Early trials with a Snider

[camerl2009]

@fourfive8
I'm well out of my zone with both but I had a brain snap last night and thought I would run it by you.
As you are basically using a straight sided shotgun case would it be possible to use a smokeless load with a saboted slug. This would eliminate small charges air space in the cartridge and the problem of paper patched bullets.
It is just a thought I had may be laughable but you never know.
Bob

I wouldn't use smokeless.period in any Snider just not safe especially since the 24ga magtech brass is semi balloon head.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I wouldn't use smokeless.period in any Snider just not safe especially since the 24ga magtech brass is semi balloon head.

@camerl2009
I did say it was a brain snap, sometimes ideas just don't work but how would the same idea go with BP and a saboted projectiles in the case.
Probably the same no go but hey have to ask.
Bob

 

[camerl2009]

@camerl2009
I did say it was a brain snap, sometimes ideas just don't work but how would the same idea go with BP and a saboted projectiles in the case.
Probably the same no go but hey have to ask.
Bob

i think the problem is the slow twist and the fact that sabots are undersized

 

[fourfive8]

"I'm well out of my zone with both but I had a brain snap last night and thought I would run it by you.
As you are basically using a straight sided shotgun case would it be possible to use a smokeless load with a saboted slug. This would eliminate small charges air space in the cartridge and the problem of paper patched bullets.
It is just a thought I had may be laughable but you never know."
Bob

Don't know how it would act but the idea is certainly not laughable. For saboted rounds to work though, the tolerances need to be pretty close.

Once upon a time I did a lot of experimenting with smoothbore muzzleloaders using shotgun wads and BP. Not so much for slug loads but for large shot and buckshot loads. Even tested quite a few combinations using the tough, full length steel shot cups. As it turned out, I got better results and patterns with regular hard card wads and fiber wads than with modern shot cups. Go figure?

I know with the inline, fast twist +/- 28" muzzleloader rifle made specifically for sabots, I could never get top accuracy compared to conventional BP loads/projectiles in traditional muzzleloaders with twists in the 48" range. That included primarily 45, 50 and 54 caliber rifles. I shot my T/C Hawken 48" twist 50 cal, tang peep sighted with BP and their Maxi against my inline Knight fast twist 50 cal, scope sighted with a couple of different saboted modern bullet combinations and BP. After all the rage, the modern inline technology grossly underperformed for me. So I've been opher-2 using modern component loads in BP guns, albeit muzzleloaders.

So after that long winded ramble, I would be perfectly willing to try a BP saboted cast bullet load in the Snider. But coming up with the properly fitting sabot and bullet may be a challenge.

 

[bruce moulds]

458,
you are right about twist rates.
the snider twist is fast enough for its calibre bullets of the correct length.
larger calibres need slower twists.
the sabot bullet is however a smaller calibre when the sabot leaves it.
it will then require a faster twist than is imparted to it for stability.
you sure have some interesting journeys.
bruce.

 

[fourfive8]

Variety of shooting interests has always kept me entertained and busy. As per Bob’s thoughts, if I can find some of those 58 cal sabots that, IIRC, Hornady marketed years ago - I’ll try them. It’s been so long ago, can’t remember what bullet was intended to be used. If they were for shooting something like a 45 cal pistol bullet in a 577/58 cal, 72” twist musket, not hard to understand their short lived history. Likely that bullet would be cart wheeling not far out the muzzle

Recently I’ve only seen one company trying to market a 58 cal sabot for a longer, rifle type cast bullet. Not sure of the current status of the company or if still in business. They do mention the 28” and 48” twist in their ad.

Should be getting a 520 gr .599” “Snider type” cast bullet mold shortly. Interested in comparing that to my 450 gr flat RN bullet that has been behaving fairly well. Will post results after it arrives.

 

[fourfive8]

Snider mold arrived from Accurate Molds. Cast up some today and pan lubed them with SPG lube. Right at .600" and 520 gr. from the mold. Near pure lead. Should be able to get out to the range in about a week. Will post results

 

[fourfive8]

Took the Snider to the range a couple of times the past week to shoot the 520 gr ACC bullet. 1st test a few days ago was so-so with a cluster group @ 50 yds of about 5". Searching the ground between the muzzle and the target revealed a possible bugger. Fiber wads had been hitchhiking to variable distances between the muzzle and target. In the past this has proven to be an accuracy killer for BPCR shooting. Today I switched the wad column order so the 1/2" fiber wad was in the middle and the 3/16 felt wad was against the bullet's base. The group was an encouraging, consistent cluster of about 2 1/2" @ 50yds. No wads were found very far downrange... no hitchhikers! And above all no fliers. In the past some bullet and load combinations have occasionally yielded better groups but there seemed to always be a flier now and then. This load looks promising. The pic of the load today : Rem Sm Pistol primer, trimmed 24 ga Mag Tech brass, 60 gr FF BP, .7CC of COW, 1/2" fiber wad, 3/16" felt wad and .600" 520 gr ACC of near pure lead lubed with SPG.

Will continue to experiment with this interesting and challenging project. If I can get consistency (no fliers) along with maybe 1.5"-2" ave groups @ 50 yds I will have reached my objective.

With two years of Africa trip washouts, this project along with tying up some big zonkers, leeches, sculpin and flesh flies for a rainbow/coho trip to AK on the Naknek here in a couple months have kept my mind off the crap sandwich taste of intl travel and cancelled Africa trips.

 

[fourfive8]

Took almost exactly a year to achieve my objective with the Snider. I think I'm there. Nice day at range early this morning. Calm, cool and no shooters. The Snider shot well with this load. No fliers. The occasional flier has been the bugger ever since starting this project over 40 load combinations and a year ago! Also, I've always thought the 5 groove- 48" twist of this MK III short rifle should stabilize this bullet design ( or any suitable design really) and it certainly does after putting maybe 20 of these 520 gr ACC bullets downrange with various loads. Acceptable group size and elimination of fliers has been the difficult part of getting this rifle to shoot no matter the bullet tried. Basic bullet stability has not been an issue best I can tell.

1.8" @ 50 yds. Sight alignment of tip of front sight in bottom of VEE. Group just below POA.

.600", 520 gr ACC bullet w/SPG lube, near pure lead
1/8" dry felt wad
1 /16" lubed felt wad
20 gr (3.4 CC) COW mix
50 gr FF BP
Trimmed Magtech brass, 1.98"
Large pistol primer

 

[fourfive8]

In addition to playing with the Snider, in lieu of Africa, as mentioned earlier, been busy tying some big rainbow flies for AK. For silvers (cohos), if they're in, the upper row of hardware includes a couple of usually effective #4 Mepps and a Pixie. Taking a few Pixies to AK seems almost obligatory! The lower row has the big articulated zonkers, leeches and flesh flies for the rainbows and char.

Not sure if this ML post fits the AK Forum or not but there were certainly a lot of flintlock trade guns, not unlike this one, sent to Africa from Europe early on. So I'll shoehorn a post in here. Finally found a decent shootable US military flintlock musket- 69 cal smoothbore. So for me, the 69 caliber smooth bore flint musket will have to be the next best thing to the Brown Bess... which in good, shootable condition, is made of unobtanium and priced accordingly.

Here's a US M 1816 made at Harpers Ferry Armory with 1825 dates on lock and barrel tang in original flint configuration. Decent, original martial flintlocks are somewhat hard to find because so many of them were converted to percussion.

Took it all apart including the lock, cleaned and smoothed the thing up a little. These guns have basically a massive Brown Bess lock with a typically overcooked heavy mainspring. So for decent shooting, they need to be as smooth as possible. Tried a .678" roundball with ticking patch- the fit seemed right. Not too tight and not too loose. Grabbed a target and some extra flints, tools, odds and ends and headed to the range. Research indicates a 70 gr FF to be the standard service load for these. Lubed the patch strip with moose milk, short started the ball, cut the patch, rammed down on top of the 70 gr charge, primed with FFFF, cocked and let fly. Shooting these is like shooting a hang firing, shotgun with shotgun sights- mostly instinct and follow through!

Shot a decent group I'm happy with at 25 yds. Actually, even with a much slower ignition than my US M 1842 69 cal smooth bore percussion, it shot as well if not better than the M '42... go figure?

 

[Jake96]

Took almost exactly a year to achieve my objective with the Snider. I think I'm there. Nice day at range early this morning. Calm, cool and no shooters. The Snider shot well with this load. No fliers. The occasional flier has been the bugger ever since starting this project over 40 load combinations and a year ago! Also, I've always thought the 5 groove- 48" twist of this MK III short rifle should stabilize this bullet design ( or any suitable design really) and it certainly does after putting maybe 20 of these 520 gr ACC bullets downrange with various loads. Acceptable group size and elimination of fliers has been the difficult part of getting this rifle to shoot no matter the bullet tried. Basic bullet stability has not been an issue best I can tell.

1.8" @ 50 yds. Sight alignment of tip of front sight in bottom of VEE. Group just below POA.

.600", 520 gr ACC bullet w/SPG lube, near pure lead
1/8" dry felt wad
1 /16" lubed felt wad
20 gr (3.4 CC) COW mix
50 gr FF BP
Trimmed Magtech brass, 1.98"
Large pistol primer

View attachment 410845

View attachment 410848

Hi 458,

I really appreciate your thread about optimizing the 577 Snider round, and this is almost the most elaborated one I can find online so far. From my understanding of your posts, there are two bullet types (ACC 60-445B & ACC 60-520P) that you recommend. IMHO, the ACC 60-520P might be better for longer distances due to its streamlined shape, and it also has a better look which is more similar to the original cartridge. However, seems to me the ACC 60-445B could probably have a smaller group size based on your results.

May I know your opinions about these two? I am very curious about the accuracy of these two bullet designs as well as their long-range performances. Thanks again for your efforts on those high-quality posts and I am looking forward to hearing back from you.

 

[fourfive8]

Hi 458,

I really appreciate your thread about optimizing the 577 Snider round, and this is almost the most elaborated one I can find online so far. From my understanding of your posts, there are two bullet types (ACC 60-445B & ACC 60-520P) that you recommend. IMHO, the ACC 60-520P might be better for longer distances due to its streamlined shape, and it also has a better look which is more similar to the original cartridge. However, seems to me the ACC 60-445B could probably have a smaller group size based on your results.

May I know your opinions about these two? I am very curious about the accuracy of these two bullet designs as well as their long-range performances. Thanks again for your efforts on those high-quality posts and I am looking forward to hearing back from you.

Thanks for the kind words. I will have to go back through my load notes to give a proper response. I will do that via PM in a day or two.

But I am no Snider expert! I have never owned nor shot the more common Snider model which is the full length P1853 Enfield rifle musket conversion. However, I have owned and shot three different original P1853 Enfields. My Snider is the later, purpose built MK3 Short Rifle. As best I can determine all the full length converted P1853 Snider would have 1:78" twist bores while the purpose built MK3s have a 1:48" twist bore. My measurements confirm that. So comparing the two basic types of Sniders is somewhat apples to oranges. The ones converted from original, long Enfields with the very slow twist would be designed to shoot and stabilize a hollow base, Minie or Pritchett type bullet and the later, MK3 Sniders with a faster twist theoretically should stabilize a conventional, flat base bullet. Another thing I suspect is wide variations of chamber dimensions among all the Snider models. In total, working up usable loads for the Snider was a long and frustrating experience. Loading sure enough tactical loads that are historically similar to original, issued ammo has been equally challenging. I still don't think I have achieved that yet. Tactical ammo of course would have to be acceptably accurate. But it also would need to be reliable, durable and able to withstand rough field use and harsh weather conditions in transport, storage and on the battlefield.

I have felt for a long time the . 577 Snider was an expedient, intermediate step between the .577 Enfield muzzleloader and the 577-450 cartridge round with the Brits clinging to the basic .577 case size... in both instances turning out to be a somewhat impractical decision. The US, either by design or luck, went a much more direct and practical route by going from the .58 rifle musket straight to the 50-70 and 45-70 cartridge. They spent very little time experimenting with conversions of the basic .58 caliber rifle musket muzzleloader.

Anyway, I will look back through my load notes for some details of the loads I worked on and shoot you a PM in a couple days.

 

[Jake96]

Thanks for the kind words. I will have to go back through my load notes to give a proper response. I will do that via PM in a day or two.

But I am no Snider expert! I have never owned nor shot the more common Snider model which is the full length P1853 Enfield rifle musket conversion. However, I have owned and shot three different original P1853 Enfields. My Snider is the later, purpose built MK3 Short Rifle. As best I can determine all the full length converted P1853 Snider would have 1:78" twist bores while the purpose built MK3s have a 1:48" twist bore. My measurements confirm that. So comparing the two basic types of Sniders is somewhat apples to oranges. The ones converted from original, long Enfields with the very slow twist would be designed to shoot and stabilize a hollow base, Minie or Pritchett type bullet and the later, MK3 Sniders with a faster twist theoretically should stabilize a conventional, flat base bullet. Another thing I suspect is wide variations of chamber dimensions among all the Snider models. In total, working up usable loads for the Snider was a long and frustrating experience. Loading sure enough tactical loads that are historically similar to original, issued ammo has been equally challenging. I still don't think I have achieved that yet. Tactical ammo of course would have to be acceptably accurate. But it also would need to be reliable, durable and able to withstand rough field use and harsh weather conditions in transport, storage and on the battlefield.

I have felt for a long time the . 577 Snider was an expedient, intermediate step between the .577 Enfield muzzleloader and the 577-450 cartridge round with the Brits clinging to the basic .577 case size... in both instances turning out to be a somewhat impractical decision. The US, either by design or luck, went a much more direct and practical route by going from the .58 rifle musket straight to the 50-70 and 45-70 cartridge. They spent very little time experimenting with conversions of the basic .58 caliber rifle musket muzzleloader.

Anyway, I will look back through my load notes for some details of the loads I worked on and shoot you a PM in a couple days.

Thank you so much. I have a Nepalese Snider with three barrel bands, and given its slow twist rate I guess maybe the ACC 60-445B will perform better (though most of the resources online recommend the X-ring Service Mould which is some sort of similar to the ACC 60-520P). I might conduct a similar test as yours and share the results with you later.

 

[afmelo]

Hello!

I am a new member to this forum, being benchrest shooter and old rifles collector from Portugal.

Among other BP rifles I currently have 3 Sniders in my collection (photo herewith) used by the Portuguese armed forces at the time: a 1868 BSA long rifle, a 1878 artillery carbine made by the FA (“Factory of Arms”) in Portugal and a steel MK III Tower made cavalry carbine.

As well I have acquired the necessary equipment to start reloading .577 caliber.

Just did not start yet loading my 24 caliber Magtech brass due to doubts on the powders to be used. I would prefer not to use BP if at all practicable but having read the posts of the members much more advanced than me on this venture, came to the conclusion that the mix powder would likely be the most accurate solution.

My main issue now is that I do not have access to other than Vihtavuori powders, which are great for modern benchrest competition, but do not know whether they would fit on this load!

I will try to find equivalents on the various powder burning vivacity tables around.

May I ask whether the two powders are mixed together or instead placed one on top of the other?

Many thanks in advance for a clarification!

 

[Canadaboy]

Interesting thread! I’d like to get a Snider sometime soon. I’m only a few minutes outside of Halifax, so if I can I’d like to get one like yours from the Halifax garrison.

 

[fourfive8]

I tried the most common black powder substitute smokeless powder and it did not work within the pressure ranges I was comfortable. The powder best suited for BP comparable ballistics is 5744. It, I'm sure would work at some level of charge but I was not willing to approach that level. I also hear a lot of discussion about the use of Trailboss for these loads. My experience with Trailboss indicates it is an extremely fast burning powder and in my opinion not at all suitable for this. I do not believe Vihtavuori makes any powder suitable or comparable to 5744 or even the similar 4759 so certainly not for anything like BP ballistics in a cartridge like the 577 Snider.

I tried light charges of 5744 along with filler in the Snider and could not get the powder to pressurize as is required for all smokeless powders to properly burn and do so consistently. I'm afraid that the extremely high expansion ratio design of the Snider won't allow progressive powder loading without getting into pressure excursions that could exceed the safety limits of the rifle action itself. A gross scenario could go something like: load 20 gr of 5744 under a 450 gr cast bullet. The load fires but barely gets the bullet out of the bore- obviously not enough pressure for the progressive nature of the smokeless powder to consistency come up to even BP comparable levels. Increase charge to 40 gr of 5744 and still not get acceptable pressure and ballistics and still not up to BP ballistic levels. Increase charge to 60 gr of 5744 and BOOM! That charge of 5744 finally achieves normal smokeless pressure curve but the pressure spikes beyond the structural capability of the rifle's action. Smokeless powders by definition burn progressively and increase in pressure geometrically with linear increases in charge.

I am not willing to go there. BP or maybe an acceptable true substitute like Pyrodex are the only reasonable powders of choice for the Snider. I did develop a duplex load that works well and yields clean burning results in my Snider. My Snider is the purpose built short rifle model and not a conversion of an older musket, so it is the strongest of all the original Snider's. It also has the faster twist of 48" which seems to shoot the slightly heavier, longer cast bullet better. Most of the original Enfield rifle muskets have a twist rate of something like 78"- most suitable for roundballs, true hollow base Minies' and very short conicals.

My favorite load: 24 ga Magtech brass trimmed to 1.98" to best match my chamber length. I use magnum large pistol primers in the Magtech brass. I then measure 6 gr of 4759 or 5744 and load in case first. Then measure 50 gr FF black powder and load on top of the 4759. Then stack high density, 1/8" and 1/4" felt wads on top of powder so that bullet slightly compresses load when seated to correct depth. Do not use loose, low density filler like Dacron or cotton fiber for BP loads! I cast my own short conical bullets of soft lead of about 9 BHN. I pan lube all my cast bullets with a fairly soft lube like SPG. My best bullet for this rifle is the ACC 60-520P design. Once seated to best COAL, put a light roll crimp on case to help hold bullet in place. That's it. At 50 yards, off the bench, I can consistently shoot cluster groups of just under 2".

 

[fourfive8]

Interesting thread! I’d like to get a Snider sometime soon. I’m only a few minutes outside of Halifax, so if I can I’d like to get one like yours from the Halifax garrison.Added. Here are the key markings on mine that I believe was issued to the Halifax garrison.

Some of the key markings on mine

III. -- stamped on receiver ring and I believe indicates model MK 3
STEEL -- stamped on barrel and indicates steel used for later, non-converted rifles
BSA Co 1872 -- stamped on lock plate and shows maker and date of manufacture

D.C
2HGA -- stamped on left side of buttstock- garrison issue and rack #s, I think
197

 

[afmelo]

Very clear,

I tried the most common black powder substitute smokeless powder and it did not work within the pressure ranges I was comfortable. The powder best suited for BP comparable ballistics is 5744. It, I'm sure would work at some level of charge but I was not willing to approach that level. I also hear a lot of discussion about the use of Trailboss for these loads. My experience with Trailboss indicates it is an extremely fast burning powder and in my opinion not at all suitable for this. I do not believe Vihtavuori makes any powder suitable or comparable to 5744 or even the similar 4759 so certainly not for anything like BP ballistics in a cartridge like the 577 Snider.

I tried light charges of 5744 along with filler in the Snider and could not get the powder to pressurize as is required for all smokeless powders to properly burn and do so consistently. I'm afraid that the extremely high expansion ratio design of the Snider won't allow progressive powder loading without getting into pressure excursions that could exceed the safety limits of the rifle action itself. A gross scenario could go something like: load 20 gr of 5744 under a 450 gr cast bullet. The load fires but barely gets the bullet out of the bore- obviously not enough pressure for the progressive nature of the smokeless powder to consistency come up to even BP comparable levels. Increase charge to 40 gr of 5744 and still not get acceptable pressure and ballistics and still not up to BP ballistic levels. Increase charge to 60 gr of 5744 and BOOM! That charge of 5744 finally achieves normal smokeless pressure curve but the pressure spikes beyond the structural capability of the rifle's action. Smokeless powders by definition burn progressively and increase in pressure geometrically with linear increases in charge.

I am not willing to go there. BP or maybe an acceptable true substitute like Pyrodex are the only reasonable powders of choice for the Snider. I did develop a duplex load that works well and yields clean burning results in my Snider. My Snider is the purpose built short rifle model and not a conversion of an older musket, so it is the strongest of all the original Snider's. It also has the faster twist of 48" which seems to shoot the slightly heavier, longer cast bullet better. Most of the original Enfield rifle muskets have a twist rate of something like 78"- most suitable for roundballs, true hollow base Minies' and very short conicals.

My favorite load: 24 ga Magtech brass trimmed to 1.98" to best match my chamber length. I use magnum large pistol primers in the Magtech brass. I then measure 6 gr of 4759 or 5744 and load in case first. Then measure 50 gr FF black powder and load on top of the 4759. Then stack high density, 1/8" and 1/4" felt wads on top of powder so that bullet slightly compresses load when seated to correct depth. Do not use loose, low density filler like Dacron or cotton fiber for BP loads! I cast my own short conical bullets of soft lead of about 9 BHN. I pan lube all my cast bullets with a fairly soft lube like SPG. My best bullet for this rifle is the ACC 60-520P design. Once seated to best COAL, put a light roll crimp on case to help hold bullet in place. That's it. At 50 yards, off the bench, I can consistently shoot cluster groups of just under 2".

Thank you.
I have found that 5744 is placed somewhere between Vihtavuori N110 and N120.
In the meantime I runned a calculation in QuickLoad and found an interesting result for Vihtavuori N32C Tin Star, which is much faster powder (I use it for reduced loads in my Kropatscheks and Mausers).
In fact the maximum pressure allowed for Snider is, according to QuickLoad, about 1.500 bar , 21.756 psi. A load of 19 gr of Vihtavuori N32C Tin Star will produce a chamber pressure of 1003 bar, or 14.544 psi and a muzzle velocity of 1220 fps (attached chart).
The calculated filling volume is 49,2% and the balistic efficiency 47,9%.
Should all this be true in the real world, this load should in theory work very well.
However we all know that between theory and practice there is usually a significative gap...
What do you think about the usefulness of this data? Would it be likely safe?

 

[fourfive8]

Sounds promising and should be within margins. The input looks correct for the 577 Snider case. Give it a try and post results. 21K max sounds a little high for many black powder guns of that era but I don't know specifically about the max pressures for the rifle musket Enfields, Snider conversions nor the MK IIIs. The 1220 fps is in the ballpark for a normal full BP load, depending on bullet. The projected 15k psi will give a small margin for error. I always try to operate within the margins for guns of the era.
Results including chronograph results will be interesting.
Thanks for the data- can never have too much data!

 

[afmelo]

Sounds promising and should be within margins. The input looks correct for the 577 Snider case. Give it a try and post results. 21K max sounds a little high for many black powder guns of that era but I don't know specifically about the max pressures for the rifle musket Enfields, Snider conversions nor the MK IIIs. The 1220 fps is in the ballpark for a normal full BP load, depending on bullet. The projected 15k psi will give a small margin for error. I always try to operate within the margins for guns of the era.
Results including chronograph results will be interesting.
Thanks for the data- can never have too much data!

Thank you for the feedback.
I mainly use QuickLoad to calculate the safety margins and develop loads for my rifles.
Curious enough, it worked very well for the 8mm Kropatschek (the same cartridge developped for the famous "Guedes" rifle) with the various loads I have tried, although it was originally a BP cartridge.
I have also been using cast and H&M lead bullets for reduced loads with bolt rifles like various Mausers and other through II WW (Lee Enfield, Mosin Nagant, K31, etc) with fast powders, without any problem so far, although evidently these rifles have a much stronger construction!
But the goal is to try "escape" the BP trap, as it is more dangerous to manipulate and very dirty!
If you by chance do not have QuickLoad avaiable, I will be happy to execute any calculations you may wish!