Double rifle moral dilemma

[Roland Tembo]

Why not meet in the middle and go 375 flanged? A little big for Europe, legal for Africa.

Just a thought.

Three main reasons: can't find many second hand DR chambering .375 here, ammo is scarce and pricey yet delivers performance very similar to 9,3x74R, and so... even if legal for dangerous game, most PH won't consider this cartridge enough to bring me elephant hunting.

.470 NE : € 20 - 25.- per piece not € 15.-
If you get them at all.
9.3x74R without question, unless you collect.

M.S.said
big gun means worst shooting.

Some Hornady factory load prices here in my country for a quick fuel comparison:
- 375 H&H (belted) 300 gr >> 162€ x 20 rounds (usually rimmed version is x1.5 time the price, but I didn't find loads from Hornady)
- 9,3x74R 286 gr >> 186€ x 20 rounds
- 470 NE 500 gr >> 346€ x 20 rounds

 

[degoins]

For all of the talk about reduced loads in double rifles, it’s a road of trouble for many. You can re-regulate most doubles but the odds of having one shoot both regular and reduced loads satisfactorily isn’t as likely. It’s very advanced gun work in most cases.

I've owned a vintage and a few modern doubles and I've been able to get light bullet loads to regulate in all of them without much trouble. The vintage double was regulated to shoot both light and heavier bullets from the maker and from what I've read and from some load data that came with some vintage doubles that I've seen that practice was not uncommon.

 

[One Day...]

End of Last paragraph definitely doesn't apply to me.....just saying

Completely agree and you are right on the money when you say "does not apply TO ME" (emphasis added) Lucky you

You are the lucky guy who lives in country and can grab from your rack whatever rifle is best for that specific day's hunt; do not worry too much if you do not get the ideal shot this week because you can go again next week or next month; and will likely never shoot your double past 50 yards - and likely a lot less - because you are only shooting to back up a client when things go wrong.

I am the guy who flies half around the world only once a year for 3 weeks at best and once every two years more likely; has to make it work with only what I have in my gun case; and has to make every opportunity and every shot count including out to 75 or even 100 yards on a hart & double lung shot if necessary; so to me the "fugly gun" as you call it, and a couple barrels if I am on a mixed PG/DG hunt, including the scoped .458 Lott pipe for DG, is the most logical tool

I would likely have kept the double .470 if I was a PH, but I am not and I am realisitc about it

 

[spike.t]

Completely agree and you are right on the money when you say "does not apply TO ME" (emphasis added) Lucky you

You are the lucky guy who lives in country and can grab from your rack whatever rifle is best for that specific day's hunt; do not worry too much if you do not get the ideal shot this week because you can go again next week; and will likely never shoot your double past 50 yards - and likely a lot less - because you are only shooting to back up a client when things go wrong.

I am the guy who flies half around the world only once a year for 3 weeks at best and once every two years more likely; has to make it work with only what I have in my gun case; and has to make every opportunity and every shot count including out to 100 yards if necessary; so to me the "fugly gun" as you call it, and a couple barrels if I am on a mixed PG/DG hunt, including the scoped .458 Lott pipe for DG, is the most logical tool

I would likely have kept the double .470 if I was a PH, but I am not

Ahhh...but I have a slightly possibly fairly unique position ,in that I have been on both sides of the counter. When I was on your side of the counter I used to bring anything up to 4 firearms...because I liked using as many as possible...this would usually be 3 rifles and a shotgun....those were mostly 416 rigby. 300 win mag..22 mag and 12 bore...one case and the 416 rigby and 300 win mag....never used to bother me humping the cases around.....so yeah can see your point ..but only calibre changeable rifle I have seen that I liked was the mauser mo3....so not against multi calibre rifles ...just the fugly one

 

[mark-hunter]

If you are tight in budget, buy now 9.3 double and use it, then when financially possible buy bolt action in caliber 375 or bigger. (cz, zkk, winchester, etc).

Forget 470 double.
I understand the appeal of big bores, but when budgetimg we have to be rational, not emotional.
I needed 9.3 for driven boars, bought semi auto. (poor mans double), and then I bolt action in 375 for everything in africa.
For me this is feasable and acceptable.

 

[One Day...]

Ahhh...but I have a slightly possibly fairly unique position ,in that I have been on both sides of the counter. When I was on your side of the counter I used to bring anything up to 4 firearms...because I liked using as many as possible...this would usually be 3 rifles and a shotgun....those were mostly 416 rigby. 300 win mag..22 mag and 12 bore...one case and the 416 rigby and 300 win mag....never used to bother me humping the cases around.....so yeah can see your point ..but only calibre changeable rifle I have seen that I liked was the mauser mo3....so not against multi calibre rifles ...just the fugly one

Yep. I read you loud and clear. A lot of folks already think that I am crazy bringing 3 calibers (typically .458 Lott / .300 Wby or .375 H&H depending on the hunt / .257 Wby), but I draw the line at one gun case, and a small one < 50 lbs. and < 62" at that

I too like the Mauser M03, and I wish it had not been discontinued, but I like the fact that the scope mounts on the barrel rather than the action on the R8, it makes return to zero from one barrel to the next more predictable, although I understand that M03 owners are satisfied with it.

As to the shotgun, Amen too, I will use yours when the urge of getting a Puku draws me to your neck of the woods

 

[RR 314]

What a bunch of terrible advice. Moderation is for p#$$|€$. . I kid. Well, just a bit. Throw practicality out the window. If the .470 makes you smile, checks out, and is still available, buy it.

Then again, I have been without sleep for two days and am weary. Listen to the rational folks and go with a .243 or 6.5 Creed. . Buy muni bonds as well.

I try not to be foolish with my purchases, but I do buy what I like, even if my friends shake their heads at times. Oh, and how they shake their heads.

 

[sniper7]

Buy everything you can afford as they are an investment.take what’s needed on your trips. Sell something later if you have to.

 

[Rare Breed]

If you

I would go for the 9.3x74r...one of my favourite calibres....shot buff and down with it....if you go the 470 route I think the novelty will wear off fast trying to use it on driven boar and general European hunting...I presume you haven't used bigger calibre rifles, so I think the dream is going to end up in disappointment....basically you are going to get a load more usage out of a 9.3x74r than a 470....and loading for a double is totally different than for a bolt action rifle....doubles are regulated for a specific load.....but if it's what you really want then go for the 470...just accept its not going to be what you imagined it would be when you use it for what you intend in Europe

If you are not going to commit to reloading you will most likely be disappointed in the DR 470. It is a rare thing to get a large bore DR regulating without hand loading. In my experience I would not get any DR unless you are committed to reloading…otherwise you will be disappointed

 

[Altitude sickness]

Franz doesn’t need no stinkin’ double

The only way to be faster would semi or full auto. Then accuracy goes to pot. Too long of lock time

 

[Altitude sickness]

Rare Breed nailed it.

Unless the rifle comes with the EXACT recipe it likes. (This is critical)
AND you can load that recipe yourself.

You will spend a lot of time and money chasing your tail. And most likely end up with very average accuracy. Like $400 shotgun slug accuracy. I’ve had bird barrel shotguns that shot slugs more accurately than some DRs. Let alone quality rifled barrel shotguns.

Most are happy with 2” at 50 yards. The best get 1” at 50 yards. half the accuracy of a $800 bolt rifle

We all love the thought of a DR. Unfortunately the reality is. If you spent the same amount of time and money on learning to shoot a bolt gun quickly. As chasing DR accuracy. Most would be better off. Financially and accurately

Now I say this, as I keep an eye out for the “right” DR for myself I didn’t say I was smart or financially intelligent.

 

[Pondoro]

Rare Breed nailed it.

Unless the rifle comes with the EXACT recipe it likes. (This is critical)
AND you can load that recipe yourself.

You will spend a lot of time and money chasing your tail. And most likely end up with very average accuracy. Like $400 shotgun slug accuracy. I’ve had bird barrel shotguns that shot slugs more accurately than some DRs. Let alone quality rifled barrel shotguns.

Most are happy with 2” at 50 yards. The best get 1” at 50 yards. half the accuracy of a $800 bolt rifle

We all love the thought of a DR. Unfortunately the reality is. If you spent the same amount of time and money on learning to shoot a bolt gun quickly. As chasing DR accuracy. Most would be better off. Financially and accurately

Now I say this, as I keep an eye out for the “right” DR for myself I didn’t say I was smart or financially intelligent.

Well..I have found that many large bore double rifles are quite forgiving..my .470 Krieghoff is a good example...it shoots/regulates almost identical with Hornady/Federal/Norma factory and it was easy to find a handload that regulate.. I think some of you exaggerate this as a problem..

And let me say this...I have been that much in the bush with both elephant and buffalo very close (15 - 20 meters) with both large bore bolt actions (Mauser derivatives..) and double rifles..

I will carry a double rifle any day..but not any double...

 

[Altitude sickness]

Pondoro,

Please don’t take my observations or opinions on DR’s as being hateful of them. I love them. And hope to find the ONE eventually

My Johann Fanzoj and Merkel were somewhat forgiving on bullets also.

 

[Roland Tembo]

So, just to give an epilogue to the thread...

I've read all the advice of yours but probably had already made my mind up to get that .470 in the first place.

Too good of a deal to let it go at the price. I've yet to find a purpose to the gun now, but I choose to sort this out later on.

I'll be opening some other specific threads to collect further info about the gun, ammo and reloding from other people acquainted with Merkel and .470 N.E. cartridges.

Gotta thank you all for the words of wisdom here.

 

[cmk]

So, just to give an epilogue to the thread...

I've read all the advice of yours but probably had already made my mind up to get that .470 in the first place.

Too good of a deal to let it go at the price. I've yet to find a purpose to the gun now, but I choose to sort this out later on.

I'll be opening some other specific threads to collect further info about the gun, ammo and reloding from other people acquainted with Merkel and .470 N.E. cartridges.

Gotta thank you all for the words of wisdom here.

If that is where your heart is, then it is the right decision.

While not a DR, I've been using my not-so-practical-for-European-game 404J bolt action on a few hunts per season since I got it some 5 years ago. So far, it has downed 2 roe deer, 1 fallow and 1 red fox. Overkill, sure.

And last month it finally got to do what it was intended for, on a buffalo hunt in Moz.

So start shooting it, take it hunting locally, and open that savings account labeled "Africa"

 

[BrownMax]

This is what I did, facing a similar dilemma:

I bought a Krieghoff in 470 NE many years ago, because I wanted one.... although I knew I probably could not find time in the years to come to travel to Africa and use it on dangerous game. I actually shoot it on regular occasions, practice shooting, or fun shooting at exploding targets, mostly cast bullets at reduced velocities.

Last year I ordered a new barrel set from Krieghoff in 8x57 irs, which is of course much more suitable for hunting in Europe. I picked up the new barrel set this spring, have tested it, and will use it on moose and red stag hunting later this fall. I have a low powered scope (1.1-4x20) in swing mount suited for this barrel set.

 

[Niklas]

So, just to give an epilogue to the thread...

I've read all the advice of yours but probably had already made my mind up to get that .470 in the first place.

Too good of a deal to let it go at the price. I've yet to find a purpose to the gun now, but I choose to sort this out later on.

I'll be opening some other specific threads to collect further info about the gun, ammo and reloding from other people acquainted with Merkel and .470 N.E. cartridges.

Gotta thank you all for the words of wisdom here.

Great to hear that you made the sensible choice and got the 470NE…

I was in the same situation (struggling to make up my mind on 470 vs 9.3x74r double rifle). Went with the 470… shortly thereafter booked a trip to Zimbabwe (had to because of the rifle )… last month found a 9.3x74R almost identical rifle to my 470 NE Blaser S2… had to have that one too…

 

[Ed Lally]

I have 2 R8s, one a Professional (synthetic stock) and the other a Safari with a Kickstop recoil reducer with barrels from .22-250 through .458 Lott and a Krieghoff Big Five double in .470NE. As well as a lifetime collection of other firearms. While I love my R8s, there is something special about the K gun. I put a red dot on it, mounted only a fraction of an inch over the original line of sight to preserve check weld and the feel of the mounted gun and found that shots up to 150 yards were still in a 4” circle. My first hunt with the K gun was in Zimbabwe for Cape buffalo, followed by several hunts in South Africa and, while I took my R8s, I hunted and took quite a few plains game with the .470. I just like the feel of hunting with this gun and its limitations on range make me hunt harder and have more pleasure in the pursuit. Get the .470 double.

 

[Daniel Cary]

I haven't shot the doubles .. yet.
the Krieghoff certainly fits like a dream, Merkel's are beautiful imo, however.