Double Rifle Handling Standards...

[Tanks]

Finally after an 18 day wait CA DOJ release my Heym 88B in .500 NE to me. I won't be able to take it to the range until middle of next week due to work commitments.

However, as a USPSA competitor I am a big believer in dry fire practice, and spend over an hour a day dry firing my pistols going through multitude of drills.

Now, so far I can think of a few drills which I can expand as time goes.

1a) Mount the gun from low ready and index (aim), touching (not pressing ) the front trigger). This will be done in slow motion for some minutes to make sure all mechanics are there (forward stance, same spot on the shoulder, etc., etc.).
1b) Mount the gun from low ready and index (aim), touching (not pressing ) the front trigger) with timer.
2) Bring the gun down and break it open.
3) Reload and close the gun.
4) Bring the gun up.

Once comfortable with drills 2-3, they would become one step. I had trained my one second reload the same way, bring gun down and bring magazine into the lip and next step was to insert the mag and remount the gun. Breaking complicated motions and working on them individually seems to work in gaining speed and competence.

I will expand Step 1b with movements to the sides and forward and doing it on the move as I stop. The actual reload of gun with rounds will occur once I make some dummy rounds this weekend as I don't believe in dry fire with live rounds anywhere near me. The reload also will be practiced on the move once it becomes one step.

Question 1: Anyone have any idea on standards for time, so I can have something to shoot for as I progress with a shot timer. I know I can improve, just need to set goals. (To give an example I can draw and aim in .8 secs with a pistol, but know others that can do in .6. Live fire I can shoot a 7 yard A zone target in a second from draw but know others that can do it in <.8 secs).

Question 2: Any other handling skills can any of you can think of I should incorporate?

I have about 85 days left before my hunt, so want to make sure I spend enough time practicing the mechanics under time pressure to build the muscle memory. Not to mention getting used to wielding an 11.6 lbs firearm.

Thanks.

 

[Red Leg]

Dry drills are great with any rifle. As you indicate, just try to never actually dry fire a double.

Do you own a double barrel shotgun with double triggers? Firing enough .500 NE loads to become completely in tune with that caliber will be hard on you and the rifle itself. With a double twelve bore and a nearby clays range, you can work through 80% of the familiarity drills associated with a double rifle. If you don't have one, you don't need a Holland & Holland Royal. You don't have a lot of time before your hunt, but an old Ithaca or Fox Sterlingworth is not difficult to find on an on line site. Four weekends of fifty or a hundred birds each trip and you will be a pro. I would suggest finding a gun with somewhat open chokes so the clays scores aren't too discouraging.

One of the handier drills with a double is holding another pair of shells in the left hand while shooting for a quick reload. I tried this for a bit, and decided that should I ever go on an elephant culling trip, it might be a useful skill. For a client - not so much.

And I use a sling with my doubles. Left shoulder carry, muzzles down. It is as fast as the "African carry" and far safer and less fatiguing.

 

[edward]

you can safely fire a double using caps.

 

[Tanks]

you can safely fire a double using caps.

Chris Sells from Heym told me not to do it even with caps.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Love him or loathe him, there are a few good pointers in this video.

 

[Nhoro]

Have a look at this thread. It has the PH exam format which would be useful performed as drills. I do them at home with dummy rounds for practice. It stresses moving and reloading. If you join the Zim learner pro hunters Facebook, they publish the results of the exams including times and scores. You can also see videos of me doing the shoot although my times were nothing to write home about! They shoots are designed to put pressure on you with time counting on your score + about 30 people watching you.

https://www.africahunting.com/threa...ters-and-guides-shooting-test-may-2019.50705/

I would also practice offhand shooting/ using shooting sticks/ using trees as rests. Remember your primary job is to hit the target first time so that follow ups and all the quick shooting skills are not needed! Manipulating sticks and adjusting your body quickly to get on target takes a little practice.

 

[Tanks]

Love him or loathe him, there are a few good pointers in this video.

Yes, I have watched it a few times in the past. The pointer about safety is very good (though that is how I train and shoot anyway), the way to carry the gun when getting ready to shoot is very useful. As he says, it almost causes no fatigue. That is the starting position for my mounting drill.

I would also practice offhand shooting/ using shooting sticks/ using trees as rests. Remember your primary job is to hit the target first time so that follow ups and all the quick shooting skills are not needed! Manipulating sticks and adjusting your body quickly to get on target takes a little practice.

Yeah, it does. That is something I have always practiced with my bolt guns. Shooting off-hand and shooting with the sticks. I will do the same with the double. Though using trees probably would be frowned on at the range.

They shoots are designed to put pressure on you with time counting on your score + about 30 people watching you.

Yeah, I am used to time pressure and people watching.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Love him or loathe him, there are a few good pointers in this video.

Oh no! Colonel Flagg (from MASH) returns.

 

[Tanks]

Please let's not derail the thread with Mark Sullivan opinions. There are at least two threads about him that I know of that people can rehash their opinions.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Dry drills are great with any rifle. As you indicate, just try to never actually dry fire a double.

Do you own a double barrel shotgun with double triggers? Firing enough .500 NE loads to become completely in tune with that caliber will be hard on you and the rifle itself.

So dry firing it is bad for and live firing it is hard on it? What's the point of having it then?

Chris Sells from Heym told me not to do it even with caps.

Seems quite brittle for what it is.

By the by, what are you a B class Limited?

 

[Tanks]

What I was told about it is that with no resistance the firing pins could break, and then it is a trip to the gunsmith. For a pistol you can dry fire without damaging the firing pin, and even if something happened replacing the firing pin is not a big deal as anyone can do it.

 

[Red Leg]

So dry firing it is bad for and live firing it is hard on it? What's the point of having it then?

Seems quite brittle for what it is.

By the by, what are you a B class Limited?

Don’t be deliberately obtuse. One can go to a clays range and fire hundreds of shotgun rounds with a double 12 bore. One can do it week after week, year after year. The gun will hold up for tens of thousands of rounds. Neither one’s shoulder nor a double rifle will handle that sort of use. I simply noted that a shotgun is the best way to become instinctively competent with double triggers.

 

[crs]

"So dry firing it is bad for and live firing it is hard on it? What's the point of having it then?"
AMEN! Forrest, you crack me up! Really! I agree with you more often than not!

I grew up shooting sxs guns and a lot of what is written on this forum is new to me and lacking in common sense!

One of the the best things about my double rifles is that they handle almost as well as my Parker 12 ga with which I often have made shots that amazed even myself!
The first hog I shot with my then new Simson .405 DR was just like I was shooting my Parker. It came up smooth, front bead in bottom of rear V of express sight, and went off without without my pulling the trigger!
Dang that felt good to me - not so for the boar which was DRT before a chase dog shook it so hard that they both slid down the muddy bank into the creek! One of those memories not to be forgotten.


Red Leg, IMHO, Forrest is not obtuse, he just has the sense of humor often found in older shooters.
BTW, I agree with you on this: "I simply noted that a shotgun is the best way to become instinctively competent with double triggers."

 

[Red Leg]

"So dry firing it is bad for and live firing it is hard on it? What's the point of having it then?"
AMEN! Forrest, you crack me up! Really! I agree with you more often than not!

I grew up shooting sxs guns and a lot of what is written on this forum is new to me and lacking in common sense!

One of the the best things about my double rifles is that they handle almost as well as my Parker 12 ga with which I often have made shots that amazed even myself!
The first hog I shot with my then new Simson .405 DR was just like I was shooting my Parker. It came up smooth, front bead in bottom of rear V of express sight, and went off without without my pulling the trigger!
Dang that felt good to me - not so for the boar which was DRT before a chase dog shook it so hard that they both slid down the muddy bank into the creek! One of those memories not to be forgotten.


Red Leg, IMHO, Forrest is not obtuse, he just has the sense of humor often found in older shooters.
BTW, I agree with you on this: "I simply noted that a shotgun is the best way to become instinctively competent with double triggers."

I'm an older shooter - damn near ancient.

 

[Newboomer]

I'd call everything in that Sullivan video totally relevant except maybe letting a buff come 10 feet from me. Momentum could drive him right into me even if he's dead.

 

[rinehart0050]

For those who use a sling with their doubles, what type/style? Can you recommend a particular brand or manufacturer?

 

[Forrest Halley]

What I was told about it is that with no resistance the firing pins could break, and then it is a trip to the gunsmith. For a pistol you can dry fire without damaging the firing pin, and even if something happened replacing the firing pin is not a big deal as anyone can do it.

So the recoil plate isn't going to chip away like a Glock, but rather the pins are going to shear? I think I'd call up Randy Lee at Apex Tactical and have him design you some firing pins. Sounds like a very similar problem as occurs in Smith and Wesson Revolvers. I'm over 50,000 cycles on my firing pin.

Don’t be deliberately obtuse. One can go to a clays range and fire hundreds of shotgun rounds with a double 12 bore. One can do it week after week, year after year. The gun will hold up for tens of thousands of rounds. Neither one’s shoulder nor a double rifle will handle that sort of use. I simply noted that a shotgun is the best way to become instinctively competent with double triggers.

Clearly I understand the economic prohibitions in doing this, but you're killing my dream of owning one of these things by telling me how fragile they are. Something is wrong if the engineering isn't being put into place to dryfire these guns given the economic implications of firing them. If Kreighoff can design a safety that decocks the hammers, why can't a dryfire system be incorporated into the action? If I can get it in a $1500 Walther air rifle why is it obtuse to expect same in a rifle costing more than five to ten times as much? Especially since I would practice an hour a day if I owned a rifle such as this. I would hardly be found without it.

 

[Tanks]

So the recoil plate isn't going to chip away like a Glock, but rather the pins are going to shear? I think I'd call up Randy Lee at Apex Tactical and have him design you some firing pins. Sounds like a very similar problem as occurs in Smith and Wesson Revolvers. I'm over 50,000 cycles on my firing pin.
...
Especially since I would practice an hour a day if I owned a rifle such as this. I would hardly be found without it.

I am not putting aftermarket parts designed by a pistol part company in my Heym and void the warranty.
Plus, installing the firing pins is NOT a user serviceable item. At least not for me.

Now, in regards to practicing, as mentioned in the first post it really is not critical to pull the triggers anyway for the muscle memory I am trying to build. However, if you do wish to pull it then you can pull and hold triggers back with the action open and then close the action (recommended for storage) the gun will remain un-cocked. Then you can pull the triggers to your heart's content.

BTW, after about 6 minutes of mounting the rifle, lowering it and repeat... I have to take a break as I start getting sloppy. So, I rest and then go again. First time it was even less time before I had to take a break, so improving in that aspect. Also, MS method of carrying as outlined in the video actually works in that carrying the 11.6 lbs rifle seems effortless due to the support provided by various body parts.

Girlfriend actually told me today that I need to step up the dry firing and range work for the hunt as she read that airlines will start flying select destinations in June. She also said I needed to move up my hikes and work up to 10 miles a day quicker. Of course, she is off work, and I am working

 

[Red Leg]

So the recoil plate isn't going to chip away like a Glock, but rather the pins are going to shear? I think I'd call up Randy Lee at Apex Tactical and have him design you some firing pins. Sounds like a very similar problem as occurs in Smith and Wesson Revolvers. I'm over 50,000 cycles on my firing pin.


Clearly I understand the economic prohibitions in doing this, but you're killing my dream of owning one of these things by telling me how fragile they are. Something is wrong if the engineering isn't being put into place to dryfire these guns given the economic implications of firing them. If Kreighoff can design a safety that decocks the hammers, why can't a dryfire system be incorporated into the action? If I can get it in a $1500 Walther air rifle why is it obtuse to expect same in a rifle costing more than five to ten times as much? Especially since I would practice an hour a day if I owned a rifle such as this. I would hardly be found without it.

It's not the economics Forest or even the "fragility" of a double rifle - I am simply worried about your anatomy. Go purchase your .470 or .500, fire 3 LXR's out of it off the sticks (that's six shots in double rifle lingo) and tell me how many you are willing to fire to become instinctively experienced with double triggers. Sadly, the builders of these things tend to assume the buyer is competent in their use before purchase.

 

[Tanks]

Exactly. My goal is to get ~ 200 rounds through the rifle off-hand and off the sticks at various distance out to 100 yards in the next 10 weeks. That is not enough repetitions of live fire to get super comfortable with the double triggers.

Not to mention some things I will have to experiment, for example with pistols I reset, prep (not that there is much slack on a 2011 with a 1.25 lbs trigger) during recoil so I am ready the moment the gun comes down. Does one do the same during recoil with the back trigger, or just move the finger but not release the slack etc.?

I'll find out on Wed. when I take it out to the range.