1. Hi Paul...embedded in my reply was the silent hope/possibility that getting a profound understanding of the mechanics of recoil, reading and re-reading it, might empower some more people to erase those perceptions. As an example, on my way to Goulburn one time some years ago I read the write up on the Boyes anti tank rifle. It made me nervous...and the size of the cartridge reinforced the rather frightening description of how short was the time people could use it. I even read ssomewhere that the recoil killed the user in some cases. The fact is that I didn't understand the science of the burning inside a large case nor that prone shooting is significantly more punishing than standing and shooting where the body is free to move,as is the barrel...all dissipating energy.
Socrates, I appreciate your endeavour to empower people with knowledge, never a bad thing, but I will re-iterate my personal belief that the knowledge and understanding of a generic law of motion such as Newtons has little PRACTICAL applicationto most shooters whome are trying to pre-empt their personal suitability and effectiveness with any given cartridge and the recoil it generates.
Newtons Law will be present in EVERY rifle, regardless of caliber, this will not change and is a factor not in control of any rifle shooter progressing to a larger, or smaller, caliber.
Understanding and acknowledging that every action has an equal and oposite reaction will not help "Bob" choose a .458 over a .500
Most shooters already know rifles recoil, and that recoil increases exponentially as one increases in bore size and energy/velocity produced and weather or not they understand how and why it happens may, or may not be of little consequence.
Hence my response listing a number of the contributing factors that DO have a practical, controllable, avoidable effect on recoil and that ARE variable.
Newtons Law, when all things are equal is not variable.
You can ride a horse and feel relaxed, but the horse doesn't. Your tension restricts its mind. An experienced observer can tell you you are too tense, pulling on the reins whilst kicking it forward (knowing nothing of cantering a horse on the spot)and you'll argue to corrugations out of a water tank defending your position...you incorrect posiiton. The same sort of factors apply to recoil...its important but has become obsessive perhaps in an hedonistic society is one explanation "please don't hurt me..."
Obsession with recoil, as you put it, is generally amongst the uninitiated and that is where we need to be most careful. As I mentioned in my previous response I believe some shooters are mentally discouraged from selecting certain cartridges through their perceived impression of legendary recoil and are therefore robbed of the tremendous advantages some of these cartridges can provide if used correctly.
The list you gave are all factors in the head scan of the enemy "that massive cartridge everyone is scared about' but as I see it...science opens one's mind. If you grasp what it's all about you can prepare your mind and body to accept the science. No company makes cartridges designed to kill the shooter.No capable and sensible person is lying on the ground for a shot at a 1500 pound buffalo ten metres away. What I wrote put science into the relentless recoil discussion and of the two or three fears (and one is the perception you mentioned) at least one can now be waved oodbye..'fear of the unknown" and its follower "experience of fear of the unknown" in a tensed body.
A porperly built stock in close keeping to the physical dimensions of the individual shooter fired from a firearm that does not produce an intollerable level of muzzle blast for that particular shooter whome has assumed a comfortable and controllable stance (an entire other subject) with a firm grip in the correct positions firing a cartridge of straight-walled design will go MUCH further in assisting the majority of rifle shooters coming to grips with heavy recoil than the assistance provided by having their minds opened to the science.
Sorry.
Today you meet that one incapable and insane person who has, to date, shot two buffalo whilst laying on the ground at point blank range in thick scrub with a .458 Lott to finish off the animals.
I can assure you that when you find the horse which in your first experience was bucking like crazy was only pig-rooting...a great deal of fear dissipates. I think that applies across the board. The guy with skinny arms fears the techo tatoo'd muscular guy who picks a fight with him but if fear is overcome that guy with the skinny arms can inflict staggering pain on the other bloke (and again fear is why people tattoo themselves in tribal fantasies..to scare off possible demons.)
In my own words I generally try to explain to most that familiarity with a certain cartridge will bring a certain level of comfort.
That is only true if the level of recoil generated by said cartridge is within the tolerance level of the shooter to begin with.
My personal case in point, no matter how much time I spend with certain cartridges i.e .300 & .340 Weatherby's, .416 Rigby etc, continued exposure will only lead to an ingrained flinch.
Just as your bucking horse analogy, some bronks just aint getting riden !
I find your generalisation of people with tatoos offensive.
Many people tatto for MANY different reasons.
To qualify, I personally have no tatoos.
It then, like a ghi becomes a uniform in which more power is generated through mind control ..until someone flattens him and reality comes home to roost). I have been hit hard by pretty big men and felt some of it , but my easy going daughter can dead arm me every time with a punch from her thin arms and pianist's hands....Weighing probably 6 stone she decked a bloke who tried it on with her in an ice cream parlour when she was 16..she didn't think of fear, she just clocked him. The other daughter at 13 with one punch knocked out a 15 year old boy who had pulled a knife on my son...fear wasn't there to disable them, they just reacted.The body knows how..it is 'we' who get in its way!
My son was never a boy who got ito fights but when a older bloke had a go at him in a Mosman street one night he broke the bloke's jaw with one punch and put him away as well...This isn't some 'brag' but just personal experience with how people don't disable themselves through fear and perception.It's very important. Musashi spoke of going into battle with no expectations of winning or losing but to do one's best with each situation...because fear can suck 60-80% of your energy and blind you to things happening around you.
So...in a sense that nutshell's my view on knowedge of the science assisting in the recoil issue. Of course it would be foolish of me not to agree with you that some people are not built to easily cope with that accelerating stock but by the same token....making a bridge of your self in your stance (such as widespread feet)kind of makes a self-fulfilling perception. Shooting is about relaxation....allowing the body to dissipate the recoil energy in stages using all of the body...relaxed, absorbent. The arm muscles can hold the rifle tightly enough into the shoulder to stop there being a sudden acceleration INTO the shoulder...and most I see seat the stock incorrectly. unfortunately the way some people place scopes puts their face in a posiiton to get punisnment. Using your face to stop rifle movement is going to hurt.
"So...in a sense that nutshellï½´s my view on knowledge of the science in the recoil issue?"
I have two personal rifles.
1) Customed stocked .500 M.D.M ultra mag bolt-gun firing a .50 cal projectile of 450 gn weight at 2400 fps from an 8.5lb rifle
2) Customed stocked .500 N.E double rifle firing a projectile weight of 475gn at 2300 fps from a 10.5lb rifle
The 10.5lb double kicks CONSIDERABLY more in felt recoil to the 8.5lb .500 M.D.M
Apply the science to that.
Explain to me how my "knowledge and understanding" of Newtons Law will help me in comming to terms with the recoil from my .500 N.E.
The other arm can be used as a slight brace in the opposite direction. The firing hand ffrom the wrist forward should be completely flexible and the rifle will then follow a pattern of movement which doesn't loosen one's teeth... and make a yoyo of ones cervical spine. What I am trying to say is that the body should become a apart of the shock absorbing extension of the whole rifle movement and with the science I clarified each person might(I hope) develop a new science appreciation within himself which makes his use of large calibres or a 12G conform to his body and conversely.
The first time I fired both barrels of a 12 gauge simultaneously it was accidental. I'd been warned about the pain it caused....but because I did it without fear, without submitting myself to perception I realised straight way "that double barrel recoil stuff is all b/s!!"... I was 16 then an weighed about 9 stone.Fear and Perception see the mind and body trying to solve problems before they arise instead.
That's one reason why so many people do their best shooting or months at thsie first clay shoot...they follow instinct. Once the experts start tensing you up with do/don't do and worse, give different instructions one from the other you have periods of utter stagnation...you longer move freely, you no longer istinctively calculate, you use someone's method and that tenses you...and how many move away from that anality to become experts...? know a few.
Where I think we are meeting, Paul, is at the critical point of you list of perceptions...which do exist and do have the effects you said....and my reflecions on Newton's science which in bringing enlightment opens individuals entities to becoming less anal about the way they interact with the firearm and allow their body to understand and pare away unreasonable fears.. Does that clarify a bit more Paul..or become less seemingly head-on? Cheers
No need for clarification, at least not on my part. If you re-read some of your own writings in this response you will see you yourself have also listed fear, tension on grip, stance, expereinceas REAL factors affecting perceived recoil.
Having the knowledge of how and why two identical .458ï½´s of the same manufacturer, firing the same load will react according to Newtons law is redundant.
Knowing that one of those .458ï½´s can be tamed with a number of, or all of combined, the factors listed may be more practical and usable to users of these forums.
Cheers,
Paul.
I really like the 416 and fell in love. With more practice I think I could ease into more shooting and like it even more. Is it normal to shoot ten rounds or less or is my weenie factor kicking in? You 416 guys chime in. In bolt guns for Africa I love the 375 H&H but this Rigby is getting my attention. My plan is to shoot enough to get it zeroed well then get my a$$ off the bench.
I know what I can tolerate and sometimes it defies even my own logic. 
