Dangerous Game Hunting and the case for bigger not always being better

[calling4life]

First person on planet earth to think A frames are a bullet prone to failure... I've never even read another comment like that with regard to A frames, let alone met anyone that had issues with them.

 

[Red Leg]

@JG26Irish_2,

It's very difficult to not arrive at the conclusion that a rifle in 375HH isn't the best all around rifle for hunting in Africa at least. Loaded with good 300gr soft points and you're good for PG to at least 200 yards and for buffalo/lion/leopard (although I'd prefer a lighter/faster bullet for the cats). And setup with 300gr solids you're good for elephant and hippo.

However, to compare the .375HH to the larger bore doubles at 200 yards is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. Doubles in my opinion have their place and that place is in close DG hunting. Can they and have they been used for 100 yard and beyond PG? Sure, but that's not their calling IMO.

Now having said all of that, when I head off to Mozambique for a buffalo hunt the summer, my .470NE will be paired with my .375HH. It's hard to think of a better two gun combination for Africa.

My Blaser S2 (double) fitted with its .375 barrels has killed buffalo close and plains game to nearly 250 yards.

And I didn't have to lug around a .470.

 

[WyoBull]

I have not tested this with my 375 H&H as I only load 300 gr Barnes TSX for it.
However, here is my thought. If I were to go to Africa again to hunt both DG and PG during the same hunt and wanted to only take one rifle, my 375 H&H, I would try the following prior to going.
I would load 235 gr Barnes TSX and 300 gr TSX. I would sight my scope in for zero at 100 yards. Then, I would shoot the 300 gr TSX at 50 and 100 yards to see where my bullet hits when sighted in for the 235 gr TSX.
If with the 300 gr the bullet hits within 2 inches of the bullseye at both 50 and 100 yards, I would leave it sighted in for the 235 gr TSX and go hunting.
You could then figure out your bullet drops for the 235 gr since your PG shots would be potentially longer.
I am sure this has been tested, just not by me as my Africa trips have been specific for either DG or PG.
I would not think if sighted in at a 100 yard zero with the 235 gr TSX that the 300 gr TSX would have that much of a difference in where the bullet hits at 50 and 100 yards, which is the furthest you are going to shoot a Cape Buffalo.
Any thought?

 

[Rare Breed]

I am planning a DG Safari and while preparing for this trip I have been absorbing and digesting information about rifle cartridges performance on dangerous game and to be specific for taking Cape Buffalo and certain larger plains animals such as Kudu, Wildebeest and Zebra. Ranges for buff would be 0-100y and for all others 50-350y. Ignoring the very specific needs of the PH to carry a "Stopper" in case a wounded beast charges I am considering which chambering to apply for my hunt. Toward that end can a case be made that bigger is NOT always better? I will offer some comments to start but really want to hear what you experienced hunters think?

• Data presented in this forum by a PH covering over 60 buffalo suggests that the 375 H&H resulted in one-shot-stops about 80% of the time. This included the 9.3mm Mauser and exceeded the results of all other larger calibers.
• If not being applied as a close range DG only rifle the flatter trajectory of the 375 or even the 416 Rigby make them better for longer range shots allowing a better chance of a well placed first shot.
• I do not think anyone would argue that a 500NE would not be a better stopper at 50ft distance and there are inherent advantages of a classic double rifle in making a quick 2nd shot. But I have also seen hunters miss shots out past 50y on buffalo with their doubles. Have also seen them mis-identify the target when hunting with only iron sights resulting in misses or shooting the wrong animal.
• I think most of us would agree that assuming we have chosen a proper DG rifle/cartridge then the importance of a well placed first shot is the most important variable that would determine success.
• The development of cup-point solids has greatly enhanced the penetration of smaller DG rounds such as the 375 which closes the performance gap between it and other larger calibers when applied as a close range stopper.
• The variable of recoil sensitivity is hard to predict. I am not all that recoil sensitive and often bird hunt with a light weight 12ga dbl and love it but also know that after a long day of dove hunting I tend to raise my head anticipating recoil and thus begin to shoot high over my birds. Double rifles or very large caliber bolt guns are extremely valuable and the ammo is quite costly. As a result, few hunters are going to shoot hundreds of rounds thru them. Without that practice it is easy to miss or worse make a poor hit due to anticipation of the significant recoil.
• Often the slower, larger projectiles do not expand with the same authority of the faster options. Comparing a 375 A-Frame or Barnes X in 300g leaving the muzzle at 2550 fps to for example the 458WM running about 2000fps at the muzzle. By the time they hit the animal at say 100y it is not unusual for the expanded diameter of the 375 to be equal or larger than the expanded diameter of the 458. Thus the permanent wound channel may also be larger. These premium bullets like the Swift or Barnes options also improve the terminal effects of the larger calibers but only up to the limits of the velocity they leave the bbl and their ability to expand. If you have seen Swifts bullet display of expansion at slower velocities you know that they do not expand all that much below 1650fps. The big ole 458WM dwindles to that speed at about 200y while the diminutive 375 does not drop below that speed until out past 350y. Based on that data, one could hypothetically expect that at 200y a 375 H&H and a 458WM both loaded with Swift A-frame bullets might expend to very similar diameters at 200y. The larger 458 still has more retained energy at that range but

My original choice was the 416 Rigby since I thought I might not want the recoil from the 458 or larger options. Before I could find a suitable rifle, I came across a nice 375 and bought it, so I have mostly made my choice. I do own a 458 but being limited to bringing only two rifles with me, I am planning to leave the big bore home since it is only really useful (IMO) for the buff and the rainbow trajectory makes using it on longer range plains game a poor choice. I am sure there are many of you who would argue otherwise. I would like to hear your comments.

Bigger is clearly not always better. Everyone on this forum will tell you a 375 will take everything you want even elephant. Are there calibers better suited for elephant…you bet. The single most important thing my PHs want to know is CAN I PUT MY FIRST SHOT in the kill zone period every single time at the average distance for the animal I am hunting If that is a 375, great. If it is a 500 NE, great

 

[Red Leg]

I have not tested this with my 375 H&H as I only load 300 gr Barnes TSX for it.
However, here is my thought. If I were to go to Africa again to hunt both DG and PG during the same hunt and wanted to only take one rifle, my 375 H&H, I would try the following prior to going.
I would load 235 gr Barnes TSX and 300 gr TSX. I would sight my scope in for zero at 100 yards. Then, I would shoot the 300 gr TSX at 50 and 100 yards to see where my bullet hits when sighted in for the 235 gr TSX.
If with the 300 gr the bullet hits within 2 inches of the bullseye at both 50 and 100 yards, I would leave it sighted in for the 235 gr TSX and go hunting.
You could then figure out your bullet drops for the 235 gr since your PG shots would be potentially longer.
I am sure this has been tested, just not by me as my Africa trips have been specific for either DG or PG.
I would not think if sighted in at a 100 yard zero with the 235 gr TSX that the 300 gr TSX would have that much of a difference in where the bullet hits at 50 and 100 yards, which is the furthest you are going to shoot a Cape Buffalo.
Any thought?

I would never use two loads for the same rifle and chambering. I can almost guarantee that Murphy would slip the wrong one in at the wrong time. I certainly would not want to worry about offering him that opportunity. Two or three inches difference in point of impact is a pretty big deal to me - particularly if threading a bullet through a tight shot window.

I have never had to pass on a PG shot in Africa due to range because I had a .375 loaded with a 300 gr bullet in the chamber.

 

[Daisy]

I have not tested this with my 375 H&H as I only load 300 gr Barnes TSX for it.
However, here is my thought. If I were to go to Africa again to hunt both DG and PG during the same hunt and wanted to only take one rifle, my 375 H&H, I would try the following prior to going.
I would load 235 gr Barnes TSX and 300 gr TSX. I would sight my scope in for zero at 100 yards. Then, I would shoot the 300 gr TSX at 50 and 100 yards to see where my bullet hits when sighted in for the 235 gr TSX.
If with the 300 gr the bullet hits within 2 inches of the bullseye at both 50 and 100 yards, I would leave it sighted in for the 235 gr TSX and go hunting.
You could then figure out your bullet drops for the 235 gr since your PG shots would be potentially longer.
I am sure this has been tested, just not by me as my Africa trips have been specific for either DG or PG.
I would not think if sighted in at a 100 yard zero with the 235 gr TSX that the 300 gr TSX would have that much of a difference in where the bullet hits at 50 and 100 yards, which is the furthest you are going to shoot a Cape Buffalo.
Any thought?

I thought same thing. Real world it was too much going on and didn’t let me feel really confident in anything. I even had multiple loads custom loaded. Now one just sits and I exclusively use one load in everything.

 

[375er]

If talking Barnes exclusively the 270 grain has been left out of this discussion. I have gotten great accuracy and with a tough bullet like the TSX you should be covered for planet earth.

 

[WyoBull]

I would never use two loads for the same rifle and chambering. I can almost guarantee that Murphy would slip the wrong one in at the wrong time. I certainly would not want to worry about offering him that opportunity. Two or three inches difference in point of impact is a pretty big deal to me - particularly if threading a bullet through a tight shot window.

I have never had to pass on a PG shot in Africa due to range because I had a .375 loaded with a 300 gr bullet in the chamber.

I agree with your thoughts, Red Leg. In my head I was thinking if I am hunting Cape Buffalo on a given day, plains game would not be on the menu and vice versa. Yes, if hunting both on the same day at the same time then I would. Not want to worry about mixing up rounds.
I may just for the hell of it test out the two loads to see what difference is for point of impact with both bullets.

 

[Tra3]

.375 is a safe and wise choice. I followed the advice from this forum and used a .375 on my 2nd and 3rd safaris. I was very pleased with the results and will continue to use it. I don’t have a need for a bigger caliber. It has worked for Elephant down to Guinea fowl. With good amounts of practice, it is a very manageable caliber.
I am now growing fond of the 9.3x62 too.

 

[375er]

.375 is a safe and wise choice. I followed the advice from this forum and used a .375 on my 2nd and 3rd safaris. I was very pleased with the results and will continue to use it. I don’t have a need for a bigger caliber. It has worked for Elephant down to Guinea fowl. With good amounts of practice, it is a very manageable caliber.
I am now growing fond of the 9.3x62 too.

What bullet grain weight?

 

[375Ruger416]

What bullet grain weight?

For elephant or Guinea fowl?

 

[375er]

For elephant or Guinea fowl?

The answer I am waiting for.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

My Blaser S2 (double) fitted with its .375 barrels has killed buffalo close and plains game to nearly 250 yards.

And I didn't have to lug around a .470.

As I said, there’s not much argument to be made that the 375HH isn’t the most versatile caliber for African hunting.

 

[318AE]

I’ve never seen a well placed 300 gr premium bullet from a 375 H&H fail, on buffalo or anything else. With solids, or a highly controlled expansion bullet, it’s even well suited for the tiny ten. Even at 300 gr, it has more reach than many think. What the 300 gr loses in muzzle velocity, is partly compensates for in retained velocity. I don’t care for the lighter loads. Perhaps body shots on elephants is the only place the 375 comes up short. And how much of hunting in Africa today is that?

If you have a poorly placed shot, with a poorly constructed bullet, a 416, 458, 470 or anything else, isn’t really going to help.

I like the ”exotic” calibers, but it’s for character and nostalgia reasons only, not a practical advantage. Oh, and I can guarantee you nobody leaves a box of 425WR behind in camp, in case the next guy needs it.

 

[Tra3]

What bullet grain weight?

300 gr barnes for Guinea fowl. Head shot. My kids were watching. It was a rare moment of impressing them with my shooting skills. (Sometimes it is better to be lucky than good.)

Ele was a 300 gr. Solid.

 

[375Fox]

I have not tested this with my 375 H&H as I only load 300 gr Barnes TSX for it.
However, here is my thought. If I were to go to Africa again to hunt both DG and PG during the same hunt and wanted to only take one rifle, my 375 H&H, I would try the following prior to going.
I would load 235 gr Barnes TSX and 300 gr TSX. I would sight my scope in for zero at 100 yards. Then, I would shoot the 300 gr TSX at 50 and 100 yards to see where my bullet hits when sighted in for the 235 gr TSX.
If with the 300 gr the bullet hits within 2 inches of the bullseye at both 50 and 100 yards, I would leave it sighted in for the 235 gr TSX and go hunting.
You could then figure out your bullet drops for the 235 gr since your PG shots would be potentially longer.
I am sure this has been tested, just not by me as my Africa trips have been specific for either DG or PG.
I would not think if sighted in at a 100 yard zero with the 235 gr TSX that the 300 gr TSX would have that much of a difference in where the bullet hits at 50 and 100 yards, which is the furthest you are going to shoot a Cape Buffalo.
Any thought?

I haven’t tried a 235 TSX and 300 gr TSX but I have done 250 gr TTSX and 300 gr lead bullets. You might be surprised at the difference in point of impact. I found 5.5-6 inches between them at 100. I brought my 375 as a one rifle hunt for Namibia mainly for PG so I sighted in for 250s but brought 300 gr bullets in case an opportunity for something heavier was presented. I ended up using them on giraffe at close range. For Cameroon I brought 250 gr TTSX mainly because I had a lot loaded but just wanted to know the difference of point of impact. It was a big benefit to know because my ammo didn’t arrive and I knew almost exactly how to adjust my scope. The 250s are extremely accurate in my gun but I'm leaning more towards 300 gr every trip now regardless of animal inside 300 yards.

Here’s a 300 gr lead bullet properly sighted in for comparison

 

[WyoBull]

I haven’t tried a 235 TSX and 300 gr TSX but I have done 250 gr TTSX and 300 gr lead bullets. You might be surprised at the difference in point of impact. I found 5.5-6 inches between them at 100. I brought my 375 as a one rifle hunt for Namibia mainly for PG so I sighted in for 250s but brought 300 gr bullets in case an opportunity for something heavier was presented. I ended up using them on giraffe at close range. For Cameroon I brought 250 gr TTSX mainly because I had a lot loaded but just wanted to know the difference of point of impact. It was a big benefit to know because my ammo didn’t arrive and I knew almost exactly how to adjust my scope. The 250s are extremely accurate in my gun but I'm leaning more towards 300 gr every trip now regardless of animal inside 300 yards.
View attachment 586061View attachment 586060

Here’s a 300 gr lead bullet properly sighted in for comparison
View attachment 586062

Good info, thanks for posting it.

 

[mark-hunter]

I am sure there are many of you who would argue otherwise. I would like to hear your comments.

I cannot make any further argument. I will be taking my 375 HH for my first buffalo hunt.

 

[DERIAN KOEKEMOER SAFARIS]

Good day sir.
Everybody will have their favourite rifle and bullet, and at the end of the day SHOT PLACEMENT and PENETRATION is the key to success. So that being said 95% of our hunts trough out the year is Dangerous Game hunts and most Buffalo being shot is with a .375 H&H or 416 Rigby in my personal opinion the 416 is one of the most penetrating bullets there is, at the end if you practice enough with your rifle of choice to do buffalo hunting with you will be much more effective with that. On the bullets side the Swift A Frames is one of the best for shooting buffalo, the A Frame and .375 H&H is the buffalo killing combination. Your Barnes bullets is also very very good bullets.

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

I am planning a DG Safari and while preparing for this trip I have been absorbing and digesting information about rifle cartridges performance on dangerous game and to be specific for taking Cape Buffalo and certain larger plains animals such as Kudu, Wildebeest and Zebra. Ranges for buff would be 0-100y and for all others 50-350y. Ignoring the very specific needs of the PH to carry a "Stopper" in case a wounded beast charges I am considering which chambering to apply for my hunt. Toward that end can a case be made that bigger is NOT always better? I will offer some comments to start but really want to hear what you experienced hunters think?

• Data presented in this forum by a PH covering over 60 buffalo suggests that the 375 H&H resulted in one-shot-stops about 80% of the time. This included the 9.3mm Mauser and exceeded the results of all other larger calibers.
• If not being applied as a close range DG only rifle the flatter trajectory of the 375 or even the 416 Rigby make them better for longer range shots allowing a better chance of a well placed first shot.
• I do not think anyone would argue that a 500NE would not be a better stopper at 50ft distance and there are inherent advantages of a classic double rifle in making a quick 2nd shot. But I have also seen hunters miss shots out past 50y on buffalo with their doubles. Have also seen them mis-identify the target when hunting with only iron sights resulting in misses or shooting the wrong animal.
• I think most of us would agree that assuming we have chosen a proper DG rifle/cartridge then the importance of a well placed first shot is the most important variable that would determine success.
• The development of cup-point solids has greatly enhanced the penetration of smaller DG rounds such as the 375 which closes the performance gap between it and other larger calibers when applied as a close range stopper.
• The variable of recoil sensitivity is hard to predict. I am not all that recoil sensitive and often bird hunt with a light weight 12ga dbl and love it but also know that after a long day of dove hunting I tend to raise my head anticipating recoil and thus begin to shoot high over my birds. Double rifles or very large caliber bolt guns are extremely valuable and the ammo is quite costly. As a result, few hunters are going to shoot hundreds of rounds thru them. Without that practice it is easy to miss or worse make a poor hit due to anticipation of the significant recoil.
• Often the slower, larger projectiles do not expand with the same authority of the faster options. Comparing a 375 A-Frame or Barnes X in 300g leaving the muzzle at 2550 fps to for example the 458WM running about 2000fps at the muzzle. By the time they hit the animal at say 100y it is not unusual for the expanded diameter of the 375 to be equal or larger than the expanded diameter of the 458. Thus the permanent wound channel may also be larger. These premium bullets like the Swift or Barnes options also improve the terminal effects of the larger calibers but only up to the limits of the velocity they leave the bbl and their ability to expand. If you have seen Swifts bullet display of expansion at slower velocities you know that they do not expand all that much below 1650fps. The big ole 458WM dwindles to that speed at about 200y while the diminutive 375 does not drop below that speed until out past 350y. Based on that data, one could hypothetically expect that at 200y a 375 H&H and a 458WM both loaded with Swift A-frame bullets might expend to very similar diameters at 200y. The larger 458 still has more retained energy at that range but

My original choice was the 416 Rigby since I thought I might not want the recoil from the 458 or larger options. Before I could find a suitable rifle, I came across a nice 375 and bought it, so I have mostly made my choice. I do own a 458 but being limited to bringing only two rifles with me, I am planning to leave the big bore home since it is only really useful (IMO) for the buff and the rainbow trajectory makes using it on longer range plains game a poor choice. I am sure there are many of you who would argue otherwise. I would like to hear your comments.

forgive me if i am repeating i havent read whole thread

for the buff or other dangerous game, shoot the biggest that u shoot well!!! so probably a 375 and thats enough

also then u dont need any other rifle for your safari, do the whole thing with the 375

done...and done