Disappointed In My New 404 Jeffery

[Considering Africa]

Well after waiting months and months, I finally picked up the 404 Jeffrey today. I came home, and I immediately went out back and put some rounds down range. Much to my surprise, the recoil was very significant. “Much more than my 416.” After just three rounds, I was ready to put the rifle down. I went to the safe and got the 416 Rigby and shot it a few times. After shooting the Rigby and realizing the recoil was much less, I installed the muzzle brake that came with the new 404. I then shot 3 more rounds and the recoil was significantly less, I would say around 40% less.

“Both ammo was factory Hornady”

The 416 weighs 11 lbs and the 404 weighed in at 9.2.

I found the felt recoil of the 404 very surprising. What are all of you guys think?

There are several recoil charts available comparative recoil charts on the web. They show loading of a 400 in the 416 and 458 Winchester 416 has 52 foot pounds of recoil felt, the 458 shows 55 projectile. When I went to a different chart that compares the 458 both Winchester and 458 lot with the 404 Jeffrey the 404 Jeffrey with the 400 green projectile shows 55 pounds of recoil. These charts are all available via Google Chrome.

 

[colorado]

I've said it a thousand times. A 400 gr bullet at 2350fps is a 400 grain bullet at 2350 fps. No matter what case it comes out of. All this nonsense about the 404 being some pussycat to shoot is BS. Gun weight and stock fit are infinitely more important than any slight case design differences. When the 404 came out it was loaded to 2100 fps or thereabouts. If you load any of the 416 rounds to that level you'll have an easy shooting load as well.
My Winchester 70 416 Rem Mag weighs in at 9lbs even with scope mounts only, no scope. With scope it comes in at 9lbs 14 oz. Loaded to 2350 fps it is no pussycat to shoot either. But it is shootable nonetheless. Especially since I had the stock lengthened to my correct LOP.
Did you have your 404 made to your correct LOP?

I agree mostly with you but the amount of powder is also a consideration. In this case, 416 Rigby vs 404 Jeffery, it's not a factor. I can tell you both by math and feel shooting my 500 Jeffery with H4898 vs IMR 4350 is a substantial difference with the same bullet and velocity.

 

[Jack Stevens]

I agree mostly with you but the amount of powder is also a consideration. In this case, 416 Rigby vs 404 Jeffery, it's not a factor. I can tell you both by math and feel shooting my 500 Jeffery with H4898 vs IMR 4350 is a substantial difference with the same bullet and velocity.

With the IMR 4350, what amount or grain-weight (roughly) replicates the original .404 Jeff velocities with a 400grn bullet, i.e., 2000-2100fps?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

With the IMR 4350, what amount or grain-weight (roughly) replicates the original .404 Jeff velocities with a 400grn bullet, i.e., 2000-2100fps?

I'm shooting 400 gr Barnes with 80 gr Accurate 4350 and though I don't have a chronograph, judging by felt recoil I'm guessing about 2200 fps. I started at 77 gr and got very good group but was pushing primers ( = not enough gas) so I jumped it up to 80 gr. Accurate and IMR seem to perform about the same. At the time IMR4350 was unavailable due to pandemic. Accurate powder seems to work so I stuck with that load. At fifty yards bullets land on each other and recoil is stout but manageable. I tried loading 307 gr bullets with H4895 and the recoil was just too much. Still trying to find a powder/load that will work with that bullet.

 

[Jack Stevens]

* * * I tried loading 307 gr bullets with H4895 and the recoil was just too much. Still trying to find a powder/load that will work with that bullet.

Tried AA5744? The Woodleigh 350grn RN SN bullets really liked it.

 

[C.W. Richter]

What is the weight of the gun?

 

[Rule 303]

What is the weight of the gun?

More importantly how is the stock fit for you.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Tried AA5744? The Woodleigh 350grn RN SN bullets really liked it.

Thanks. What's an equivalent North American powder brand?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

What is the weight of the gun?

Over ten pounds loaded.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

More importantly how is the stock fit for you.

LOP may be a little short but not significant. I will be getting a NECG recoil pad that's a half inch longer. 30mm scope is mounted very low. Actually had to shave a very tiny amount from bolt handle to get complete clearance. I can now pass a dollar bill between bolt handle and ocular bell when bolt is opened.

 

[Rare Breed]

With the IMR 4350, what amount or grain-weight (roughly) replicates the original .404 Jeff velocities with a 400grn bullet, i.e., 2000-2100fps?

You guys are really close. If it was me I would go into QL and enter my desired FPS of say 2150 with a 400 grain bullet then run through different powders to find the one with the lesser grains within safe PSI…that load will generate the lowest recoil and deliver your other requirements

 

[Jack Stevens]

Thanks. What's an equivalent North American powder brand?

5744.

 

[Rule 303]

LOP may be a little short but not significant. I will be getting a NECG recoil pad that's a half inch longer. 30mm scope is mounted very low. Actually had to shave a very tiny amount from bolt handle to get complete clearance. I can now pass a dollar bill between bolt handle and ocular bell when bolt is opened.

Can you mount the rifle with eyes closed, and when you open them you are looking through your sights? Or sight, close eyes, relax grip, then tighten grip open eyes, are you still on POA or very close to it?

 

[Beck]

I've said it a thousand times. A 400 gr bullet at 2350fps is a 400 grain bullet at 2350 fps. No matter what case it comes out of. All this nonsense about the 404 being some pussycat to shoot is BS. Gun weight and stock fit are infinitely more important than any slight case design differences. When the 404 came out it was loaded to 2100 fps or thereabouts. If you load any of the 416 rounds to that level you'll have an easy shooting load as well.
My Winchester 70 416 Rem Mag weighs in at 9lbs even with scope mounts only, no scope. With scope it comes in at 9lbs 14 oz. Loaded to 2350 fps it is no pussycat to shoot either. But it is shootable nonetheless. Especially since I had the stock lengthened to my correct LOP.
Did you have your 404 made to your correct LOP?

yes, this is a basic rule of physics - energy is energy

 

[Rule 303]

yes, this is a basic rule of physics - energy is energy

This is true but stock fit, more than weight, will determine how that energy is transmitted to your shoulder.

Also the design of the cartridge case and powder used will contribute to the energy produced.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Can you mount the rifle with eyes closed, and when you open them you are looking through your sights? Or sight, close eyes, relax grip, then tighten grip open eyes, are you still on POA or very close to it?

Yes. But that is because scope eye relief has been properly adjusted. Iron sights line up very close with the mount-and-open-eyes test. The LOP for my Springfield 03A3 seems more natural and it has LOP that's about 5/8" longer. The 404 scope will just touch me sometimes. A half inch extra LOP should take care of it.

 

[Rule 303]

Yes. But that is because scope eye relief has been properly adjusted. Iron sights line up very close with the mount-and-open-eyes test. The LOP for my Springfield 03A3 seems more natural and it has LOP that's about 5/8" longer. The 404 scope will just touch me sometimes. A half inch extra LOP should take care of it.

This should mean you have very good rifle fit and felt recoil would not be as bad as from a rifle that was a bad fit. Other things come into the fit but a pleb like me is not up to speed with this like a good stock maker.

 

[Jack Stevens]

I've said it a thousand times. A 400 gr bullet at 2350fps is a 400 grain bullet at 2350 fps. No matter what case it comes out of. All this nonsense about the 404 being some pussycat to shoot is BS.

Again, that statement assumes the ballistics are equal from the git-go. As between the .416R and the .404J as originally loaded, they’re not. I’ve pointed out several times in this thread that a 400grn bullet launching at 2000-2100fps from a 9.8-something rifle will impart significantly less felt-recoil than the same weight bullet launching at 2350fps from the same rifle with perfect stock-fitment and an experienced rifleman using good shooting technique.

Gun weight and stock fit are infinitely more important than any slight case design differences.

Agree, but the nominal ballistics matter more when the variables of weight and fitment are otherwise equal or so close as to be marginal.

When the 404 came out it was loaded to 2100 fps or thereabouts. If you load any of the 416 rounds to that level you'll have an easy shooting load as well.

2100fps would’ve been a near-maximum load in the .404 Jeff originally, but we also need to factor for barrel length and ammo-maker.

Kynoch, for example, used a 28” barrel (or test-barrel fixture) to claim a muzzle velocity of “2125fps” for a 400grn bullet as loaded in its “original era” .404J ammo. Yet in the field, nobody used a .404 rifle with a 28” barrel that I could find in the old accounts (Taylor’s book, among others). WR’s .425 rifle had an oddly long barrel but that’s a different cartridge. Most Rigbys, as far as I know, sported 24” tubes.

Kynoch .404 Jeffery

So, out of a real-world .404J rifle having a 23” or 24” barrel, Kynoch’s old ballistics chart cites m.v. as being at or near 1975fps for a 400grn bullet (see MidwayUSA link below). Huge difference right there and a comparatively sedate load for that bullet-weight, if accurate.

Kynoch 404 Jeffery Ammo 400 Grain Woodleigh Weldcore Solid Round Nose

Kynoch Ammunition is widely respected as the true originator of the classic British Nitro Express Cartridges. In association with Eley Limited, Kynamco...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[Yukontom]

I have Kynoch/CIC load info from about 25 years ago that shows the 400 gr bullet at 2,125 fps. With that load the 404 is a pussycat. Having built my own rifle shown below and working up loads for it there is a noticeable difference in recoil between 2,000 and 2,200 fps loads. It is all physics regarding rifle weight, bullet weight and velocity and recoil. In my opinion a 404 needs to weigh about 10 to 1 1/2 pounds. I started with RL15 powder which is considered a powder of choice for the 404 but like a slower burning powder when case capacity allows so ended up using RL17. I stopped at 2,000 fps with the 400 gr Swift A-Frames and got great accurracy and i'm satisfied with the velocity. Good enough to kill the buffalo shown in my avatar. The rifle is a Pacnor barrel on an FN commercial Mauser action that I bought many years ago. The wood is from a Claifornia Claro blank hand selected als many years ago.