FN Commercial Mauser problem

[Grumpy gumpy]

Try a brass drift, less likely to damage anything . There are at least three places I can see where you can get direct access to the bottom metal
Gumpy

 

[baxterb]

Quite an interesting issue.

Where does the bolt stick when it is together? The second the bolt is lifted? Half way back? 3/4 way back?

Have you sharpied the bolt/racways and cycled it when the gun is together, then done the same when it is apart to compare wear marks?

The fixed mag well is troubling to me, but before I did anything I’d want to know where things were off.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Looking again at your images It appears the mag box at some point was broken free from the trigger guard plate. The box and trigger guard should be machined from one piece. Note the jagged crack between box and the guard plate. That should not be there. I suspect someone broke the box from the guard plate when they tried to separate the two frozen in the action. My guess is they tried to push the bottom metal out by driving against the bottom of the box or pushing out the action screw sleeves from the top. Either could separate the mag box from trigger guard. Then, rather than replace the bottom metal the bubba-smith simply tried to fix everything with bedding fiberglass. Result was box glued above the guard plate and too high.

Whether the broken bottom metal was the problem or not, I suggest you plan on replacing it.

 

[rdog]

Do not use a steel punch on the bottom metal, use a brass , copper , aluminum or even a hard plastic one when you remove it scrape away some of the bedding epoxy to give it a little clearance, when fitted up there should be about 2mm clearance between the bottom metal & the action, if you have a chest food freezer put the stock with the bottom metal in it over night freeze it & then try to tap it out,
good luck, most of the issues can be fixed with care & the right tools. the shim we are talking about should go under the tang on top not under the bottom metal.

 

[Nhoro]

I suggest heating the metal before you try any removal. A commercial clothes iron or soldering iron works or else heating a flat iron bar and heating the magazine plate will loosen any epoxy. Then you can use lamp black ( soot from a candle) on the action and fit it in the stock to see where it is touching. With the dark wood, you may need to use white correction fluid.

 

[Papa72]

Do not use a steel punch on the bottom metal, use a brass , copper , aluminum or even a hard plastic one when you remove it scrape away some of the bedding epoxy to give it a little clearance, when fitted up there should be about 2mm clearance between the bottom metal & the action, if you have a chest food freezer put the stock with the bottom metal in it over night freeze it & then try to tap it out,
good luck, most of the issues can be fixed with care & the right tools. the shim we are talking about should go under the tang on top not under the bottom metal.

+1 on the freezer trick for 24 hours. Saw a vid on YT and the freezer trick worked for that guy.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Do not use a steel punch on the bottom metal, use a brass , copper , aluminum or even a hard plastic one when you remove it scrape away some of the bedding epoxy to give it a little clearance, when fitted up there should be about 2mm clearance between the bottom metal & the action, if you have a chest food freezer put the stock with the bottom metal in it over night freeze it & then try to tap it out,
good luck, most of the issues can be fixed with care & the right tools. the shim we are talking about should go under the tang on top not under the bottom metal.

It looks like the bottom metal is pooched anyway. I see a crack at the forward end of OP's mag box that should not be there. Wondering if the crack is all the way around. If so, then I suspect he will not have anything to salvage even if he could get the bottom metal out in one piece ... or rather two pieces.

The back end of military clone bottom metal mag box is a separate piece like OP's. See the above photo I downloaded from a site selling them. I'm guessing Mauser made them that way for easier machining. An open end box would be easier to machine than digging out a hole.

The freezer idea is a good one. I would try that before heat. In any event, I will be surprised if the bottom metal is any good even if he can get it out without further damage. The good news is it's a Mauser and replacement should not be hard to find.

 

[csmiffy]

Re reading this. You say the screws are really snug in those pillar type sleeves?
I would open them out a little so they have clearance.
You are sure the bedding is done properly as in everything touches everywhere at the same time?
I have a BSA P14 sporter that's been bedded and it's not right at the back.
If you do up the front screw it lifts the back of the action a tiny bit.
Needs dremelling out and redoing.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Re reading this. You say the screws are really snug in those pillar type sleeves?
I would open them out a little so they have clearance.
You are sure the bedding is done properly as in everything touches everywhere at the same time?
I have a BSA P14 sporter that's been bedded and it's not right at the back.
If you do up the front screw it lifts the back of the action a tiny bit.
Needs dremelling out and redoing.

Clearly something is amiss with the action not fitting in the stock properly. Hoping that free floating the barrel removes the tension but I'm not optimistic. He should do that in any event. My guess is the magazine box is too high. If it's butting against the receiver, it should be trimmed down a bit. Should be a very narrow gap between the two. Not too much or follower could get snagged.

I ran into this very issue when I bought a very nice second hand stock for the 404 I built on Czech 98 Mauser. The vendor sent me photos of an H&R action he tried to fit in the stock but tang was sticking way up in the air. It was a good price so I took a chance that I'd find a way to make it work. The stock was obviously for an African gun. No forward sling swivel ( = formerly had a barrel mounted sling swivel) and wide barrel channel ( = thumper caliber). But my action had the same problem. I quickly determined the gunmaker made the original rifle for someone with small hands. The wrist was much narrower than military design. To make it fit, I began by removing all bedding material. Then I had to shorten the rear action screw bit by bit to pull the tang down to wood. The screw had to be shortened so it didn't protrude through the tang into track for cocking piece sear. Eventually I was able seat the tang into its stock slot but then the bolt wouldn't close. I determined the magazine box in the Swift-Blackburn 416 Rem bottom metal I was using was too tall. Using my Dremel tool I carefully removed metal from the top edges of back half of the sides of box until the bolt closed (I could see a small gap between receiver and front half of box so I knew the pressure was at back half). Didn't require removing much metal to get the bolt cycling freely.

The curious thing about this second hand stock is I'm sure it was made for a heavy caliber rifle ... but no crossbolts. Thinning the wrist made it weaker but no reinforcement there either. Cracks were already starting inside so I rebedded the stock ahead of and behind the magazine box. I DID NOT bed the box! Some bubba-smith had hacked a lot of wood out trying to add an aftermarket trigger so I filled things in there with J-B Weld bedding. Then I added crossbolts and a steel reinforcement pin down through the wrist from end of tang slot.

I would not worry too much about relieving the action screw tubes. This is only a 7mm Mauser. Recoil isn't severe. Tight fit shouldn't cause problems.

 

[csmiffy]

"I would not worry too much about relieving the action screw tubes. This is only a 7mm Mauser. Recoil isn't severe. Tight fit shouldn't cause problems."
yeah i wasn't worried about splitting things, but sometimes it doesn't take much of things touching to make things shoot funny.
Ive heard a few things about Howas. There are heaps in NZ and there is something about the bottom of the recoli lug. if its touching it shoots like junk. Something like that?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

"I would not worry too much about relieving the action screw tubes. This is only a 7mm Mauser. Recoil isn't severe. Tight fit shouldn't cause problems."
yeah i wasn't worried about splitting things, but sometimes it doesn't take much of things touching to make things shoot funny.
Ive heard a few things about Howas. There are heaps in NZ and there is something about the bottom of the recoli lug. if its touching it shoots like junk. Something like that?

I'm not familiar with Howa. Not sure I've ever held one in my hands. But it really does not make sense to make room in Mauser action screw sleeves. If anything, that would possibly provide more room for the action to move in the stock which would not only compromise accuracy but also put the stock at risk of failure (cracking). It is obviously best to spread the stress of recoil as much as possible within the stock. This is the idea behind bedding. The more contact points, the more area for recoil stress to be transmitted to the stock. The shooter will still feel the recoil the same because he has only one point of contact transmitting recoil - the butt of stock. But the rifle stock can feel recoil at various points and the more the merrier. It's physics.

 

[csmiffy]

@Ontario Hunter apart from the screws (theory), agree 100% about the bedding.
Howas I believe are Weatherby Vanguards in the US I think. They make them for Weatherby

 

[spiska]

Alright, finally got an update for you. Took me longer than expected to get back to it. I appreciate everyone's help on this.

OH, thanks for providing all of that knowledge. Very, very helpful. Also, the mag isn't cracked. I think what you're seeing is a cut for the detachable bottom metal to hitch into when secured. It confused me too. When I got everything out it was all intact and a one-piece mag box. No signs of cracking, warping or damage. The line in the front is machined in there.

Grumpy, I appreciate the advice on the brass punch. I was about to go at it with a steel roll pin punch and I'm glad I read your post before proceeding. I tapped the bottom metal out and it came out pretty easily, no freezing or heating needed.

rdog, I took your advice on the shim and cut two from an aluminum Pepsi can and punched a hole in them with a paper hole punch. When I reassembled the gun with the shims, no more binding! Got it torqued up appropriately.

Not sure if that's a long term solution, but it worked! I assume there's either too much bedding material toward the front, or too little at the rear. When in the stock, but not bolted down, if I applied some pressure on the barrel end, the rear would pop up a small amount. But that shim evened everything out. And all the metal is level with the stock, not proud of the wood after shimming.

Can't thank y'all enough. Hope to get a scope on it and take it to the range soon.

 

[spiska]

@Ontario Hunter apart from the screws (theory), agree 100% about the bedding.
Howas I believe are Weatherby Vanguards in the US I think. They make them for Weatherby

I have a few Howas. They're excellent guns, especially for the money. And they come with threaded barrels. All of mine excellent shooters. But they did require me to put about 20 rounds through the barrel to break in before they grouped. Their actions/bolts are superior to most mid-priced rifles. But I don't love their detachable magazines. They don't seat well and they feel like they aren't very sturdy.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Alright, finally got an update for you. Took me longer than expected to get back to it. I appreciate everyone's help on this.

OH, thanks for providing all of that knowledge. Very, very helpful. Also, the mag isn't cracked. I think what you're seeing is a cut for the detachable bottom metal to hitch into when secured. It confused me too. When I got everything out it was all intact and a one-piece mag box. No signs of cracking, warping or damage. The line in the front is machined in there.

Grumpy, I appreciate the advice on the brass punch. I was about to go at it with a steel roll pin punch and I'm glad I read your post before proceeding. I tapped the bottom metal out and it came out pretty easily, no freezing or heating needed.

rdog, I took your advice on the shim and cut two from an aluminum Pepsi can and punched a hole in them with a paper hole punch. When I reassembled the gun with the shims, no more binding! Got it torqued up appropriately.

Not sure if that's a long term solution, but it worked! I assume there's either too much bedding material toward the front, or too little at the rear. When in the stock, but not bolted down, if I applied some pressure on the barrel end, the rear would pop up a small amount. But that shim evened everything out. And all the metal is level with the stock, not proud of the wood after shimming.

Can't thank y'all enough. Hope to get a scope on it and take it to the range soon.

Glad to be wrong ... in this case anyway.

An aluminum shim might not be the best long term solution. Steel in contact with aluminum can produce corrosion. I would suggest removing the action (not bottom metal) and counting the turns on screws as you do. Then use some JB Weld to bed the tang. Replace action back into the stock using the counted turns on screws to tighten down and let bedding set. Use liberal amounts of freeing agent on tang and screw so they don't get stuck in the stock.

 

[spiska]

Agreed on the galling potential. I'll either bed or if I can locate a brass shim thin enough, may swap it out. Either way, I want to see if it actually shoots before I go any further.

It came with a set of Leupold bases with the windage adjustable rear and the twist-in front base. Not sure if I'm happy with that. Seems like a lot of extra moving pieces for a scope mount and I don't know if I have the tools to make sure those rings are square. May swap them out for some Warne weaver bases instead.

 

[Rare Breed]

Look at how your magazine fits against the receiver. There should be a slight gap between the two. It sounds to me like your magazine is jammed against the receiver and when rear action screw is torqued down, the tang is bent slightly causing the bolt to drag in the track, specifically the cocking piece sear. I encountered this very issue when I dropped my 404 Mauser build into a used stock that was designed with a very thin wrist. I had to trim a very little bit of metal from sides of top of magazine box and also had to shorten the rear action screw. Ah ... look for that too. Is the rear action screw protruding through the hole into the track for cocking piece sear? Depends on what make of Mauser but this might be possible (not possible for my Springfield as the screw hole is not threaded all the way through the tang).

Also, look at the back end of the mag box. See the tab that extends up above the edges to guide cartridge rim to bolt face. Does it look shiny on top edge? That would indicate bolt is rubbing against it. This would be caused by box that is for whatever reason too short on sides. I think this unlikely but a possibility to check out.

If none of these are fixes, I suggest bedding the back end of the action and tang. Before bedding put the action back in the stock and slowly tighten the rear action screw a half turn at a time, counting turns until the bolt just starts to drag, then back off enough to free things up. That's where you want to tighten screw after bedding is added.

Try tapping lightly on top edges of the mag box with rubber hammer to see if the bottom metal can be shook loose. Hopefully. Don't beat it up.

although Ontario Hunter can drive me crazy with some of his posts, he does know problems with firearms given he has built a few. I would respect his opinion on something like this