recovery and taught me another game field lesson. It is my got to for bear, elk, and moose.

 

[sgt_zim]

Forgive my ignorance on this topic, but i have a fairly simple question. When you say "8 inch basis for MPBR", I take that to mean you have a min/max of +/- 4" over the course of trajectory, correct? For some reason I've always used this smaller number (4" inches high or low in this example) when discussing MPBR.

Not that it really matters, we'd be saying the same thing either way.

Exactly. MPBR is calculated on the size of the intended animal's vital zone. The bigger the animal, the further you can stretch MPBR.

Hunting moose with 300 Win Mag, a 400-450 yard MPBR works. Shrink the animal down to a white tail, MPBR becomes about 300 yards.

From https://shooterscalculator.com

Here is an example: Let's say you are deer hunting. The vital zone of deer is roughly 8 inches. Using the calculator it tells you that you should zero your rifle at 250 yards and that the MPBR is 300 yards. That means that if you aim at the center of the vital zone of a deer at any range between 0 and 300 yards, you will hit the vital zone. This means that you do not need to worry about any bullet drop or holding over if the animal is within the MPBR.

One description of the MPBR concept that has been used a lot over the years is to visualize shooting with your barrel centered inside an imaginary pipe. The size of the target determines the size of the pipe. The maximum point blank range is the furthest distance at which a bullet fired from a rifle will stay inside the pipe without hitting the top or the bottom.

 

[MS 9x56]

But you didn't address if a 45/70 was flat enough to kill a buffalo at 301 yards using DGX bullets.

Only if you can calculate holdover. Bison hunters 160 years ago found it worked just fine but not with pointed bullets either.

 

[Tbitty]

Using MPBR and comparing apples to apples (Nosler Partitions only), let's put this concept to bed for good. In common small bores, there is no practical difference in trajectories out to 300 yards, so PLEASE stop talking about it. It isn't even remotely interesting.

While I agree with the concept, I'll disagree with the last sentence.

I've often said (and did, when I was younger without the means to load develop), I could take almost any rifle I was using, with almost any ammo, sight it in 1.5-2" high at 100 yards and not really have to worry about holdover to around 250 yards. Where I hunted, there was no reason to need anything more than that.

However, I now very much enjoy the discussion and knowledge to talk all details of cartridge performance. Using X powder pushes Y bullet faster, but Z powder is more Accurate for Rifle #1. But in Rifle #2, ... , you get the idea. I also love talking bullet selection, especially for application. Specifically to your point about trajectory, I thoroughly enjoy knowing the performance of the gun in hand with ammo being used, and talking about how it will perform vs another option.

The reason for this, IMO, is that it circles back to the concept of chasing perfection. We all want a rifle that will group 5 touching or 3 in a cloverleaf. We would happily accept a rifle that can't get 2 to touch in a 5 shot group, but holds MOA as consistently as @Bob Nelson 35Whelen holds a Whelen while on safari. For practical applications, one is no better than the other, but it's sure fun to talk about.

 

[MS 9x56]

@shark_za
I shot my Impala at 275 yards with my Whelen with no hold over. On Gemsbok/oryx I would take a shot at 300 yards if I had to without an issue.
Bob

Spoken by a true hunter!

 

[RTG]

No disagreement with any of that. Most of my hunting is in Louisiana, right on the Mississippi border. There are very few opportunities for long shots.

Not sure why you're throwing shade at NP, though. For premium hunting bullets, the only ones that generally have better ballistic coefficients are Accubonds.

ELD-X is a slick bullet, no error - I use them for plinking/target practice in my 6.5x55 and my 308 Win. No appreciable difference in BC between 162 gr 7mm and 143 gr 6.5mm.

My fear is I'd run across a real trophy at 50 yards, and at 2700+ fps impact velocity (like you'd have in a 270 or 7mmRM), they'll fragment as badly as any other cup and core. That very scenario was the genesis of John Nosler's revolutionary Partition in the first place, all the way back in 1946.

Where you hunt in Big Sky country, ELD-X is an excellent choice.

When I lived in Arizona, I made fun of high-power scopes on high-powered rifles. Was told many hunting stories where someone got an opportunity at an elk at close range. They couldn’t see up close well enough through their high-powered scope to make a shot however. Animals either get away (ideally) or got shot poorly and suffered. On my only Arizona elk hunt I used a Winchester 1886 extra light 45/70 with irons. Elk died immediately. I thought that was the only way to hunt.

The first time I was invited to a Hunt in Wyoming, the local who took me under his wing insisted I use his rifle instead. If I hadn’t, I wouldn’t have gotten that first Whitetail. Different world.

You are right, most bullets are built with a certain velocity in mind. You have to dig and research the ideal impact velocities of each bullet. 6.5 143gr eld-x was designed with creedmoor in mind. Now loaded in the faster PRC too. But the bullets ideal range of impact velocities remains the same. So this changes your optimal ranges.

Some companies now print intended ranges on the box. These two are a bit extreme but I was looking at another brand a couple weeks ago and it listed ranges like 100-600 and 150-700 yards. I think it was Nosler‘s new long range hunting ammo.

 

[sgt_zim]

I like this chart. I'll send it to a friend who is convinced his 6.5CM is one of those "flat-shootin' rifles". Off the top of my head, I think I've shot 3 big game animals at 400+ yards, 1 deer and 2 antelope. The longest was 442 according to the range finder. There's only been a handful taken beyond 250yd. The majority have been 150yd or less, including a couple dozen antelope.
There have been a lot of shots not taken because "I think I can get a little closer" resulted in seeing what the south end looks like. Much prefer to still hunt elk in the dark timber rather than sit a meadow and poke one at 3-400 yards. Believe my count is 6 shot in their bed at ranges from 30-80 yards. Longest shot I've taken on an elk was 130 yards. As a bowhunter that has to use a rifle (rotator issues), I prefer to be up close and personal; if I can smell them, that's good.

For any of the 264s, you can get quite a flat trajectory at long range with 2 specific bullets: Hornady ELD-X 143 gr and Nosler AccuBond Long Range, both of which have a G1 BC of 0.625. In the low recoil category of target rifles, it makes 6.5CM a really good choice.

Even at 2700 fps and with a 307 yard MPBR, it's still about 3 - 3.5" low at 300 yards. At that velocity and a 100 yard zero, it only needs about 21 feet of elevation adjustment to reach 1000 yards.

That's in the same neighborhood as a 212 gr ELD-X fired from a 300 Win Mag, which is quite good. In contrast, my 308 Win firing 178 gr ELD-X needs about 32 or 33 feet of elevation adjustment to reach 1000 yards.