Greener crossbolt third-bite lock behaving whimsical

[Roland Tembo]

I always thought of third-bite locks to be a precious add-on to "regular" break open gun builds. I never thought of them like yet another possible issue while reloading the firearm on a dangerous game hunt, but...

I recently got me a Merkel 140A double rifle, gun comes with a Greener crossbolt. Just by looking at this thing you can tell it's fairly new and not abused. Previous owner (who is second owner and friend with first buyer) told me the gun probably fired less than 50 rounds overall.

I know brand new gun joints are stiffer than well worn vintage guns, and probably this is the reason why my other guns with third bite locks have never give me issues. I've seen footage where some owners had to gently bring the break open lever in full lock position on a new gun... but my Merkel third bite is inconsistent at the moment:

- closing the gun without chambering snap caps >> third-bite locks soft and round, like a pussycat
- closing the gun chambering a snap cap in left barrell >> third-bite locks soft and round, like a pussycat
- closing the gun chambering a snap cap in both barrells or just into right barrell >> you can tell the under barrells are locked but the Greener struggles

I was instructed to never vigorously shut close a break action gun, but my third-bite won't lock with rounds in both chambers if I don't use some amount of force. Both chambers look pretty neat without buildup residues. After abundant lubrication I did some open-close-reopen process and seems to be getting better, but I also noticed some markings around the crossbolt hole, like the whole mechanism is yet to break-in. So now, shutting the gun close, the crossbolt 50% of the time goes home and the other 50% is almost there but still needs me pushing with the thumb further down to really get there.
I'd like to know if anyone here had similar experience.

The thing I found most curious about this is previous owner went on a tusker hunt with this gun... I'd never put my steps on such hunting ground with a gun not completely broke-in and 100% realiable after a reload.

Here follow two pictures, you might be able to see the breaking-in markings? Looks like the crossbolt is chunking some metal in the south-eastern portion of the Greener hole. Do your Greener guns look like this too? Is this normal wear or something does not look right?

 

[Shako Badhan]

I have never owned a Merkel double, but I have owned a number of doubles over the years with a Greener Crossbolt. What you’re describing is fairly normal from my experience, even on vintage examples.

As long as the crossbolt is engaged it does not matter if the bolt is protruding a small amount when the rifle is closed, from my understanding. In regards to the ware that is also common in my experience, some vintage guns require metal to be added when being put back on face.

 

[Russ16]

I have never owned a Merkel double, but I have owned a number of doubles over the years with a Greener Crossbolt. What you’re describing is fairly normal from my experience, even on vintage examples.

As long as the crossbolt is engaged it does not matter if the bolt is protruding a small amount when the rifle is closed, from my understanding. In regards to the ware that is also common in my experience, some vintage guns require metal to be added when being put back on face.

This is exactly right.

 

[rookhawk]

I always thought of third-bite locks to be a precious add-on to "regular" break open gun builds. I never thought of them like yet another possible issue while reloading the firearm on a dangerous game hunt, but...

I recently got me a Merkel 140A double rifle, gun comes with a Greener crossbolt. Just by looking at this thing you can tell it's fairly new and not abused. Previous owner (who is second owner and friend with first buyer) told me the gun probably fired less than 50 rounds overall.

I know brand new gun joints are stiffer than well worn vintage guns, and probably this is the reason why my other guns with third bite locks have never give me issues. I've seen footage where some owners had to gently bring the break open lever in full lock position on a new gun... but my Merkel third bite is inconsistent at the moment:

- closing the gun without chambering snap caps >> third-bite locks soft and round, like a pussycat
- closing the gun chambering a snap cap in left barrell >> third-bite locks soft and round, like a pussycat
- closing the gun chambering a snap cap in both barrells or just into right barrell >> you can tell the under barrells are locked but the Greener struggles

I was instructed to never vigorously shut close a break action gun, but my third-bite won't lock with rounds in both chambers if I don't use some amount of force. Both chambers look pretty neat without buildup residues. After abundant lubrication I did some open-close-reopen process and seems to be getting better, but I also noticed some markings around the crossbolt hole, like the whole mechanism is yet to break-in. So now, shutting the gun close, the crossbolt 50% of the time goes home and the other 50% is almost there but still needs me pushing with the thumb further down to really get there.
I'd like to know if anyone here had similar experience.

The thing I found most curious about this is previous owner went on a tusker hunt with this gun... I'd never put my steps on such hunting ground with a gun not completely broke-in and 100% realiable after a reload.

Here follow two pictures, you might be able to see the breaking-in markings? Looks like the crossbolt is chunking some metal in the south-eastern portion of the Greener hole. Do your Greener guns look like this too? Is this normal wear or something does not look right?


View attachment 650779View attachment 650780

If you were here, I'd prescribe this:

1.) I'd use stones on the edge of the crossbolt hole on the barrels to deburr them.

2.) I'd use Kroil (thinnest oil) to lube the crossbolt excessively.

3.) I'd have you do 2-3 rounds of skeet using a handicap trap load that has horrific recoil.

4.) We'd then drink beer, clean the whole gun, and deburr some more if its still and issue.

The gun needs minor tweaking and a lot of shells. Remember, a 1-1/8 ounce load has 50% more recoil than a 1 ounce load. It's that rare time where I recommend accelerating wear by using stout loads to get that gun worn in.

 

[Russ16]

That crossbody not closing is because the gun itself is tight. It might not be hanging up on the crossbolt itself. Even guns with just under lugs you’ll often notice the lever is fairly far right when closed if they are new. When a crossbolt is present it is just more obvious. Shoot it plenty and it will close more fully.

 

[mooze]

in addition to the above, degrease the crossbolt. it may just be old gunk in there not letting it close well under strain

 

[VertigoBE]

Where did you read that a break open rifle should not be closed with intent?

Do you still have the problem when you close the action forcefully, like a snap action?

 

[Hammergun]

The good news is that the Greener bolt is properly fitted and actually engaging the rib extension. I agree with others that the gun just needs breaking in. I do close my vintage doubles gently but I am sure you won't damage a modern double by closing the gun firmly and letting the top lever spring drive the bolts home. When doing a quick reload while hunting you will want to just close the gun firmly, not slamming it closed. There is a difference. I think you should practice with the rifle just as you would use it in the field. Having a habit of closing it slowly or catching the brass may cost you in a tight spot. If it's your habit you will still do it while under pressure.

 

[Red Leg]

If you were here, I'd prescribe this:

1.) I'd use stones on the edge of the crossbolt hole on the barrels to deburr them.

2.) I'd use Kroil (thinnest oil) to lube the crossbolt excessively.

3.) I'd have you do 2-3 rounds of skeet using a handicap trap load that has horrific recoil.

4.) We'd then drink beer, clean the whole gun, and deburr some more if its still and issue.

The gun needs minor tweaking and a lot of shells. Remember, a 1-1/8 ounce load has 50% more recoil than a 1 ounce load. It's that rare time where I recommend accelerating wear by using stout loads to get that gun worn in.

Looks like it is a rifle. I agree with the light stoning (not filing!) of just the edges of the hole in the extension. Clean thoroughly, and oil lightly. Forego the skeet, and open and close 20 or thirty times with the snap caps or fired rounds. No need to pull the triggers. It is ok to close a double firmly (never slam one closed). When it is in the break in stage, and Merkels have a well earned reputation for being stiff when new, they can be particularly stubborn. This one is essentially new. That should clean it up.

 

[rookhawk]

Looks like it is a rifle. I agree with the light stoning (not filing!) of just the edges of the hole in the extension. Clean thoroughly, and oil lightly. Forego the skeet, and open and close 20 or thirty times with the snap caps or fired rounds. No need to pull the triggers. It is ok to close a double firmly (never slam one closed). When it is in the break in stage, and Merkels have a well earned reputation for being stiff when new, they can be particularly stubborn. This one is essentially new. That should clean it up.

What @Red Leg said. I'm running on 5 hours sleep and a double of bourbon. I don't know a shotgun from a double rifle at this hour. But yeah, it needs to be worked in. Stoning, opening, closing, shooting, lubricating, cleaning -> repeat.

 

[CoElkHunter]

What @Red Leg said. I'm running on 5 hours sleep and a double of bourbon. I don't know a shotgun from a double rifle at this hour. But yeah, it needs to be worked in. Stoning, opening, closing, shooting, lubricating, cleaning -> repeat.

At least it wasn't a double of Bundy. You'd be thinking a Ruger #1 was semi auto. LOL

 

[Roland Tembo]

Where did you read that a break open rifle should not be closed with intent?

Do you still have the problem when you close the action forcefully, like a snap action?

Can't quite remember anymore... I am around guns since I was a kid, at some point somebody must have told me to be gentle when closing break action guns.

Anyway, if I close this Merkel vigorously, the third bite locks just fine most of the times after some lubrication and exercise. And by vigorously I don't mean anything excessive.

Point is I don't need to use the same amount of force to have the third bite locked all the times with an empty chamber: the gun requires me to close the action forcefully only when I have a round in both chambers OR just into right barrell. Otherwise it requires virtually no effort at all.

And that's why I am wondering if this exercise I am doing by opening and closing multiple time with both snap caps in, which seems to be chunking some metal on a corner of the Greener hole, is good OR the gun should require always the same amount of effort to engage all the locks and actually I am ruining the third bite lock by wearing down some portion of the rib extention hole with this forceful exercise.

I don't have other Greener guns or double rifles, but I have a Westley Richards 12GA and a Cosmi 20GA break open shotguns with their own third bite locks. Both guns require the same amount of force to operate whether you're chambering rounds or not (but these are also well worn vintage guns too).

 

[375er]

Is it possible the groove in the right ejector is not identical to the left side? Perhaps the cartridge sits proud of the face on the right side causing extra tension on closing.

 

[rookhawk]

This is a common problem on tight, new guns and rifles. The problem goes away immediately in a shotgun because you can use it cheaply and frequently, loosening it up.

My Heym 470 had this problem and a bit of stone work and kroil, plus 50 rounds sorted it out 90%+ of the way. Another 100 rounds and it would have been completely sorted out.

This is a problem on tight new guns regardless of brand. I've seen it on $200k best London guns as well as $3000 AyA Spanish guns.

 

[375er]

This is a common problem on tight, new guns and rifles. The problem goes away immediately in a shotgun because you can use it cheaply and frequently, loosening it up.

My Heym 470 had this problem and a bit of stone work and kroil, plus 50 rounds sorted it out 90%+ of the way. Another 100 rounds and it would have been completely sorted out.

This is a problem on tight new guns regardless of brand. I've seen it on $200k best London guns as well as $3000 AyA Spanish guns.

Since it is such a problem for you I will take it off your hands.

 

[rookhawk]

Since it is such a problem for you I will take it off your hands.

Sadly, my best heym 470NE sold around a year ago. I still miss it, but I paid off my house so it was good use of funds. I have a new-to-me heym 470NE / 375HH. It's a nice gun of the same functionality, but its a shadow of my prior Heym cosmetically.

The current heym doesn't have a sticky crossbolt, but it probably was worked and shot in a lot more than my prior.

Kroil is the key, its thin enough to penetrate and lubricate these crossbolts that are super tight tolerances. I suspect this problem is more common in the modern era of EDM versus drilling and filing actions.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Since it closes perfectly without snap caps it is obvious that the snap cap flange bases are too thick. I also agree with @375er that the right hand flange recess may be a touch shallower than the left one. Try repeating the process with fired cases instead of the snap caps.

When I bought my snap caps for my 450/400 Heym the bases were too thick and I had to skim off a bit on the lathe.

 

[rookhawk]

Try repeating the process with fired cases instead of the snap caps.

Definitely.

 

[Roland Tembo]

Thanks to all your notions on this subject I feel relieved already.

I just have 50 rounds handloaded by someone else at the moment and still have to get me the reloading equipment to inspect each handload by myself.

I don't have fired brass to test at the moment neither I trust doing the break-open action gymnastic by chambering live rounds at home.

I guess I just gonna have to wait for now and see later on.

 

[Longwalker]

The snap caps are the problem! Or at least how the snap cap fits. Or else why would it close easily and completely with nothing in the right chamber? Your right chamber is likely a little "shallow" at the case rim recess, or there is a small bit of dirt in there, or the snap cap rim is just too thick as suggested by Kevin P. My Merkel 140AE had a tiny bit of rust on the ejector shaft ( internal, out of sight ) that caused a problem with lock up and ejection. Removing the ejector and cleaning it, polishing the shaft a bit, and re-lubing solved the problem.