CBL Debate Over, CBL Loses

[cajunchefray]

Article did not say anything about their CCP masters demand for bones.

I am uninformed on this topic.
I believe the CCP has great (too great?) leverage in the market (and many other markets).
Can you explain? I read a lot, but am ignorant about this subject.

I know what they have done to the ivory trade, and rhino horn trade in East Africa and South Africa.
Money talks, sometimes way too much.

 

[Woodcarver]

I respectfully disagree.
CBL hunting is not recognized by SCI and advertising of it banned in their publications and convention.
Also if we don't condemn and ban practices like that we'll give more fuel to anti-hunting crowd to convince the general public.
I'm not anti hunting by any stretch of imagination obviously but after seeing the places where they were bred I was disgusted.

None of the books recognize any animals shot inside a high fence. Should those hunts be banned?
To be clear, I differentiate between a canned hunt and a CBL hunt on a large enough property. What's large enough seems to be one of the questions that varies between individuals.

Something missing from your analysis is the history of CBL. There is no tradition associated with it and it’s a farming invention in the last 30 years. It’s easier to blame the anti-hunters than the hunters and farmers that pushed this activity forward. These hunts were originally sold as problem lions from Botswana trying to avoid discussing where they came from. Then the lie was told they were taking pressure off wild lion populations by reducing hunting demand, however wild lions are managed on very small and that money is needed to fund conservation efforts on huge areas. It simply devalued wild lions by offering a cheap and 100% successful quick hunt in South Africa for those only interested in the trophy. No major hunting organization supports this activity aside from PHASA who’s members make money from the practice. The hunters supporting this do more damage dividing hunters than the anti’s ever could have, but it’s easier to blame the anti-hunters.

I understand the history of CBL. The misinformation of them being problem lions as a marketing ploy is what it is, a marketing ploy. The real problem was created when those with lions to be sold found people who were willing to shoot one in a pen through a fence; the definition of a canned hunt. An abominable practice I think everyone on this forum agrees on. The CBL hunts that I've looked at and read reports about, aren't canned hunts. I know others disagree about this; but that is the point I was making. If you or others don't see the distinction between a canned execution vs a CBL hunt on a property large enough to have to hunt, then don't participate in the CBL hunt. But it hurts the wild lion hunter as well when the CBL hunt gets banned; the anti's will be shooting for those hunts to end next.
I don't see that CBL hunts have devalued the wild lion hunts. The price differences I see don't support that. With the trade in lion bones, it absolutely makes sense that CBL have taken pressure off the wild lions. Why go through the expense & risk of poaching wild when you can buy legally? That will change when the legal market gets shut down.

What might be getting missed in this, another CBL vs wild discussion, is that a ban such as this hurts every hunter, in every country, hunting any animal, using any method. Those that want hunting banned in the world will use this as a means to raise money and go after the next rung. They have a stated goal-ban it all.
"The hunters supporting this do more damage dividing hunters than the anti’s ever could have, but it’s easier to blame the anti-hunters." It takes both sides arguing to divide us. Figuring out how to support a type/method that you or I don't like is what it takes. If the anti's weren't actively working to shut down hunting, would this thread, or the one about countries banning the import of any trophy, been started? The enemy is the anti-hunters, not hunters that disagree on some aspect of hunting. They are who is to blame, so it is easier to blame them.

 

[Rubberhead]

Wild lions cost money (a small pride of lions can eat $5 million US in Cape Buffalo every year). CBLs make money.

I don't like the practice. I am unimpressed with anyone that does it to impress others. I would never do it myself.

Let's face it though, we all dream of getting a plaintive radio message while we're on safari asking us to take care of a "problem lion" and save the locals from certain death or starvation. The unfortunate truth is that the people that dream of getting that radio message outnumber problem lions by a factor of about 10,000 to 1.

 

[Hunt anything]

Does this include zoos? Says all captive lions.

 

[John Wasmuth]

….

 

[revturbo9967]

I’ll have to disagree with you there.

Disagree with what? Pro hunting enthusiasts happy to end this nonsense they call hunting?

 

[Tanks]

...No major hunting organization supports this activity aside from PHASA who’s members make money from the practice. The hunters supporting this do more damage dividing hunters than the anti’s ever could have, but it’s easier to blame the anti-hunters.

PHs from Zim hate the CBL hunting as well. They have refused to support PHASA in this matter when asked to do so.

 

[Flewis]

A little bit anti hunting. A little bit anti gun. A little bit pregnant. It’s all the same.

 

[375Fox]

None of the books recognize any animals shot inside a high fence. Should those hunts be banned?
To be clear, I differentiate between a canned hunt and a CBL hunt on a large enough property. What's large enough seems to be one of the questions that varies between individuals.

I understand the history of CBL. The misinformation of them being problem lions as a marketing ploy is what it is, a marketing ploy. The real problem was created when those with lions to be sold found people who were willing to shoot one in a pen through a fence; the definition of a canned hunt. An abominable practice I think everyone on this forum agrees on. The CBL hunts that I've looked at and read reports about, aren't canned hunts. I know others disagree about this; but that is the point I was making. If you or others don't see the distinction between a canned execution vs a CBL hunt on a property large enough to have to hunt, then don't participate in the CBL hunt. But it hurts the wild lion hunter as well when the CBL hunt gets banned; the anti's will be shooting for those hunts to end next.
I don't see that CBL hunts have devalued the wild lion hunts. The price differences I see don't support that. With the trade in lion bones, it absolutely makes sense that CBL have taken pressure off the wild lions. Why go through the expense & risk of poaching wild when you can buy legally? That will change when the legal market gets shut down.

What might be getting missed in this, another CBL vs wild discussion, is that a ban such as this hurts every hunter, in every country, hunting any animal, using any method. Those that want hunting banned in the world will use this as a means to raise money and go after the next rung. They have a stated goal-ban it all.
"The hunters supporting this do more damage dividing hunters than the anti’s ever could have, but it’s easier to blame the anti-hunters." It takes both sides arguing to divide us. Figuring out how to support a type/method that you or me don't like is what it takes. If the anti's weren't actively working to shut down hunting, would this thread, or the one about countries banning the import of any trophy, been started? The enemy is the anti-hunters, not hunters that disagree on some aspect of hunting. They are who is to blame, so it is easier to blame them.

It’s a farming practice disguised as a hunting practice to me. Banning it isn’t banning any hunting. Maybe the shoots are conducted more appropriately today, but it only takes one lie to be a liar. The CBL industry did it to themselves. They weren’t innocent marketing ploys. Telling someone a farm raised and released lion is a problem lion from Botswana is simply an outright lie. It took the anti-hunting documentary Blood Lions before the discussion around what it is became more honest because it couldn’t be avoided so easily at that point. The lions are raised as livestock in small areas then released for hunting 7 days prior to shooting simple as that. The discussion around the lion bone trade is still mostly avoided. The discussion around the cub petting industry is avoided completely. What also stands out to me about this discussion is no hunter supporting CBL shooting ever wants to see a CBL farm to see how they are raised. They only want to see and talk about the tracking experience once the lion is released.
There is a large price difference between a wild lion hunt and a CBL shoot however it should be greater. The high value hunts like lion give areas economic value that other animals just don’t have. Without high dollar hunts many of the other hunts in wild areas average persons can afford like buffalo and plains game would slowly disappear because the area wouldn’t generate enough revenue to protect it. Shooting 50 stocked lions on a CBL ranch protects maybe 10,000 acres. Hunting two lions on a concession protects 100,000 acres. Having to complete with $3000 5 day lioness CBL shoots and $8000 male lion CBL shoots ultimately reduces at least some demand for the much more expensive wild hunts that might require a lifetime of saving.
An open discussion on the lion bone trade helping protect wild lions would be nice. It actually does add some conservation value. However, again, as a marketing ploy, this topic was avoided. It’s still unclear what happens with the CBL lion after the hunter shoots it. Telling a hunter his lion bones are going to China doesn’t help sell CBL shoots. The lion farmers don’t need hunters coming to harvest their lions for them to sell the bones to China though.
I’ll be glad when CBL shooting is banned. This argument will be done. Everyone already picked their side.

 

[wesheltonj]

I am uninformed on this topic.
I believe the CCP has great (too great?) leverage in the market (and many other markets).
Can you explain? I read a lot, but am ignorant about this subject.

I know what they have done to the ivory trade, and rhino horn trade in East Africa and South Africa.
Money talks, sometimes way too much.

The lion bones go to China for “medicine,” fortified wine, etc .

We will see what happens. They could just seek them to China and farm them there.

Shining new light on South Africa's lion bone trade

TRAFFIC study says exports have increased dramatically and calls for trade to be closely monitored

wwf.panda.org

 

[BRICKBURN]

This is concerning. Is it correct to understand that this is included in the law that was passed.

Do away with anything that even looks like rearing.

 

[LivingTheDream]

Do away with anything that even looks like rearing.

That could have a devastating impact on Rhinos.

 

[Inline6]

I’ll be glad when CBL shooting is banned. This argument will be done. Everyone already picked their side.

The sad part is, antis do not care. They are not going to stop til they have all hunting band. Why should they? Think about it, what are they giving up? Answer, Absolutely nothing. So you might view this as a win today. If we don't, good chance our children will not have the same opportunities to that we do/did.

Understand you view point 100%, I don't agree with it. I do not hold any animosity about it. You are passionate about the subject. Again nothing wrong with voicing one's beliefs.

The dirty little secret, the otherside no matter what we are talking about. Is good at dividing, they will win because they have one message.

 

[375Fox]

The sad part is, antis do not care. They are not going to stop til they have all hunting band. Why should they? Think about it, what are they giving up? Answer, Absolutely nothing. So you might view this as a win today. If we don't, good chance our children will not have the same opportunities to that we do/did.

Understand you view point 100%, I don't agree with it. I do not hold any animosity about it. You are passionate about the subject. Again nothing wrong with voicing one's beliefs.

The dirty little secret, the otherside no matter what we are talking about. Is good at dividing, they will win because they have one message.

Everyone talks about the antis. We should be concerned with non-Hunters who haven’t formed an opinion. There are many more non-hunters than there are hunters or anti-hunters. I view CBL as completely indefensible. It has done and has the potential to turn non-hunters into anti-hunters.

 

[One Day...]

Another tale of how a few rotten apples spoil the entire barrel...

So...................

Aside from Vaal Rhebok, Klipspringer, and a few Eastern Cape Kudu that live wild and reproduce naturally on the high ridges and plateaus of the Karoo; a few Bushbuck that survive on the edge of "green gold" alfalfa fields in a few riparian areas; a few ubiquitous Springbok and Impala straggling amongst sheep farms; and a few other small species here or there, VIRTUALLY EVERY ANIMAL HUNTED / SHOT in South Africa is captive bred in either straightforward breeding farms or game/shooting farms.

I propose that our most passionate anti CBL (Captive Bred Lion) advocates immediately start the campaign against CBB (Captive Bred Buffalo), CBS (Captive Bred Sable), CBR (Captive Bred Roan), CBW (Captive Bred Wildebeest), CBH (Captive Bred Hartebeest), CBG (Captive Bred Gemsbok), CBE (Captive Bred Eland), CBL (Captive Bred Lechwe), CBK (Captive Bred Kudu), heck! CBA (Captive Bred Anything).

And since we are at it, let us also all advocate for the EWC (expropriation without compensation) of all these breeding farms and game farms in RSA. Lord knows, anyone knows how useless hunting is to the local folks' income, and how all this land can be so better used for community farming.

What? Wait? CBL (Captive Bred Lion) is not the same thing as CBA (Captive Bred Anything)? Because Lions are different? Seriously? Ah, it is emotional! Well, if it is emotional, I guess that it changes everything... Right?

And ranch hunting is the backbone of RSA tourism industry, and provides the only possible living to entire rural populations? Well too bad, they better move to Soweto, because the first domino just fell...

Boy! Another Gin & Tonic for the Bwana! Pese, pese! (hurry, hurry!) because quick there will not be any Bwana left...

Come to think of it, since a few drug dealers in the USA behave with guns as badly as a few lion breeders in RSA, since the solution appears to be to outlaw lion breeding, maybe we should think about outlawing guns in America? Anyone on board?





Alright, alright, unleash the furry of indignation and maybe ask BRICKBURN to ban me from the site. After all, many / most will see me as sacrilegious for bringing rational thinking to an emotional situation...

 

[375Fox]

Another tale of how a few rotten apples spoil the entire barrel...

So...................

Aside from Vaal Rhebok, Klipspringers, and a few Eastern Cape Kudus that live wild and reproduce naturally on the high ridges and plateaus of the Karoo; a few Waterbuck that survive on the edge of "green gold" alfalfa fields in a few riparian areas; and a few ubiquitous springbok and impala straggling amongst sheep farms, VIRTUALLY EVERY ANIMAL HUNTED / SHOT in South Africa is captive bred in either straightforward breeding farms or game farms.

I propose that our most passionate anti CBL advocates immediately start the campaign against CBB (Captive Bred Buffalo), CBS (Captive Bred Sable), CBR (Captive Bred Roan), CBW (Captive Bred Wildebeest), CBH (Captive Bred Hartebeest), CBG (Captive Bred Gemsbok), CBE (Captive Bred Eland), CBL (Captive Bred Lechwe), CBK (Captive Bred Kudu), CBA (Captive Bred Anything).

And since we are at it, let us also all advocate for the EWC (expropriation without compensation) of all these breeding farms and game farms in RSA. Lord knows, examples abound how destructive hunting is to the local folks' income, and how all this hunting land can be so better used for community farming.

What? Wait? CBL (Captive Bred Lion) is not the same thing as CBA (Captive Bred Anything)? Why? Because Lions are different? Seriously? Ah, it is emotional! Well, if it is emotional, I guess that it changes everything! Right?

And ranch hunting is the backbone of RSA tourism industry, and provides the only possible living to entire local populations? Well too bad, because the first domino just fell...

Boy! Another Gin & Tonic for the Bwana! Pese, pese! (Hurry, hurry!) because quick there will not be any Bwana left...

Come to think of it, since a few drug dealers in the USA behave with guns as badly as a few lion breeders in RSA, since the solution appears to be to outlaw lion breeding, maybe we should think about outlawing guns in America? Anyone on board?





Alright, alright, unleash the furry of indignation and maybe ask BRICKBURN to ban me from the site. After all, many / most will see me as sacrilegious for bringing rational thinking to an emotional situation...

You’ve made this argument before. Most arguments on this thread have been made before as well. I don’t agree with the commercial breeding of sable, Buffalo, etc. However, at least some of these animals will go towards creating self sustaining populations on game farms. No captive bred lion will be used to create self sustaining populations free range or behind a game fence. They are raised as livestock in small enclosures (400 m2 per SAPA) then released into the hunting area a short time prior to being shot. It’s a supply and demand farming model.

 

[Inline6]

Everyone talks about the antis. We should be concerned with non-Hunters who haven’t formed an opinion. There are many more non-hunters than there are hunters or anti-hunters. I view CBL as completely indefensible. It has done and has the potential to turn non-hunters into anti-hunters. Posts like the one above “a little bit anti hunting, a little bit anti gun” are some of the more foolish things I’ve read on this argument. Very short sighted view.

That can be said about many types of hunting.

I'm not trying to change your stance, I'm not insane.

I do agree, we have to get new people into hunting and shooting. My youngest son (11) has friends that have never shot a gun much less hunted. We usually feel the parents out. If they are willing we will take them to the range to shoot. If they do well and express intrest in hunting. We take them hunting on our place and they usually take a doe. We give the meat to the family and it is a good experience (100% positive at this point). That's not going to change the world, it is something. If we all do a little something, it should turn into a big positive.

 

[Hunt anything]

@One Day... talk about stirring the pot! But I would say that there are a few more species running around not bound by fences.

 

[One Day...]

You’ve made this argument before. Most arguments on this thread have been made before as well. I don’t agree with the commercial breeding of sable, Buffalo, etc. However, at least some of these animals will go towards creating self sustaining populations on game farms. No captive bred lion will be used to create self sustaining populations free range or behind a game fence. They are raised as livestock in small enclosures (400 m2 per SAPA) then released into the hunting area a short time prior to being shot. It’s a supply and demand farming model.

And you too have made the same points again and again, and this is fine

Actually the only reason I posted in this thread is to counterbalance your heavy one-sided participation

Whether they be Orthodox, Jew, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, or whatever, in the long run intransigent and dogmatic "High Priests" tend to be more damaging to their own religion than anyone else. I respect you and generally appreciate your posts, but your intransigence on this specific topic may not be as constructive to the general African hunting cause as you think.

I will not change your mind, and do not intend or even wish to, multiple views always enrich a debate, but CBL is a bit the tree that hides the forest, I am afraid, or the proverbial mine canary bird.

And I duly acknowledge, and agree, that some bad CBL actors have inflicted considerable damage, some of it possibly irreversible, to the African hunting cause, so this is not an easy issue...

 

[375Fox]

And you too have made the same points again and again, and this is fine Actually the only reason I posted in this thread is to counterbalance your heavy one-sided participation.

Whether they be Orthodox, Jew, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, or whatever, in the long run intransigent "High Priests" tend to be more damaging to their own religion than anyone else. I respect you and generally appreciate your posts, but your intransigence on this specific topic may not be as constructive to the general hunting issue as you think.

I will not change your mind, and do not intend or even wish to, multiple views always enrich a debate, but CBL is a bit the tree that hides the forest I am afraid, or the proverbial mine canary bird.

If CBL is the canary in the mine I think we already lost. I do not think that the case though. It is really disheartening to me though to see how much support this practice has on AH.