DG calibers/energy laws versus rifle competency

[cajunchefray]

The current thread on the 9.3x62 for dangerous (thick skinned) game has set me to pondering. Many great hunters prefer the 9.3 due to extra magazine capacity, lower recoil for a fast second shot.

Many are accomplished riflemen and women, with a 9.3x 62, and PH's evaluation of field use, by their clients, allow based on real experience.

Game laws, by country, define caliber and minimum energy. As I understand, one can use the 9.2x62, with appropriate loads for energy, for Nyati in Zimbabwe, but not South Africa.
What about competent shooters? Can a competent rifleman, with a 9.3x62, loaded with premium 286 or 300 grain bullets, deliver consistently on target and not hunt RSA? It makes no sense, but most governmental agencies, worldwide, are subject to vagaries.

In Sweden, and other Nordic countries, a proficiency test is required to get a moose license, shooting at the range at 80 meters, on a moving target, with a certain number of kill zone shots.

Why not a proper proficiency test to hunt Africa? Could this be an economic hurdle, the PH's to get clients? Certainly, do not wish to impede their ability to book clients, make a living wage and to continue what is a difficult endeavor.

The BASA has competitive rules, that could be modified, so that a visiting hunter could qualify, with their own rifle, to hunt.

Thinking of two scenarios:

1. The long-time hunter/ rifleman, that has proper rifles, and practices over the years, maybe even reloading to get in more practice to maintain competence. A consistently good shot off sticks at 100 meters, and offhand at 50 meters.

2. The average American hunter, that harvests a few deer, elk, hogs etc. every year with his favorite 300 mag, etc., then buys a 416/ 450 plus rifle 3 months before his first Buffalo hunt, shoots it a few times, then heads to Africa.

Which will pass the field competency test? I do not know, but a field test for competency, may save some wounded game, lost trophy fees, and possibly an injured or worse tracker, PH, etc.

As I prepare for my first African safari (still a few years away), I work within these guidelines, hitting an 8-inch circle (pie plate) consistently:

-375H&H off sticks 100 meters- check
-458 off sticks, 60 meters (first shot only, the recoil slows me down working the bolt), then offhand within 40 meters- check
-500 Jeffery, offhand- no way- sold to a fellow member.

What do veteran safari hunters, and PH's think?


I

 

[BryceM]

Legal proficiency requirement? Nah, we already have enough hoops to jump through.

Practice? Of course.

Legal minimum calibers? Well, you’ve got to draw the line somewhere, but anyplace that allows archery or handguns shouldn’t be too restrictive on rifles, IMO.

As for effectiveness, there’s a decent argument that the .375 H&H is the sweet spot for most DG hunters, old and new. One bullet in the right place is a better answer than any other suggestion. I’m not ignoring the need of big bores to stop pachyderms.

 

[375Fox]

I think your PH makes that judgement when your sight in the rifle. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that current system. Minimum calibers are always per the PH. I don’t know of any competent PHs that wouldn’t allow a client to use a 9.3x62 as a minimum.

 

[Puddle]

Regs in RSA are a bit more granular than that. The national parks / reserves perhaps require the minimum equivalent of what the .375 H&H / Ruger, can deliver, but it is the discretion of the private landowners / safari operators whether the 9.3x62mm Mauser is sufficient for Buff (which is the only DG I've hunted).

I've seen the looks of satisfaction across the faces of RSA PH's when the 9.3mm is first pulled out and they invariably begin reminiscing about how their elders used the 'ol 9.3mm on everything.

My last RSA Cape Buffalo Cow cull hunt was great fun and without drama using 300 grain A-Frame handloads. Next time I'll be loading 286 grain NF Spitzers and will be making some fun factor comparisons.

 

[Flbt]

The current thread on the 9.3x62 for dangerous (thick skinned) game has set me to pondering. Many great hunters prefer the 9.3 due to extra magazine capacity, lower recoil for a fast second shot.

Many are accomplished riflemen and women, with a 9.3x 62, and PH's evaluation of field use, by their clients, allow based on real experience.

Game laws, by country, define caliber and minimum energy. As I understand, one can use the 9.2x62, with appropriate loads for energy, for Nyati in Zimbabwe, but not South Africa.
What about competent shooters? Can a competent rifleman, with a 9.3x62, loaded with premium 286 or 300 grain bullets, deliver consistently on target and not hunt RSA? It makes no sense, but most governmental agencies, worldwide, are subject to vagaries.

In Sweden, and other Nordic countries, a proficiency test is required to get a moose license, shooting at the range at 80 meters, on a moving target, with a certain number of kill zone shots.

Why not a proper proficiency test to hunt Africa? Could this be an economic hurdle, the PH's to get clients? Certainly, do not wish to impede their ability to book clients, make a living wage and to continue what is a difficult endeavor.

The BASA has competitive rules, that could be modified, so that a visiting hunter could qualify, with their own rifle, to hunt.

Thinking of two scenarios:

1. The long-time hunter/ rifleman, that has proper rifles, and practices over the years, maybe even reloading to get in more practice to maintain competence. A consistently good shot off sticks at 100 meters, and offhand at 50 meters.

2. The average American hunter, that harvests a few deer, elk, hogs etc. every year with his favorite 300 mag, etc., then buys a 416/ 450 plus rifle 3 months before his first Buffalo hunt, shoots it a few times, then heads to Africa.

Which will pass the field competency test? I do not know, but a field test for competency, may save some wounded game, lost trophy fees, and possibly an injured or worse tracker, PH, etc.

As I prepare for my first African safari (still a few years away), I work within these guidelines, hitting an 8-inch circle (pie plate) consistently:

-375H&H off sticks 100 meters- check
-458 off sticks, 60 meters (first shot only, the recoil slows me down working the bolt), then offhand within 40 meters- check
-500 Jeffery, offhand- no way- sold to a fellow member.

What do veteran safari hunters, and PH's think?


I

How much practice does some of the dg hunters have?
I can’t tell you the shows I watched and the ph had to tell the hunter to reload.
The last hunter I had to tell reload your gun was 7

And I am not talking about guys that shot to empty I talking about having to be told to reload after the first shot

There are a lot that do shot to empty and have to be told to reload

 

[cajunchefray]

Legal proficiency requirement? Nah, we already have enough hoops to jump through.

Practice? Of course.

Legal minimum calibers? Well, you’ve got to draw the line somewhere, but anyplace that allows archery or handguns shouldn’t be too restrictive on rifles, IMO.

As for effectiveness, there’s a decent argument that the .375 H&H is the sweet spot for most DG hunters, old and new. One bullet in the right place is a better answer than any other suggestion. I’m not ignoring the need of big bores to stop pachyderms.

I understand and agree we don't need more hoops to jump through.

Practice is a fleeting thought for some people, the below comments about the PH needing tell a hunter to "reload" speaks to the proficiency factor.

What I see at the local ranges (not a substantive sample) just astounds me.
The PH's ritual of "checking the zero" with a client must be very revealing.

 

[JimP]

The thing with the PH telling the client to reload is just reflex on their part. On both of my safaris my PH has told me to reload after I had already reloaded without him even knowing it. That along with topping off the magazine before you proceed after either a dead or wounded animal. I have only heard a PH tell a client to top off their magazine a couple of times on these TV shows.

One problem with being proficient is that all that proves is that he can shoot accurate. It doesn't tell you if he can do it under pressure. I have watched very proficient hunters empty their rifles without firing a shot with all the cartridges sitting there on the ground when they are excited.

 

[Philip Glass]

How much practice does some of the dg hunters have?
I can’t tell you the shows I watched and the ph had to tell the hunter to reload.
The last hunter I had to tell reload your gun was 7

And I am not talking about guys that shot to empty I talking about having to be told to reload after the first shot

There are a lot that do shot to empty and have to be told to reload

The say Americans are bad about "admiring the shot". The excitement of Safari makes many just forget to reload. It is a very common thing even for experienced hunters.

 

[Nhoro]

9,3 x 62 is not legal for buffalo, elephant or hippo. It meets the calibre requirement but not energy requirement.

I think we all agree that shot placement is important. But penetrating the vitals and wound diameter is just as important. I guess it is just human nature that we chip away at the standards set by others, and say one aspect is more important than another. But I think most governments agree that dead hunters is bad for business. So they set standards with a safety margin built in. So i agree with 375 h&h as a minimum. 9,3 x62 is marginal and a 375 is capable.

As for a shooting test, it isn't really feasible. To take a day out of your hunt to shoot a test. Also the Zim PH license shoot is basically set up and administered by civilians at our local range- So who would even administer the test. I believe that is why a PH is required to accompany a hunter. They evaluate the shooting ability and then set up the shot and sometimes back up. Most clients shoot perfectly. I think probably the last 15 buffalo hunts I filmed were down in 50 m. I met one guy on a plainsgame hunt who was terrible. He boasted that he was 2nd in a competition in Florida with all the local law enforcement/ marine snipers. I expected exactly what we got, some dodgy shots but all the animals in the bag because he had a big enough calibre. Big hole + exit wound so all animals were recovered.

So I reckon most hunters are competent and get the job done in the accuracy department. They just need to use calibre capable of getting the job done from any reasonable angle.

 

[375er]

USE ENOUGH GUN!!!

 

[Flbt]

The thing with the PH telling the client to reload is just reflex on their part. On both of my safaris my PH has told me to reload after I had already reloaded without him even knowing it. That along with topping off the magazine before you proceed after either a dead or wounded animal. I have only heard a PH tell a client to top off their magazine a couple of times on these TV shows.

One problem with being proficient is that all that proves is that he can shoot accurate. It doesn't tell you if he can do it under pressure. I have watched very proficient hunters empty their rifles without firing a shot with all the cartridges sitting there on the ground when they are excited.

The say Americans are bad about "admiring the shot". The excitement of Safari makes many just forget to reload. It is a very common thing even for experienced hunters.

I guess growing up dog hunting I never had the time to look at the shot
I keep shooting until it was down or out of sight

 

[Flbt]

9,3 x 62 is not legal for buffalo, elephant or hippo. It meets the calibre requirement but not energy requirement.

I think we all agree that shot placement is important. But penetrating the vitals and wound diameter is just as important. I guess it is just human nature that we chip away at the standards set by others, and say one aspect is more important than another. But I think most governments agree that dead hunters is bad for business. So they set standards with a safety margin built in. So i agree with 375 h&h as a minimum. 9,3 x62 is marginal and a 375 is capable.

As for a shooting test, it isn't really feasible. To take a day out of your hunt to shoot a test. Also the Zim PH license shoot is basically set up and administered by civilians at our local range- So who would even administer the test. I believe that is why a PH is required to accompany a hunter. They evaluate the shooting ability and then set up the shot and sometimes back up. Most clients shoot perfectly. I think probably the last 15 buffalo hunts I filmed were down in 50 m. I met one guy on a plainsgame hunt who was terrible. He boasted that he was 2nd in a competition in Florida with all the local law enforcement/ marine snipers. I expected exactly what we got, some dodgy shots but all the animals in the bag because he had a big enough calibre. Big hole + exit wound so all animals were recovered.

So I reckon most hunters are competent and get the job done in the accuracy department. They just need to use calibre capable of getting the job done from any reasonable angle.

I don’t know where your man was shooting in fl.
But I have been to shoots and horse shows where you would be 3er or better because 3 or less people were there.

I could easily see were a cert or swat member showed up and only one other guy was there.

When I was showing a stud at some horse shows I all ways won first.

I was the only person around that was willing to show a stud.
And yea if I could have used that to get more for a beading fee. But if anyone check it would not have been worth the hassle

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I have seen guys who have hunted more than forty years act like stupid eleven year-old kids in the field just shooting to fill the air with as much lead as possible. I've also seen guys who could shoot a hundred straight skeet but would have better chance throwing their shotgun at a flushed pheasant.

Laws are made for the general public. An Indy car driver may be an expert driving a hundred miles an hour six inches from the cars around him but the laws can't be made for exceptions like him.