CBL Debate Over, CBL Loses

[375Fox]

Rhino - cattle same difference.

Rhino make up 1 of the Dangerous 7. There is the incentive to hunt, raise, breed rhino. I don't remember which is which, I keep forgetting, Rhinos are also on the endangered species and watch(?) list, but huntable. There is or was at least 1 rhino darting outfitter in RSA(?). "In time" "once rhino herds become sustainable", 'commercial export and use', is mentioned in this whatever it is that will be taking effect.

Poachers have no ethics or morals and certainly don't worry about legalities on exporting rhino horns or other rhino parts to China.

Really there is a big difference. Cattle usually make money and can be sold in 2 years. Rhino are a liability from day 1 because they are such a target for poaching and take a long time to reach maturity. The hunts just help recover some of the loss. More of a passion project for the owner than an investment. If there was a legal horn trade then they’d be an investment like cattle. Slippery slope again with mixing farming and hunting, but as bad as a state as rhino populations are I think it would be the best case option. Unfortunately, it will never be legalized.

 

[degoins]

This should make all the anti-hunters happy.

Only slightly. They won't be happy until all hunting is banned and, being leftists, they will still be the same miserable bastards they always are.

 

[HankBuck]

This was announced previously. Last time seemed more like a marketing stunt for the CBL industry. I hope it actually gets banned this time. I think this is currently the most damaging practice in existence to the image of hunting especially when mixed with the lion bone trade to China and cub petting for tourists.

375Fox: I have No opinion on CBL but I do have an opinion on “the image of Hunting” and I do Not believe banning “anything” will ever improve the image of Hunting…because those with a Negative view of hunting rarely base that view on Facts. It is never an “image” based on facts - it’s All emotion and marketing and as soon as one type of hunting is “banned” the image of hunting will Not be any better. The “target” will just be moved to something else and if anything, anti hunting groups will be “encouraged” by their success and raise funding for more and more anti hunting campaigns. Whatever the reasons for continuing or discontinuing CBL hunts - Hunting’s “image” should Not be a consideration….that’s my “emotional” opinion.

 

[HankBuck]

None of the books recognize any animals shot inside a high fence. Should those hunts be banned?
To be clear, I differentiate between a canned hunt and a CBL hunt on a large enough property. What's large enough seems to be one of the questions that varies between individuals.

I understand the history of CBL. The misinformation of them being problem lions as a marketing ploy is what it is, a marketing ploy. The real problem was created when those with lions to be sold found people who were willing to shoot one in a pen through a fence; the definition of a canned hunt. An abominable practice I think everyone on this forum agrees on. The CBL hunts that I've looked at and read reports about, aren't canned hunts. I know others disagree about this; but that is the point I was making. If you or others don't see the distinction between a canned execution vs a CBL hunt on a property large enough to have to hunt, then don't participate in the CBL hunt. But it hurts the wild lion hunter as well when the CBL hunt gets banned; the anti's will be shooting for those hunts to end next.
I don't see that CBL hunts have devalued the wild lion hunts. The price differences I see don't support that. With the trade in lion bones, it absolutely makes sense that CBL have taken pressure off the wild lions. Why go through the expense & risk of poaching wild when you can buy legally? That will change when the legal market gets shut down.

What might be getting missed in this, another CBL vs wild discussion, is that a ban such as this hurts every hunter, in every country, hunting any animal, using any method. Those that want hunting banned in the world will use this as a means to raise money and go after the next rung. They have a stated goal-ban it all.
"The hunters supporting this do more damage dividing hunters than the anti’s ever could have, but it’s easier to blame the anti-hunters." It takes both sides arguing to divide us. Figuring out how to support a type/method that you or I don't like is what it takes. If the anti's weren't actively working to shut down hunting, would this thread, or the one about countries banning the import of any trophy, been started? The enemy is the anti-hunters, not hunters that disagree on some aspect of hunting. They are who is to blame, so it is easier to blame them.

WOODCARVER: your first paragraph (above) “none of the books recognize any animals shot inside High Fence”??? Doesn’t SCI accept any animal shot in High Fence under the term “Estate Hunts”? Maybe they exclude Lions

 

[375Fox]

375Fox: I have No opinion on CBL but I do have an opinion on “the image of Hunting” and I do Not believe banning “anything” will ever improve the image of Hunting…because those with a Negative view of hunting rarely base that view on Facts. It is never an “image” based on facts - it’s All emotion and marketing and as soon as one type of hunting is “banned” the image of hunting will Not be any better. The “target” will just be moved to something else and if anything, anti hunting groups will be “encouraged” by their success and raise funding for more and more anti hunting campaigns. Whatever the reasons for continuing or discontinuing CBL hunts - Hunting’s “image” should Not be a consideration….that’s my “emotional” opinion.

I am repeating myself multiple times at this point, but I’ll say it again. There is too much talk here about anti-hunters. Non-hunters are going be the majority who decide. Raising lions as livestock, and releasing them for 7 days before a hunt cannot be defended as conservation to anyone. The facts are very accessible and actually written into SAPA Norms and standards. There are enough hunters who are against this practice as well. CBL is not hunting. It’s a farming practice with a unique harvesting method.

 

[Ridge Runner]

[

Really there is a big difference. Cattle usually make money and can be sold in 2 years. Rhino are a liability from day 1 because they are such a target for poaching and take a long time to reach maturity. The hunts just help recover some of the loss. More of a passion project for the owner than an investment. If there was a legal horn trade then they’d be an investment like cattle. Slippery slope again with mixing farming and hunting, but as bad as a state as rhino populations are I think it would be the best case option. Unfortunately, it will never be legalized.

Yes. And I did over simplify the matter. I do understand rhino ranching is definitely not a get rich endeavor. In fact it is probably the most expensive livestock to get started in. Rhino ranching is definitely a long term process with no future guarantees of reward over risk after a couple of decades building up a sustainable marketable herd.

I should also have defined what I considered to be a marketable herd:

For hunting purposes with an annual number between 250-500 accumulative permitted to be hunted equates to roughly 2 to 5 rhino ranches with sustainable herd of 800 to 500 respectfully head of rhinos per ranch.

As an export commodity 10,000+ accumulative animals annually. This means more than just 3 or 4 rhino ranchers. Roughly 40+ ranchers with sustainable herds in the 1500+ head of rhinos per ranch.

With proper regulations and oversight these "Wild Management Rhinos" would allow the truely wild rhino populations to be less threatened by poachers.

Never say never, because it could happen, just not in our lifetimes.

 

[Woodcarver]

WOODCARVER: your first paragraph (above) “none of the books recognize any animals shot inside High Fence”??? Doesn’t SCI accept any animal shot in High Fence under the term “Estate Hunts”? Maybe they exclude Lions

Believe you are correct. I also think that recent change has been highly controversial as well. The backlash when they initially announced they were going to accept CBD (see what I did there? ) animals into the books, forced the new category, IIRC. Don't know how they deal with lions.

The whole concept of trophy books is another source for major arguments amongst hunters, and also gives the anti's a lot of fodder for their propaganda mills. It is where the term "trophy hunting" came from. Should the practice of registering the apex animals of a species be ended? Would that appease the anti-hunters and make them go away? (These are rhetorical questions, for those that need that clarification. Don't need to derail this thread).

 

[Vintageguy]

I saw a comment that it’s less about the antis than it is about the general non hunting public as they will decide by voting. Ok, problem is the antis are winning the battle in shaping the opinions of that non hunting public. The proof is how they have successfully placed on equal footing the labels of poacher and trophy hunter. Hell, they’ve done such a good job that they have hunters themselves using the label “trophy hunter” in a derogatory way as is too often evident here.
Sorry, but I’m tired of this mentality in the west that “everything I don’t like should be banned and outlawed just because I find it offensive”. This has that smell to me.
I also admit to having a farmers view when it comes to raising animals for profit and product. By the way, that applies to wild game also that is managed and harvested by quota with an eye to profit. No profit, no product, no consumer. Three legged stool, remove any one of those and you have none.

 

[steve white]

I expect opinions of hunters to differ at times. I get confused when the opinions of the wildlife professionals are divided. For example: concerning trophy hunting wild lion, some say, WHEN THEY ARE THE HEAD OF A PRIDE INVOLVING JUVENILE MALES, killing the alpha IS DISRUPTIVE TO THE PRIDE STRUCTURE. A new alpha male comes in, kills some of the offspring of the alpha that got shot, etc. etc. Net result, fewer lion numbers. Sure, it still works out if you have such high numbers of wild lion that pride reorganization is survivable--but do we still have those numbers? Honestly, or are numbers declining like water swirling around a drain?
At least CBL doesn't involve killing the head of a pride. arguments go round and round, and there are actual pros as well as cons for either practice. Hard to take the high ground with others... JMHO

 

[Paul Raley]

Any so called "hunting" that involves the breeding of wild animals in circumstances where they are unable to breed and behave as if they were in the wild to me is unacceptable . Animals that are bred in small cages such as the case with predators or small camps such as with buck/buffalo/antelope where they are fed and watered by humans daily is problematic as these animals are totally reliant on regular human interaction to survive and are then habituated to humans , and their natural fear and behaviours towards humans changes . Many if not most of the animals that are subject to this type of treatment are the big money earners such as Lions , Buffalo , Sable , Roan , Rhino , colour variants , etc , and in many cases they are so interbred and genetically manipulated that their value for conservation is little to nothing ( Rhino might be the exception ) I am basing my opinions on what I have read from experts and my own common sense , so obviously I could be wrong about some aspects , but the fact is , shooting habituated wild animals that are mass bred in cages , or used for put and shoot is in my opinion not morally or ethically correct . Many animals are hunted on high fence farms / ranches in what I consider to be mostly natural circumstances where the size of the properties allow the animals to breed and act naturally , with very little or no human interaction or help , to me this is acceptable . Many of you may not agree with me but that is your right , just as it is my right to have my opinion on what I consider to be morally correct and ethical hunting . To me the practices of CBL / canned wild animal hunting and the likes are a threat to the hunting fraternity . The fact is also wild animals are not domestic animals and should not be treated as such . For me it is simple .

 

[mark-hunter]

Non-hunters are going be the majority who decide

This is unfortunate truth.

 

[Dewald]

Game ranchers do not have them roaming around other game, and there are no free-range lions roaming around in South Africa.

Good riddance.

That is not true. The lions in Kruger, Makuleka, Hluhluwe Imfolozi, madikwe etc are free range.

If you considder the lion in BVC in Zim Free Range, how on earth can Kruger and APNR lions not be?

 

[Inline6]

Any so called "hunting" that involves the breeding of wild animals in circumstances where they are unable to breed and behave as if they were in the wild to me is unacceptable . Animals that are bred in small cages such as the case with predators or small camps such as with buck/buffalo/antelope where they are fed and watered by humans daily is problematic as these animals are totally reliant on regular human interaction to survive and are then habituated to humans , and their natural fear and behaviours towards humans changes . Many if not most of the animals that are subject to this type of treatment are the big money earners such as Lions , Buffalo , Sable , Roan , Rhino , colour variants , etc , and in many cases they are so interbred and genetically manipulated that their value for conservation is little to nothing ( Rhino might be the exception ) I am basing my opinions on what I have read from experts and my own common sense , so obviously I could be wrong about some aspects , but the fact is , shooting habituated wild animals that are mass bred in cages , or used for put and shoot is in my opinion not morally or ethically correct . Many animals are hunted on high fence farms / ranches in what I consider to be mostly natural circumstances where the size of the properties allow the animals to breed and act naturally , with very little or no human interaction or help , to me this is acceptable . Many of you may not agree with me but that is your right , just as it is my right to have my opinion on what I consider to be morally correct and ethical hunting . To me the practices of CBL / canned wild animal hunting and the likes are a threat to the hunting fraternity . The fact is also wild animals are not domestic animals and should not be treated as such . For me it is simple .

So....you don't eat fast food? You don't buy your meat at the grocery store?

Sorry to break the news, any hunting is seen as a threat to antis. It's like gun control, they will not be happy until guns are completely outlawed.

As far as experts go, are these the same experts on global warming? Careful what you believe, experts have agendas too.

 

[mark-hunter]

South Africa manages something between 8-12.000 captive bread lions.
So, what will happen to these animals when ban comes into force?
Animals to be euthanatized?
(Antis should be made aware of this detail)

 

[Paul Raley]

South Africa manages something between 8-12.000 captive bread lions.
So, what will happen to these animals when ban comes into force?
Animals to be euthanatized?
(Antis should be made aware of this detail)

Most of these lions are being bred to be killed anyway , the end result for the lions is the same.

 

[mark-hunter]

Most of these lions are being bred to be killed anyway , the end result for the lions is the same.

O, yes. we know that.
I am just wondering if antis are aware, that result will be slaughter of 8-12.000 animals they want to protect.

Just to get idea about the numbers: as per IUCN red list of species, at this moment on African continent there is 23.000 lions in the wild, status vulnerable.
So, they are about to slaughter about one third to one half of that number.

If somebody made public campaign under motto "lets slaughter 12.000 lions" this would never pass.

So, they made campaign to ban questionable practices, without solutions what to do with existing animals in captivity.

 

[HankBuck]

Believe you are correct. I also think that recent change has been highly controversial as well. The backlash when they initially announced they were going to accept CBD (see what I did there? ) animals into the books, forced the new category, IIRC. Don't know how they deal with lions.

The whole concept of trophy books is another source for major arguments amongst hunters, and also gives the anti's a lot of fodder for their propaganda mills. It is where the term "trophy hunting" came from. Should the practice of registering the apex animals of a species be ended? Would that appease the anti-hunters and make them go away? (These are rhetorical questions, for those that need that clarification. Don't need to derail this thread).

WOODCARVER, I don’t believe anything “derails Anti Hunters” and to try and “appease anti Hunters” is always a mistake - that gives them Power and incentivizes them to make more & more demands on the Hunting community. You can’t deal with Zealots & Terrorists thru appeasement. Most Hunters conduct themselves just fine and follow the Law — that is all thats required.

 

[Doubleplay]

I see a lot of comments here about anti hunters but there is also another and major group of people who are neutral about hunting or don’t care much.
Those are the people who will decide the future of hunting and we should not give the anti hunters tools to convince them.
For that and being someone who have seen where they were bred and how the CBL hunts are staged, I'm glad this terrible put and take practice is being banned.
We should not defend practices which are ethically wrong in the name of defending hunting because in the long run it can hurt us more.

 

[Flewis]

As the song says. If you won’t stand nothing you’ll fall for anything.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

CBL: Yes or No?

Recent threads have peaked my curiosity on the opinions of AH members on this topic so I’m starting this simple poll. I believe I have it set up to ensure the anonymity of voters and I will request that the mods lock the thread and delete any and all comments that may occur until it is locked...

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