Experience & Value Versus Cost

[enysse]

My point is, in a very longwinded way, that there is cause for concern as we like to participate in a hobby that attracts a lot of fraud and dishonest services by its nature. From the onset of the thread @James Jeffrey - HuntingAgent.com was mentioning outfitter fees and who is “cheaper”. Services vary significantly from person to person and the level of protection is quite different too. Who the outfitter is working for is also different. If outfitters want respect in this world where they are not afforded much benefit of the doubt, blow the lid off how everything works. Show every credit and kickback. Explain how much you make for what you do, how much the PH makes. Explain how the concession gives the PH a credit back. Explain who gets cuts of trophy fees. Explain who’s side each party is on and how they are compensated. Explain how the taxidermists in Africa give goods and tips to PHs for bringing them clients. Explain how transport companies give something back to those that select them.

Unfortunately it will never be this clear cut and dry.

I can figure out how much profit is being made on a hunt just by comparing hunts. Most outfitters do the same thing. As a customer you are always going to have to take every situation with a grain of salt. There are always compromises in every hunt.

I find that hunting with people I like personally enhances my experience and enjoyment.

When people start looking at the lowest number every time and try to convince another outfitter to cut his or her prices down to the competition....this when problems happen.

 

[BRICKBURN]

......... So, what vetting does AH do for the members on the outfitters that are sponsors of this site and the offers they make? I look forward to an answer. John

John, the specific answer is covered in this link.
https://www.africahunting.com/help/marketplace

 

[cpr0312]

So, what vetting does AH do for the members on the outfitters that are sponsors of this site and the offers they make?

I would say that by all of us (the members) checking hunt reports on the sponsor outfitters, it will be a good indicator of what you can expect. In my experience here, the hunt reports are a very good inicator

 

[JamesJ]

@rookhawk the thread is more about value and experience than price alone. The hunts and prices were listed just to show somewhat of a comparison between a few hunts. I'm not knocking anyone prices or how they do business, the examples were to compare how big or small the difference was.

If someone says I'll never be able to afford a Tanzania, Mozambique or Zim buff, but I can afford a buff in RSA today, I'll book it. Had they waited, shopped around and educated themselves they could have done exactly the hunt they wanted to begin with for a reasonable amount. Possibly for the same money, maybe a bit more maybe less. if you want to go to RSA then more power to you its a beautiful country and the hunting is great. I'm sure lots of guys take the hunt they can afford and have a great time, with no regrets about the decision. But many people regret the decision and wish they would have waited to make the hunt they really wanted.

What agents make is no secret in the industry, I wish it was. Industry standard is 15% maybe more or less, depending on where, what and what deal is agreed to with the outfitter. I may only make commission on the day rate or the trophy fees or both. Sometimes I'm paid a straight fee for a booking. Commission is not taken on hard cost, fees, license, taxes, charters, etc. so even though a hunt is $15,000, only $10,000 may pay, I still have to handle all of the $15k and be responsible for it, but there is no profit in it. Ive had hunts go bad and covered the refund out of my pocket, if the outfitter refused. 50% i wish.

Ph's in general make about $150 per day, yes referrals pay some money whether its taxidermist or whatever, but its generally pretty small amount and I don't begrudge anyone making that. I don't get mad when my insurance agent pays a referral or gets a break on premiums because he works there. Some outfitter pay the PH's a small com for animals taken as they should. these guys work too hard and put up with too much shit to work for nothing.

 

[BRICKBURN]

...........
That said, let's just say for some reason Juan Pace tried to become a sponsor, Jerome had never heard of him and lets him in. I think it would be seconds after Juan's first post that you'd see the stinky stuff hitting the fan alerting Jerome to the situation. ......... .

He made a few attempts early on in my Membership here. I finally looked at some video and did an image capture to compare the face in the video to the one in the Rhino poaching debacle.
It did not take long to see they were the same guy. I posted it for all to see for themselves.

 

[JamesJ]

@rookhawk BTW Cabelas booking does nothing to vet their outfitters, you just sign up. I actually hunt with my outfitters and have a personal relationship with them. There is a big name out in the hunting world and he has a new "endorsed" program, for a fee you can be endorsed by this person, what happens when a hunt goes bad?

 

[sierraone]

Vetting? I am not sure that someone on this site has the time on a volunteer basis to do a background on every offer made on the forum. In addition to the hunts offered in many countries, what about that 1 or 2 or 3 rifles I will offer for sale in the future? Is the vetter going to do a background on the PH on a hunt offer? Is the vetter going to some way confirm that the rifle I offer is exactly as I say? Am I who I say? My point is that in my mind, this would be a full time job with members, PH's and outfitters all over the world. Who wants this job? Since this would have to occur before the offer would be posted, I think all of us will have to do our own vetting, as the marketplace link that @BRICKBURN posted suggest.

 

[JamesJ]

Dammit

 

[BRICKBURN]

We just finished the show season and while I still have some bit of liver function, I thought I would do sort of a soapbox thread.

One disturbing trend that I'm seeing is guys passing on great hunts and experiences and opting for a quick cheap hunt instead. Not all of us are wealthy and we cant afford to travel the world chasing women and buffalo with no regard for cost, sanity or STD's. But, I think there are very well priced hunts out there that offer an amazing experience and are overlooked based on price alone.

Ranch hunting is fun and the experience is great, but comparing a ranch hunt to a hunt in Tanzania, is frankly just silly. Ive been lucky enough to do a lot of hunting all over the world and the truth is if, you cant afford to buy what you want, then you are better off saving another year and get exactly what you want. Hang onto your car one more year, buy one less gun/scope this year, you really don't need a 90" TV, stop kidding yourself the youngest child will never go to college. Take that money and put it in your hunting account instead.

I'm using buff as an example, as it comes up so much. I had a couple guys pass on hunts we had put together, they instead book with shady outfitter X offering super cheap buff, no daily rates, plane fare, strippers, etc on his 200 acre farm. Guess what they were unhappy with the result. So instead of spending a bit more money or saving another year, it cost them a lot more in the end. They got an immature buff that was a pot shoot on the first day and then the outfitter drove them in circles shooting PG.

Hunts in Zim with first class outfitters are running $12-15k, TZ $17k, MOZ $13-15K, RSA free range hunts can be a had for $14-16K. Don't get me wrong there are some great ranch hunts and some legit operators doing proper hunts on big properties, use them. But please stop giving advice and telling us your outfitter is the best and his 500 acre farm is as good as Zim or TZ, I'm really tired of hearing it.

Save another year and book the hunt you really want don't just book because its cheap or choose a different outfitter because he is $100 cheaper. Im not the cheapest guy neither is Aaron at @Global Hunting Resources we offer quality hunts and great experiences at fair prices. We are also a resource on the site for you guys who are new and have questions about hunts.

 

[thi9elsp]

@PHOENIX PHIL @sierraone Your points and Phil's link give me pause to the rule referenced that 'no posting to an offer if you have no intent to buy'. Not all offers have the same level of details. Members here often ask questions as to size of property, does 7 days mean 7 hunting or includes arrival / departure, high / low fence, etc. According to the rule, I may have no intent to purchase but may ask questions for clarity. This provides a new person insight and information they may not think to ask. But, it appears I would be in violation of a rule.

As to the fact that no vetting takes place. New people to the website may not realize that and assume vetting occurs - just as someone might for DSC or SCI offered auction hunts. So, even though we as members may not have intent to purchase, we may ask questions that help a prospective buyer better vet the offer themselves.

As to price, here's a fictitious example: $3,300 off on Buffalo. 7 days - daily rates $1,100 /day trophy $4,500. On the blush sounds like the offer is great. However, the daily rates the same and all that has been done to save the $3,300 dollars is reduce a normal 10 day hunt to 7 days. In my opinion, that would not be a real discount. Yet, I don't have the right to point that out if I have no intent of purchase? Or ask a question about success rates on 7 vs 10 days?

 

[siml]

Last, the illusion of need, the illusion of benefit. Many people are under illusions that they need an outfitter to prevent them from being robbed. (when the outfitter is more often than the operator, the robber) Then, when there is a general issue that needs help it becomes clear the outfitter has no carrot to dangle, no sway, no authority, no pull to remediate the problem. Often the guy is dealing with a $60,000 hunt that went south but his commission was $6,000. The customer thinks the outfitter is going to make good on the debacle when there is no blood in the stone

You lost me with this part??

 

[BRICKBURN]

@PHOENIX PHIL @sierraone Your points and Phil's link give me pause to the rule referenced that 'no posting to an offer if you have no intent to buy'. Not all offers have the same level of details. Members here often ask questions as to size of property, does 7 days mean 7 hunting or includes arrival / departure, high / low fence, etc. According to the rule, I may have no intent to purchase but may ask questions for clarity. This provides a new person insight and information they may not think to ask. But, it appears I would be in violation of a rule.
.................

If I were a Pedant that rigid application might be true.
The intent is to stop SPAM. If you ask, as I do, legitimate questions to seek clarification in aid of the offer and other members you are not likely to be moderated. Ask "pointless crap"and I'll be picking my head up. If I see a pattern you may be warned. If the person persists, the end result will reduce my work load quickly.

The goal of the Community is to help our fellow hunters out, Rookies to Veterans.
If you have something worthwhile to add, do so. Which comes back to the original concern being expressed....

Experience and Value versus Cost!

 

[sierraone]

Dammit

Yep! Look what you started!!!

 

[thi9elsp]

@PHOENIX PHIL Thanks for the clarification - I thought we were on the same page. John

 

[thi9elsp]

Isn't vetting the process one goes through to determine Experience / Value vs. Cost?

 

[sierraone]

Isn't vetting the process one goes through to determine Experience / Value vs. Cost?

IMO, a business or organization can decide and put into writing what is required to vett someone. For you or me, it's at what point are we convinced that the subject person or business is who he says and can provide the service or item we want. Being vetted by the Feds to be hired for overseas contracts requires 2-3 months, EACH TIME you apply. So who is doing the vetting and for what reason makes a huge difference.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@PHOENIX PHIL @sierraone Your points and Phil's link give me pause to the rule referenced that 'no posting to an offer if you have no intent to buy'. Not all offers have the same level of details. Members here often ask questions as to size of property, does 7 days mean 7 hunting or includes arrival / departure, high / low fence, etc. According to the rule, I may have no intent to purchase but may ask questions for clarity. This provides a new person insight and information they may not think to ask. But, it appears I would be in violation of a rule.

As to the fact that no vetting takes place. New people to the website may not realize that and assume vetting occurs - just as someone might for DSC or SCI offered auction hunts. So, even though we as members may not have intent to purchase, we may ask questions that help a prospective buyer better vet the offer themselves.

As to price, here's a fictitious example: $3,300 off on Buffalo. 7 days - daily rates $1,100 /day trophy $4,500. On the blush sounds like the offer is great. However, the daily rates the same and all that has been done to save the $3,300 dollars is reduce a normal 10 day hunt to 7 days. In my opinion, that would not be a real discount. Yet, I don't have the right to point that out if I have no intent of purchase? Or ask a question about success rates on 7 vs 10 days?

First, I'm not sure about the no vetting taking place. If that was mentioned by others so be it. What I said previously is I don't know what Jerome does in that regard.

Regarding the types of questions you mentioned for outfitters, from my viewpoint those are legitimate questions. Jerome and/or Wayne are the ones to decide where the line is drawn, not me.

That said, when someone makes a comment that equates to, "This offer is terrible, I can do better elsewhere", that to me clearly has no place in the thread.

 

[twilly24]

I don't see any of this as off topic. I think a lot of hunters have opinions. It just happens to be that it's not what some people want to hear. I think it all has to do with valve/experience vs cost.

 

[CAustin]

@PHOENIX PHIL,
It takes folks a little while to realize that this site is a money making enterprise......business. The founder has a welcoming site for hunters to review all manner of hunting information. If there is a hunting question the answer can be found here. Opinions are offered and sometimes argued/debated.
At the same time sponsors pay for the privilege to post offers. Not all offers are created equal. Some offers, in my opinion, are over priced. To the new member that over priced offer may seem like a deal until much research is done. As mentioned nobody vets that offer or outfitter for the hunter.....he/she is expected to do that.
Who is to say what my intent is with regard to buying a particular type hunt. When I joined this site I had really only done one safari. Since then I have completed three more and have booked another. Three of these hunts were purchased here on AH. To date I have spent or agreed to spend in excess of $50,000 with an AH sponsor. I have made inquiries of outfitters and hunting agents publicly and privately about there advertised hunts. You can bet your last dollar that I ask a lot of probative questions before agreeing to a hunt. I have actually made a comment that some might view as unsupportive of an advertised hunt and had that outfitter email me and offer to work with me on a better price. Was I wrong to do that! I think several outfitters here know that I am serious about hunting and am apt to spend a great deal of money on doing what I enjoy and appreciate me asking questions. Am I wrong to do that? I have seen many offers here that I found the pictures of the lodge or hunting areas to be amazing and said so. Was I wrong to do that because I may not intend to buy the hunt from that outfitter? By the strict interpretation of the rule you reposted from Wayne I would be wrong. Right!? But because it's a flattering post nobody cares!
Flip that coin to unsupportive and it becomes a different proposition. Then comes the protection of the advertiser. The moderator or owner can remove those unsupportive comments.
You once told me in a PM that my questioning a hunt offer and price made you cringe. Why is that? Is it decorum your worried about or hunters stopping to ask themselves questions about the offer? Again I try to always wish the outfitter good luck in selling the hunt. If I neglect to do that sometimes then that's my mistake.

You asked
So for my own clarification on your post, do you think this rule is good orbad?

Answer
Jerome is free to make the rules as he owns the site.

 

[BRICKBURN]

.............. I have seen many offers here that I found the pictures of the lodge or hunting areas to be amazing and said so. Was I wrong to do that because I may not intend to buy the hunt from that outfitter? By the strict interpretation of the rule you reposted from Wayne I would be wrong. Right!? But because it's a flattering post nobody cares!.....

Charlie, I'll repeat.
Whether flowery or critical the rules apply.

If I were a Pedant that rigid application might be true.
The intent is to stop SPAM. If you ask, as I do, legitimate questions to seek clarification in aid of the offer and other members you are not likely to be moderated. Ask "pointless crap"and I'll be picking my head up. If I see a pattern you may be warned. If the person persists, the end result will reduce my work load quickly.

The goal of the Community is to help our fellow hunters out, Rookies to Veterans.
If you have something worthwhile to add, do so. Which comes back to the original concern being expressed....

Experience and Value versus Cost!