First Safari - I’ll hunt plains game - What caliber?

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I got my first gun when I was 10. It was a Benjiman 177 air rifle. I soon learnt that I had to get within 10m and shoot rabbits in the head to prevent them from getting down the hole before they died. That gun taught me how to stalk.

Then I moved up to a Browning 22LR BAR. I learnt that with correct bullet placement and a 40gr solid I could take medium sized game.

BUT
Animals are not static targets, Unfortunately I learnt the hard way, when they moved as I squeezed off the shot. Vitals not penetrated and no blood trail. I found 1 such animal 2 weeks later in a very bad way but still alive - never again.

My cousin had his 358NM stolen last year. He has been using a 30/06 in the interim. He shot a young Sambar stag with the 30/06, it ran at least 50m to get into a gully full of blackberries. The local farmer had 1080 baits out to control dingoes and foxes so he could not use his dogs to find the deer. Luckily his has just found himself another 358NM. 358NM has alot more margin for error than a 30/06.

PS. I do give a shit about other peoples opinions and experience - how else do we learn.

@BlueFlyer
If he wanted a good sambar rifle I have a lovely 35 Whelen AI that I'm willing to part with for a reasonable price. Complete with formed brass and dies.
Bob

 

[BlueFlyer]

If he wanted a good sambar rifle I have a lovely 35 Whelen AI

Thanks Bob, his permit to purchase has come through for the 358NM.
I personally use 9.3X64B on Sambar. Agree the 35Whelen is great for Sambar and all large game.

 

[NIGHTHAWK]

Lots would. You need to branch out.

Also your quote had absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about. It’s stone cold fact that people shoot smaller calibers better than larger ones. Thats not the end all be all of hunting. But it stands as fact.

A shooting instructor would be 1000 times better to verify that than a ph.

You’re slipping a bit.

“375Fox said:
Shooting instructors shoot at paper. PHs hunt animals. If I want advice on shooting tight groups at 1000 yards I’d go to shooting instructor. If I wanted advice on caliber selection for hunting I’ll ask a PH. You’ll need to look hard to find the PH who will recommend a 243 over a 300 for large plains game.”

It’s interesting to note that I had two PH’s (Henk my PH and the concession owner) on this recent hunt in the Free States request that I shoot my Roan, Lechwe, and Barbary Ram with a .243. And that request wasn’t a challenge, just a matter of assessing the situation and advising on their experience. Even though I had my .375H&H available, but not with us at that moment. I’m not the least bit recoil shy or sensitive with my .375H&H. **The concession owner said the average kill shots on Springbok and Blesbok was 4 shots! He also said it was very common for hunters to hit or nick legs, gut shots, flat out missing, and occasionally hit horn! Most of these shots are 275 yards or better. He also said the record was 22 shots at a Blesbok; wounding it several times. I didn’t ask for details…

I’ve attended several long range shooting schools and rung the 2,000 yard target, in progression from 400 yards, on two different occasions and the mile target on 2 other occasions with my custom 300 RUM hunting rifle. I’ve also attended the advanced school, where you shoot every animal target (real scale) at different angles, cross canyons, in wind and sometimes rain, out to 1,500 yards. The long range shooting schools I’ve attended require prone shooting. Always at elevation and never flat shooting; except to set 100 yard zero’s.

I’m not challenging either of your opinions or experience, just providing that in my experience, a well practiced hunter and a well placed shot, will result in good kill shots with what some will assume “too small a caliber”…

For the record, I don’t like to target shoot at the bench. Only to validate that my own custom loads are shooting where I expect them too. I don’t experiment much with load development either. I go with what I know works.

I also load and shoot primarily Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets in everything except my 300 RUM, which uses a Hybrid Berger Hunting VLD bullet in 210 grain. Yes, I’ve killed several elk with that bullet out to 350 yards… Kills them dead too. I do have some Barnes LRX bullets that I want to develop for that 300 RUM. Just need to check required spin rate…

If I only had one rifle to bring to Africa hunting PG, it would be a 7MM REM MAG. Because I’ve taken a lot of PG with it, including a 1 shot kill on an Eland. I know… “It’s a Magnum”

 

[375Fox]

Lots would. You need to branch out.

Also your quote had absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about. It’s stone cold fact that people shoot smaller calibers better than larger ones. Thats not the end all be all of hunting. But it stands as fact.

A shooting instructor would be 1000 times better to verify that than a ph.

You’re slipping a bit.

I read your comments. You don’t think a 300 win offers anything on a 243. Thankfully most disagree based on both theory and experience. Your theories seem to be predicated that you will flinch on all calibers but less so with smaller calibers.

 

[375Fox]

“375Fox said:
Shooting instructors shoot at paper. PHs hunt animals. If I want advice on shooting tight groups at 1000 yards I’d go to shooting instructor. If I wanted advice on caliber selection for hunting I’ll ask a PH. You’ll need to look hard to find the PH who will recommend a 243 over a 300 for large plains game.”

It’s interesting to note that I had two PH’s (Henk my PH and the concession owner) on this recent hunt in the Free States request that I shoot my Roan, Lechwe, and Barbary Ram with a .243. And that request wasn’t a challenge, just a matter of assessing the situation and advising on their experience. Even though I had my .375H&H available, but not with us at that moment. I’m not the least bit recoil shy or sensitive with my .375H&H. **The concession owner said the average kill shots on Springbok and Blesbok was 4 shots! He also said it was very common for hunters to hit or nick legs, gut shots, flat out missing, and occasionally hit horn! Most of these shots are 275 yards or better. He also said the record was 22 shots at a Blesbok; wounding it several times. I didn’t ask for details…

I’ve attended several long range shooting schools and rung the 2,000 yard target, in progression from 400 yards, on two different occasions and the mile target on 2 other occasions with my custom 300 RUM hunting rifle. I’ve also attended the advanced school, where you shoot every animal target (real scale) at different angles, cross canyons, in wind and sometimes rain, out to 1,500 yards. The long range shooting schools I’ve attended require prone shooting. Always at elevation and never flat shooting; except to set 100 yard zero’s.

I’m not challenging either of your opinions or experience, just providing that in my experience, a well practiced hunter and a well placed shot, will result in good kill shots with what some will assume “too small a caliber”…

For the record, I don’t like to target shoot at the bench. Only to validate that my own custom loads are shooting where I expect them too. I don’t experiment much with load development either. I go with what I know works.

I also load and shoot primarily Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets in everything except my 300 RUM, which uses a Hybrid Berger Hunting VLD bullet in 210 grain. Yes, I’ve killed several elk with that bullet out to 350 yards… Kills them dead too. I do have some Barnes LRX bullets that I want to develop for that 300 RUM. Just need to check required spin rate…

If I only had one rifle to bring to Africa hunting PG, it would be a 7MM REM MAG. Because I’ve taken a lot of PG with it, including a 1 shot kill on an Eland. I know… “It’s a Magnum”

I can see that depending on the PH, farm, and situation. A PH has more reason to trust his own rifle than many first time clients to Africa on very precise shots like that. I’d suspect his recommendation was also due to the scope he had on the rifle. I do stand by my comments though. You found the exception. That 243 in the free state would not be an ideal situation on a kudu bull’s shoulder in brush country. Most PHs I’ve hunted with have personal medium rifles in 270 Win, 308, 30/06 because they work across a range of animals and shot opportunities and ammo is readily available.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I can see that depending on the PH, farm, and situation. A PH has more reason to trust his own rifle than many first time clients to Africa on very precise shots like that. I’d suspect his recommendation was also due to the scope he had on the rifle. I do stand by my comments though. You found the exception. That 243 in the free state would not be an ideal situation on a kudu bull’s shoulder in brush country. Most PHs I’ve hunted with have personal medium rifles in 270 Win, 308, 30/06 because they work across a range of animals and shot opportunities and ammo is readily available.

@375Fox
My PH shit 2 leopard with a 25-06. He is a excellent shot and bushman. Would he let a client use the same on leopard. No. He doesn't know what they are like so would expect them to use a more appropriate calibre they can handle well
Bob

 

[mark-hunter]

In many of such discussions, there is always one bit of information missing.
With all those calibers colloquially described by bigger caliber preferers as sub performing, and which undoubtedly can kill with well placed shots, how much wounding and uncovered game does actually happen in the field with them?
Hunters will never brag about it, and outfitters do not advertise about it.
But some input would be welcome. (PH welcome to join in discussion)

In plains game hunting I generally vote for calibers starting from 30-06 and above, I prefer 300 class, and above, with 338 class even better and up to 9.3 or 375..
I have doubts in anything less. But this is more like my feeling, or my personal preference based on observation during my 4 safaris till now. I cannot say for fact to support with numbers, or foot pounds energy facts.

I do shoot long range at paper targets, and I hunt.
Target practise makes better shooter - I agree for that.
But I disagree this range skill to make up for smaller caliber, which could proof inadequate on marginal shot.

There is no realistic reason to go undergunned on a PG safari.
Why?
If we at home can choose from 243 - 30-06 - 300 Win Mag - 338 Win Mag - or 375 H&H and anything in between, and can take anything from available inventory, why go to Africa with a minimum at hand? Why?

 

[spike.t]

@375Fox
My PH shit 2 leopard with a 25-06. He is a excellent shot and bushman. Would he let a client use the same on leopard. No. He doesn't know what they are like so would expect them to use a more appropriate calibre they can handle well
Bob

Bob....what weight were the shits out of the 25-06?...and were they soft or dehydrated dry solids?.....

 

[Deepfork]

If we at home can choose from 243 - 30-06 - 300 Win Mag - 338 Win Mag - or 375 H&H and anything in between, and can take anything from available inventory, why go to Africa with a minimum at hand? Why?

This is what it comes down to for me.

 

[mdwest]

@375Fox
My PH shit 2 leopard

That had to hurt… even if defanged and declawed… those are still pretty big animals traveling through a comparatively small space…

 

[MS 9x56]

Please. You haven’t hunted much if you haven’t had an animal run after shooting it. Sometimes they drop instantly. Sometimes they won’t. Anyone here being honest would verify that.

Daisy you misunderstood me. I have had them run but never several hundred yards. Even well hit animals will run, but usually not out of sight unless the brush is very thick.

 

[Fryeguy]

What do they tell people that shoot them with a 30/06 and they run several hundred yards away?

Well I don’t know until it happens. My guess is to bring a 375 hahahaha. I think his point was, the hole was small and it didn’t bleed much out. Just a few specks, even thou it was a pass thru. They want a bigger hole for blood, and a 308 with 180’s isn’t that much more recoil over a 6.5 with 140’s, especially using a suppressor. Kevin Robertsons book the perfect shot has a great section about bullet frontal area. It’s a great read, even thou in his book it’s more related to bigger bore stuff. I used a 300win mag my first trip, expected what I experienced shooting stuff in USA, and when animals reacted like they hadn’t even been hit was a bit different for me, as everything I’ve ever hit with it here reacted to the hit, even if they did run afterwards. I left Africa knowing I wouldn’t come back without a bigger gun. I use a 9.3x62 now, and love it.

If OP selection of 3, the 30 cals to me would be my choices, especially for the bigger animals. Every year I’ve been back over, guys in camp kill all those animals with .308 win, 300wsm and up, consistently, many with one shot. There was a couple this year using a 7prc and 28 nosler, both with heavy bullets that were tough construction and they did well, very well.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Lots would. You need to branch out.

Also your quote had absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about. It’s stone cold fact that people shoot smaller calibers better than larger ones. Thats not the end all be all of hunting. But it stands as fact.

A shooting instructor would be 1000 times better to verify that than a ph.

You’re slipping a bit.

Avtually, that is exactly what we were talking about.

 

[Daisy]

I can see that depending on the PH, farm, and situation. A PH has more reason to trust his own rifle than many first time clients to Africa on very precise shots like that. I’d suspect his recommendation was also due to the scope he had on the rifle. I do stand by my comments though. You found the exception. That 243 in the free state would not be an ideal situation on a kudu bull’s shoulder in brush country. Most PHs I’ve hunted with have personal medium rifles in 270 Win, 308, 30/06 because they work across a range of animals and shot opportunities and ammo is readily available.

Already lots on this thread disagreeing with you my man. The idea that “most if not all” PH would recommend larger calibers is antiquated and wrong

 

[Daisy]

Daisy you misunderstood me. I have had them run but never several hundred yards. Even well hit animals will run, but usually not out of sight unless the brush is very thick.

Ok. Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Daisy]

Of the four cartridges (375 ruger, 338 Lapua, 30-06 and 6.5prc) my ph on my upcoming elk hunt recommended the 6.5prc.

From him today.

“6.5 PRC is s great Elk gun. Put a suppressor on never will spook the Elk again after a shoot.”

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I have that same experience in the game field with a totally different opinion. That’s how opinions go.

You would be surprised at the PHs that use a 22-250 for their personal plains game hunting. They are mostly placating to wanna be boys that play big on safari. Where I live I see many driving jacked up at4 trucks that haven’t ever been off road. They would probably say they need the extra horse power.

Seriously arguing that someone isn’t man enough if they shoot a smaller caliber is laughable

Who said anything about anyone being man enough to shoot anything? I said a.larger caliber hit is going to be more effective than the same hit with a smaller caliber. It's simple physics and really no.argument can be made. If anyone cannot shoot an adequate cartridge for the game they need to practice more, or hunt smaller animals. Anyone that says they have never made a bad shot while hunting is probably lying.

There are three parts to an effective rifle shot. The first and most important thing is placement. You must hit the animal in the correct spot, but that is not the only consideration. Then a hunter should use a cartridge with an adequate diameter and weight for the game. The last part is the bullet construction. Unless a solid bullet is required (elephant) it must upset quickly to transfer energy to tissue. Then it must hold together for penetration. If you have all of those things most cartridges will work, but what about a marginal hit that may not be immediately fatal? We have all.made them. I once shot a kudu bull that was following a cow. As he came out of the brush instead of following straight he turned and my shot hit at back by the hind leg and ranged forward. I was shooting a .30-06 with 180 grain Partition. The bullet went through paunch, liver and went into the chest. He went about 100 yards and stopped, still on his feet when we saw him and I put another round broadside behind the shoulder. A heavier bullet would have finished the kudu before we found him again. A lighter bullet from a smaller cartridge, say a .243 or 6.5 CM, would not have made it to the chest, and we may not have recovered the animal. After that I took a .300 Win Mag with 200 grain Accubonds to Africa. Nothing went more than a couple of steps after the shot.

Those PH's that use a.22-250 or even a .223 to take smaller PG are culling, shooting camp.meat or leopard bait and are taking head shots. Most people aren't going to do that on safari or when deer hunting at home.

 

[Daisy]

Who said anything about anyone being man enough to shoot anything? I said a.larger caliber hit is going to be more effective than the same hit with a smaller caliber. It's simple physics and really no.argument can be made. If anyone cannot shoot an adequate cartridge for the game they need to practice more, or hunt smaller animals. Anyone that says they have never made a bad shot while hunting is probably lying.

There are three parts to an effective rifle shot. The first and most important thing is placement. You must hit the animal in the correct spot, but that is not the only consideration. Then a hunter should use a cartridge with an adequate diameter and weight for the game. The last part is the bullet construction. Unless a solid bullet is required (elephant) it must upset quickly to transfer energy to tissue. Then it must hold together for penetration. If you have all of those things most cartridges will work, but what about a marginal hit that may not be immediately fatal? We have all.made them. I once shot a kudu bull that was following a cow. As he came out of the brush instead of following straight he turned and my shot hit at back by the hind leg and ranged forward. I was shooting a .30-06 with 180 grain Partition. The bullet went through paunch, liver and went into the chest. He went about 100 yards and stopped, still on his feet when we saw him and I put another round broadside behind the shoulder. A heavier bullet would have finished the kudu before we found him again. A lighter bullet from a smaller cartridge, say a .243 or 6.5 CM, would not have made it to the chest, and we may not have recovered the animal. After that I took a .300 Win Mag with 200 grain Accubonds to Africa. Nothing went more than a couple of steps after the shot.

Those PH's that use a.22-250 or even a .223 to take smaller PG are culling, shooting camp.meat or leopard bait and are taking head shots. Most people aren't going to do that on safari or when deer hunting at home.

Most people do that on deer at home. Many more people shoot 6.5, 6, 223, 243 on deer now than the larger calibers.

The larger calibers are pretty much relegated to a few folks here.

All that said. I like large calibers too. They are fun to shoot. But in 6’5 230.

The smaller calibers do as well, or better, in the vast majority of cases.

 

[NIGHTHAWK]

I can see that depending on the PH, farm, and situation. A PH has more reason to trust his own rifle than many first time clients to Africa on very precise shots like that. I’d suspect his recommendation was also due to the scope he had on the rifle. I do stand by my comments though. You found the exception. That 243 in the free state would not be an ideal situation on a kudu bull’s shoulder in brush country. Most PHs I’ve hunted with have personal medium rifles in 270 Win, 308, 30/06 because they work across a range of animals and shot opportunities and ammo is readily available.

Good point,

I used my .375H&H to hunt the Steenbok in the bushveld, just never had a clear shot. Although, as a practice, I don’t like obstructed shots or punching through brush.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bob....what weight were the shits out of the 25-06?...and were they soft or dehydrated dry solids?.....

@spike.t
Should have been shot, big fingers, small keyboard and not proof reading.
If the shot placement went south I think the OH would have shit himself tho.
Bob