Cutting Edge Bullets For Large Dangerous Game

[ALbowhunter]

I was able to get the 400gr CEB solids to hit with 400gr A-frames with a little adjustment on powder charge out of my 416 Rigby. I never hunted with the 416 before I sold it. I have used the A-frame/ CEB solid combo out of several different calibers (378 weatherby, 416 Rigby, 404 Jeffery). With the exception of the 378 Weatherby, they required a little change in powder charge to hit with the A-frames. The CEB solids tend to hit higher than the A-frames at common distance that solids would be used. I cannot remember how much I had to adjust for the 416, but it was not much. For instance when loading for the 404, I decreased the load by .3 grains of powder to get same point of impact as the A-frames at 75yds. For any of the calibers I mentioned, there is no doubt in their results on game. They absolutely work. In all the hunts and animals taken by my family, we have only ever recovered one. All the rest provided complete straight line penetration.

 

[TOBY458]

I was able to get the 400gr CEB solids to hit with 400gr A-frames with a little adjustment on powder charge out of my 416 Rigby. I never hunted with the 416 before I sold it. I have used the A-frame/ CEB solid combo out of several different calibers (378 weatherby, 416 Rigby, 404 Jeffery). With the exception of the 378 Weatherby, they required a little change in powder charge to hit with the A-frames. The CEB solids tend to hit higher than the A-frames at common distance that solids would be used. I cannot remember how much I had to adjust for the 416, but it was not much. For instance when loading for the 404, I decreased the load by .3 grains of powder to get same point of impact as the A-frames at 75yds. For any of the calibers I mentioned, there is no doubt in their results on game. They absolutely work. In all the hunts and animals taken by my family, we have only ever recovered one. All the rest provided complete straight line penetration.

Thanks for the info! I'm looking forward to experimenting with these soon.

 

[norfolk shooter]

Im going to get this one going again!! Does the brass shank thats left ever pass through like a solid would??
Im thinking about the raptors potentially for my 505 Gibbs. I too need to get my head around using a lighter bullet. I can get my hands on 600grn soft in the UK!!

 

[TOBY458]

Im going to get this one going again!! Does the brass shank thats left ever pass through like a solid would??
Im thinking about the raptors potentially for my 505 Gibbs. I too need to get my head around using a lighter bullet. I can get my hands on 600grn soft in the UK!!

@michael458 ?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Im going to get this one going again!! Does the brass shank thats left ever pass through like a solid would??
Im thinking about the raptors potentially for my 505 Gibbs. I too need to get my head around using a lighter bullet. I can get my hands on 600grn soft in the UK!!

Yes they do, but not quite like the true solids they make.

 

[Lance Hopper]

I loaded for a buddies 450 nitro last year that he shot 3 buffalo in Mozambique with. He has a shoulder injury that won’t allow him to run full strength loads. So, I developed a load using 295gr. Raptors and 325gr. Safari solids that ran the standard 2150ish fps. I think he only used one of the solids, and the only bullet recovered was a raptor from a frontal shot that went to one of the hind quarters. His PH was overly impressed with the results. I don’t think my buddy told the PH how light the bullets were until after the second buffalo.

 

[Daisy]

I loaded for a buddies 450 nitro last year that he shot 3 buffalo in Mozambique with. He has a shoulder injury that won’t allow him to run full strength loads. So, I developed a load using 295gr. Raptors and 325gr. Safari solids that ran the standard 2150ish fps. I think he only used one of the solids, and the only bullet recovered was a raptor from a frontal shot that went to one of the hind quarters. His PH was overly impressed with the results. I don’t think my buddy told the PH how light the bullets were until after the second buffalo.

Help me understand something.

I would guess more buffalo have been taken with a 375 h&h than any other load throughout history. That means the most common load to ever bring down a buffalo has been 300gr.

Why would the PH have one seconds pause about a 295gr and 325gr bullet being used?

Seems like a lot of old tropisms rule the day in the large game hunting world. And most of those were formed 75 years ago in a different era of ammo development.

A 300gr modern monometal expanding bullet at any reasonable velocity seems perfect for the situation.

Anyways. Just my thoughts. Carry on.

 

[Aaron N]

Help me understand something.

I would guess more buffalo have been taken with a 375 h&h than any other load throughout history. That means the most common load to ever bring down a buffalo has been 300gr.

Why would the PH have one seconds pause about a 295gr and 325gr bullet being used?

Seems like a lot of old tropisms rule the day in the large game hunting world. And most of those were formed 75 years ago in a different era of ammo development.

A 300gr modern monometal expanding bullet at any reasonable velocity seems perfect for the situation.

Anyways. Just my thoughts. Carry on.

I think it a concern about SD and it’s relation to penetration than the actual weight of the bullet.

 

[Aaron N]

But with that being said, yes the shank is supposed to pass through much like a solid once the blades have broken away creating trauma of their own.

 

[Daisy]

I use a lot of CEB bullets. Love how they work.

So the I’ve read a lot here about using heavier for caliber bullets here in DG. Thought seems to be that the cross sectional increase causes a larger wound channel. That seems simplistic to me and based on very old data.

A bullet causes lots of the damage from the pressure change and shockwave as it goes through the tissue. A bullet moving faster causes more of this damage. A lighter than caliber bullet moving faster can cause more damage than a larger than caliber moving slower. The physics also show that a smaller than caliber at higher speeds delivers more energy to the target than the opposite.

This doesn’t even take into account the separating petals spreading damage into the tissue from 2-15”.

I know the op juiced down the load for his buddies shoulder so not fully applicable to this case.

I also guess people like us debated this when a frames came about and it was blasphemy not to use a solid on a buffalo. It seems like this debate has finally resolved after 30 years or so! Ha. Monometals with unique Expansion with continued shank penetration will probably be an accepted method in 30 more years!

 

[michael458]

Im going to get this one going again!! Does the brass shank thats left ever pass through like a solid would??
Im thinking about the raptors potentially for my 505 Gibbs. I too need to get my head around using a lighter bullet. I can get my hands on 600grn soft in the UK!!

Yes, the vast majority of the time, depending on caliber, velocity and shot angle, heavy bone and other such factors. Once the "Blades" shear at 1.5-2 inches of terminal penetration, the solid shank becomes a broken beer bottle sharp edged full caliber solid, which vastly out penetrates all other trauma inflicting type bullets. They are Blades and not petals, petals peel and shear, most of the time staying close to the center wound channel. The blades on Raptors shear, and slice and dice their way through animal tissue, radiating outward away from center bullet after about 4-5 inches of penetration, during that first part of terminal penetration those blades are slicing and dicing the tissue around the center bullet path, massive destruction of tissue at that point, then once they radiate away from center they are slicing and dicing on their own. This is a wicked, and massively destructive bullet, the most I have ever seen. There is always tremendous blood loss because of how the blades work with the center bullet. Typical penetration of larger bore Raptor bases is around 4 feet and sometimes better depending on bone contact.

Witness cards placed 4 inches inside test medium............

Cow Buffalo heart with 420 Raptor shown above recovered other side of stomach......

and the only bullet recovered was a raptor from a frontal shot that went to one of the hind quarters.

Most of the Raptors I have found in buffalo are frontal or point of the shoulder shots only.

 

[norfolk shooter]

Yes, the vast majority of the time, depending on caliber, velocity and shot angle, heavy bone and other such factors. Once the "Blades" shear at 1.5-2 inches of terminal penetration, the solid shank becomes a broken beer bottle sharp edged full caliber solid, which vastly out penetrates all other trauma inflicting type bullets. They are Blades and not petals, petals peel and shear, most of the time staying close to the center wound channel. The blades on Raptors shear, and slice and dice their way through animal tissue, radiating outward away from center bullet after about 4-5 inches of penetration, during that first part of terminal penetration those blades are slicing and dicing the tissue around the center bullet path, massive destruction of tissue at that point, then once they radiate away from center they are slicing and dicing on their own. This is a wicked, and massively destructive bullet, the most I have ever seen. There is always tremendous blood loss because of how the blades work with the center bullet. Typical penetration of larger bore Raptor bases is around 4 feet and sometimes better depending on bone contact.

Witness cards placed 4 inches inside test medium............

Cow Buffalo heart with 420 Raptor shown above recovered other side of stomach......

Most of the Raptors I have found in buffalo are frontal or point of the shoulder shots only.

In other words this bullet fucks shit up!! My concern would be taking a shot on a buff when its in a herd and getting a pass through thats why I asked

 

[SRvet]

Im going to get this one going again!! Does the brass shank thats left ever pass through like a solid would??
Im thinking about the raptors potentially for my 505 Gibbs. I too need to get my head around using a lighter bullet. I can get my hands on 600grn soft in the UK!!

Can’t be many 505s in the UK!! Which rifle have you got?

 

[michael458]

In other words this bullet fucks shit up!!

Yep........ that is a fact.

My concern would be taking a shot on a buff when its in a herd and getting a pass through thats why I asked

So, you trust a 500 Swift A Frame at 2250-2300 fps in 458 Lott, or other similar bullet, shooting a herd buffalo with cow or other bulls behind the shot? Perhaps trusting some of the older Noslers that the nose breaks off and the base continues to penetrate? Even back in ancient times, when I was still shooting premium expanding conventional softs, I never trusted that thought, I always waited until the shot was clear. Yeah, you might miss an opportunity, that is why nothing is guaranteed, you wait until the next opportunity comes, who knows, it might even be a bigger one? I personally like EXITS...... two holes are better than one in my opinion. Just be patient.

I used to hear the same concerns about the Flat Nose Solids....... First they were not needed, the old round nose had worked (most of the time, some of the time) for the last 100 years, or some such drivel. Round nose was good enough. Flat nose really didn't work that good. Flat Nose won't feed in most guns. And when all those concerns become moot, when all those concerns were proven not so, then the common thread by the Worshipers at the Altar of Round Nose stated, Flat Nose Solids are TOO GOOD, they penetrate too deep, they exit, endangering animals in the herd and so forth and blah blah blah blah..........

Then recently you just don't need solids anymore, the premium conventionals are just so good you get plenty of penetration, even rear shots on buffalo and blah blah blah........... Well, if the premium expanding bullets are so good they will reach buffalo vitals from the rear to the front, but yet they should be trusted not to exit broadside buffalo in a herd scenario? Hmmmm.......... ?

@norfolk shooter no offense towards you mind you. Its just some comments made by many that should be considered and a little more thought put into it. 505 Gibbs, while I have never fired one or even been around one, I think I have enough experience to tell you that the CEB 485 Raptor and its matching 525 Solid will terminally out perform any other .505 caliber bullets you can purchase. That 525 Solid will traverse an elephant from end to end. I know this, because both 500 gr and 525 CEB Solids in .500 caliber will do so. The 485 Raptor would be devastating on buffalo, I know this because I have used 410 gr and 450 gr .500 caliber extensively on buffalo. You won't come short on penetration, that is for sure, and yes broadsides will exit, so watch what is on the other side. One thing guaranteed, you put the Raptor where it is supposed to be, you won't have a long tracking job, it will make short work for you..........I have also seen a number of buffalo hit with 475 Raptors in .510 caliber, all broadsides exit, and sometimes that buffalo just stands a quivers from the trauma inflicted.

My Accountant, and friend just returned from Zimbabwe where he embarked on a buffalo and hippo adventure. His rifle Winchester M70 458 Lott, African Edition #18 (Custom Shop Made 50 of these guns) (I have #13, and at one time I also had #50), I loaded 420 Raptors and 450 Solids CEB for his trip. This is his 2cd buffalo, his first was with 458 B&M and the same bullets. In the 458 Lott I ran both at 2375 fps, not top end, but easy to handle for him, and more than enough. He hit the buff broadside with 420 Raptor, yes, exited, went 10 steps, stood and quivered, then he hit with two solids to finish the dance. He probably didn't need the solids, but I have worked with him and told him never stop shooting until the problem is 100% solved and shoot one more time, or you don't have a shot, or you are out of ammo......... and anyway, why bring all that ammo home............

 

[norfolk shooter]

Yep........ that is a fact.


So, you trust a 500 Swift A Frame at 2250-2300 fps in 458 Lott, or other similar bullet, shooting a herd buffalo with cow or other bulls behind the shot? Perhaps trusting some of the older Noslers that the nose breaks off and the base continues to penetrate? Even back in ancient times, when I was still shooting premium expanding conventional softs, I never trusted that thought, I always waited until the shot was clear. Yeah, you might miss an opportunity, that is why nothing is guaranteed, you wait until the next opportunity comes, who knows, it might even be a bigger one? I personally like EXITS...... two holes are better than one in my opinion. Just be patient.

I used to hear the same concerns about the Flat Nose Solids....... First they were not needed, the old round nose had worked (most of the time, some of the time) for the last 100 years, or some such drivel. Round nose was good enough. Flat nose really didn't work that good. Flat Nose won't feed in most guns. And when all those concerns become moot, when all those concerns were proven not so, then the common thread by the Worshipers at the Altar of Round Nose stated, Flat Nose Solids are TOO GOOD, they penetrate too deep, they exit, endangering animals in the herd and so forth and blah blah blah blah..........

Then recently you just don't need solids anymore, the premium conventionals are just so good you get plenty of penetration, even rear shots on buffalo and blah blah blah........... Well, if the premium expanding bullets are so good they will reach buffalo vitals from the rear to the front, but yet they should be trusted not to exit broadside buffalo in a herd scenario? Hmmmm.......... ?

@norfolk shooter no offense towards you mind you. Its just some comments made by many that should be considered and a little more thought put into it. 505 Gibbs, while I have never fired one or even been around one, I think I have enough experience to tell you that the CEB 485 Raptor and its matching 525 Solid will terminally out perform any other .505 caliber bullets you can purchase. That 525 Solid will traverse an elephant from end to end. I know this, because both 500 gr and 525 CEB Solids in .500 caliber will do so. The 485 Raptor would be devastating on buffalo, I know this because I have used 410 gr and 450 gr .500 caliber extensively on buffalo. You won't come short on penetration, that is for sure, and yes broadsides will exit, so watch what is on the other side. One thing guaranteed, you put the Raptor where it is supposed to be, you won't have a long tracking job, it will make short work for you..........I have also seen a number of buffalo hit with 475 Raptors in .510 caliber, all broadsides exit, and sometimes that buffalo just stands a quivers from the trauma inflicted.

My Accountant, and friend just returned from Zimbabwe where he embarked on a buffalo and hippo adventure. His rifle Winchester M70 458 Lott, African Edition #18 (Custom Shop Made 50 of these guns) (I have #13, and at one time I also had #50), I loaded 420 Raptors and 450 Solids CEB for his trip. This is his 2cd buffalo, his first was with 458 B&M and the same bullets. In the 458 Lott I ran both at 2375 fps, not top end, but easy to handle for him, and more than enough. He hit the buff broadside with 420 Raptor, yes, exited, went 10 steps, stood and quivered, then he hit with two solids to finish the dance. He probably didn't need the solids, but I have worked with him and told him never stop shooting until the problem is 100% solved and shoot one more time, or you don't have a shot, or you are out of ammo......... and anyway, why bring all that ammo home............

Mate I would NEVER use a soft premium or otherwise on a rear running away shot. I see your points made and they are very valid. I think I might just try and get some of the raptors in the UK if I can

 

[norfolk shooter]

Can’t be many 505s in the UK!! Which rifle have you got?

I only know of two of three in use. Might be others but they are cabinet queens.Mine is nothing special shes just a CZ 550. I know Charles Lancaster had a barrelled action they will build up for you