Hierarchy Of Double Rifles - Where does the Verney-Carron Fit In?

[Aussie_Hunter]

You have a very nice rifle with your Merkel!!! Don’t let anyone tell you differently! I have owned one and its accuracy was second to none!!!

The Merkel I had for a couple of years was exceptionally accurate

 

[Northern Shooter]

The Merkel I had for a couple of years was exceptionally accurate

What ammo did it like?

 

[Altitude sickness]

My Merkel was very accurate also. I should have kept it and had JJ sort out the rear trigger.

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

What ammo did it like?

Handloads
Load for the Chapuis 470 I owned
Norma brass, Federal primers, Woodleigh 500 grain RNSN, 96 grains of AR2209 and a open cell foam filler. This load gave me a duplicate reading from both barrels of 2174fps and 0.7" at 50 metres

Load for the Merkel I had
Bertram brass, Federal primers, Woodleigh 500 grain RNSN, 95.5 grains of RL17 and a open cell foam filler. This load was right on 2150fps and provided the same accuracy as the above, 0.7" at 50 metres.

Hoping my new Verney likes the load I used in the Chapuis as I still have about 50 rounds loaded sitting in the ammo box.

 

[rookhawk]

Where would the likes of Rigby / Westley Richards / Purdey / etc sit in this Hierarchy?

They'd sit atop the list of vintage options, but judged one gun at a time. The metallurgy in a well serviced one is completely suitable for period-correct, wholly satisfactory original loads at 2075FPS out of a 24" barrel. They are not suited for being crammed full of 100+ grains of 4831, some monometal solid invented in the 21st century, etc.

If you intend to do vile, horrible things to a gun with odd powders and high tech bullets, the Heym sits on top of the durability pyramid. If you're going to follow traditional loading standards a vintage British double is far superior to the other options. This is based on original quality, fit and finish, balance, stock geometry, and how well they point.

 

[ingwe500nitroexpress]

Where would the likes of Rigby / Westley Richards / Purdey / etc sit in this Hierarchy?

They wouldn’t. The Hollands/Rigbys/Westleys/Purdeys/Jefferys are the pinnacle of gunmaking and leaps and bounds priced ahead of the makers listed here. Certainly so with wood and engraving which is reflected in cost, as well as prestige. I own a Holland, Purdey, and Jeffery, all doubles, as well as a Heym 89b. The Heym is leagues ahead of the other rifles mentioned here, but not even entering the same realm as my British doubles. And I’m certainly not taking anything away from a Heym or even a Kgun but they’re just in a different league from the English makers.

 

[kpoynter]

I’ll be honest…
I’ve never fully understood the differences of opinion on these….
It’s what you like.
I have a VC Azul and it’s absolutely beautiful and love it (.450/.400). Hunted it for the first time last year on Elephant, Buff, Hippo. It was awesome.
This is sort of like a Bino/optics discussion where one brand is double the price and the “glass” etc might b .1% better and the average person could tell one bit nor would it matter in the field.
Throw Sabatti out of the conversation…
The Safeties are different and not normal on a couple of these but what feels right to you when you feel one. Several of these are all comparable in quality, etc.
most of this stuff is hypothesizing about the .1% IMO. They are all quality…they are all well made by quality gunmakers.
I honestly have always thought some of this stuff is kind of cultish dialogue around rifles and we talk ourselves into whatever….

 

[Ericedwinbates]

Sabatti, deep at the bottom of the list. So deep in fact shouldn't even be on the list. I speak from experience.

 

[rookhawk]

I’ll be honest…
I’ve never fully understood the differences of opinion on these….
It’s what you like.
I have a VC Azul and it’s absolutely beautiful and love it (.450/.400). Hunted it for the first time last year on Elephant, Buff, Hippo. It was awesome.
This is sort of like a Bino/optics discussion where one brand is double the price and the “glass” etc might b .1% better and the average person could tell one bit nor would it matter in the field.
Throw Sabatti out of the conversation…
The Safeties are different and not normal on a couple of these but what feels right to you when you feel one. Several of these are all comparable in quality, etc.
most of this stuff is hypothesizing about the .1% IMO. They are all quality…they are all well made by quality gunmakers.
I honestly have always thought some of this stuff is kind of cultish dialogue around rifles and we talk ourselves into whatever….

I think you missed the point. With bolt guns, the more you spend the fancier they get. With double rifles, the more you spend the more reliable they get with the most original quality control.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Aren’t the Merkel doubles known as being some of the most durable and reliable? They cost a fraction of these British makes.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Merkel’s are accurate but not reliable. Triggers are less than reliable. And customer service is non existent.

 

[kpoynter]

I think you missed the point. With bolt guns, the more you spend the fancier they get. With double rifles, the more you spend the more reliable they get with the most original quality control.

I don’t think I missed the point…the OP is asking specifically about the VC and Doubles..
NOT bolt rifles…
???

 

[AZDAVE]

Well have given thought on a number of responses on this thread and the most relevant posted so far is by @rookhawk

I think you missed the point. With bolt guns, the more you spend the fancier they get. With double rifles, the more you spend the more reliable they get with the most original quality control.

It started as a question on basic entry level double so that a decision can be made on where to spend hard earned money and not be buying a lemon. Then it has gone the route of hypothetical quality from high end doubles.

So since I have been playing with shooting and handling doubles for the last 25 years I thought I would rank several things in a 1-100 range. There are doubles manufactured all over europe mostly a few in the US and other places. There are the german and french makers in the list and there are some great Spanish, Italian, and Austrian makers that make some of the finest doubles out there but you just never hear about them outside a small elite clientele. Entire books have been written on the British gun trade.

Then there is the intrinsic value that an individual puts on things, like history, tradition, fit and finish and that something that when the shooter holds a double in their hands with their eyes closed that just feels right. IE for me (I could never afford but have handled) of the modern doubles built after WWII The westley richards drop lock double, Rigby rising bite, have that feeling where as a H&H royal just doesn't.
When you step down to the level this thread started out with the VC , Chapuis and Krieghoff have that closed eye feels right where as the heym, Merkel, and the older Blazer S2 just have a club chuncky feeling to me. The proper fit on a double is everything in the feels fight department.

When talking about used doubles especially english classic double of pre WWII. Command a higher dollar investment but each one has to be evaluated to see what kind of condition it is in, How well it was maintained etc kinda like a used car but there is no car facts for rifles.

The first rule of double rifles is there is no cheap doubles you get what you pay for. If you are looking for a double based purely on what is the cost just stay with bolt guns. Also understand there is a learning curve to how to shoot a double well and also understand the limits of the platform. You have to know your limits and the rifles limitations and be responsible enough to walk away from shots that would be a chip shot with a scoped bolt or single shot.

Now the list below is based on my own opinion from shooting over 40 different doubles in the last 25 years. I have owned 22 different doubles in that time. (Currently own 4 Krieghoff, Chapuis, VC and Simson) Then There are 2 I wish I hadn't traded a Siace 45/70 and a English 577 BPE.

1. Westley Richards drop lock and Rigby Rising Bite
2. Purdey
4. H&H Royals


10. High end spanish
11. High end Italian, Austrian and Belgium
12. Rigby shakari


13-25 Used english (This includes Scotland and Ireland) doubles each evaluated on their quality vs Name.

26-30 Used German Austrian, Belgium, and spanish.

35. Krighoff and VC
36. Chapuis
38. Heym and Blazer S2
45. Merkel

50. Browning, beretta etc

99. Sabatti
100. REM Bakial

I have settled on the 4 doubles that I will keep and have the ability to hunt anything that walks the planet within the limitations of range of my shooting ability with a double. Outside of those I either walk away rather that risking wounding the animal or bring a scoped bolt/single shot rifle.

If I get another double it will either be a custom fit to me VC round body or Rigby Shakari.

Well there is my .02 worth

 

[AZDAVE]

@kpoynter Since folks brought up bolt gun vs double and entry to high end doubles on this thread @rookhawk was trying to eloquently in a very short amount of words cut right to the heart of questions without trying to write a book. I concur with him on his comment.

 

[rookhawk]

@kpoynter Since folks brought up bolt gun vs double and entry to high end doubles on this thread @rookhawk was trying to eloquently in a very short amount of words cut right to the heart of questions without trying to write a book. I concur with him on his comment.

That's true, I was also trying to avoid ripping on each and every fellow's favorite double rifle for their pros and cons, its a quick way to lose friends.

The neophyte assumes the extra money in a double rifle is superfluous embellishment and that one half is much is 99% is sound mechanically. That cannot be further from the truth and its why we see so many "starter doubles" being passed around this forum like a bunch of eskimo brothers with the local waitress.

Whenever someone has $8000-$10000 for a first double rifle, I beg, plead, ply them with liquor, bribe them with supper, and shout a lot that they should get an exquisite bolt gun for that money. They rarely listen and instead buy a very disappointing double rifle that they do not have trust under real hunting conditions. That rifle then gets resold 6-18 months later on this forum, GB, or GI and the circle of no-kill-shelter adoption continues.

The other people don't understand is that the "junk" doubles can be made reliable, but it takes a lot of time, money, expertise, and pain. In the end, you might have a utterly trustworthy Sabatti, but you have one that you now own for 2x its fair market value and it still looks like the gun did $4000 ago.

 

[ingwe500nitroexpress]

My concern with the VC is people I greatly respect not being enthusiastic in repairing VC. Butch had a few concerning issues that are public that would steer me away from a CC given I have owned 7 DRs from the major brands. Nothing but my POV

I’m confused. What does Butch (Searcy I presume) have to do with Verney Carron? Butch shouldn’t be in any conversation ANYWHERE about double rifles. That dude is a grifter and his rifles are neophyte pieces of glued together junk.

 

[kpoynter]

That's true, I was also trying to avoid ripping on each and every fellow's favorite double rifle for their pros and cons, its a quick way to lose friends.

The neophyte assumes the extra money in a double rifle is superfluous embellishment and that one half is much is 99% is sound mechanically. That cannot be further from the truth and its why we see so many "starter doubles" being passed around this forum like a bunch of eskimo brothers with the local waitress.

Whenever someone has $8000-$10000 for a first double rifle, I beg, plead, ply them with liquor, bribe them with supper, and shout a lot that they should get an exquisite bolt gun for that money. They rarely listen and instead buy a very disappointing double rifle that they do not have trust under real hunting conditions. That rifle then gets resold 6-18 months later on this forum, GB, or GI and the circle of no-kill-shelter adoption continues.

The other people don't understand is that the "junk" doubles can be made reliable, but it takes a lot of time, money, expertise, and pain. In the end, you might have a utterly trustworthy Sabatti, but you have one that you now own for 2x its fair market value and it still looks like the gun did $4000 ago.

Got it… and agree too. I misunderstood what you meant (like when someone asks for a Seafood restaurant recommendation and someone tells them about their favorite Italian place)
For me, as example, I strongly considered another Bolt going to a .458Lott to your point. Functionally one can argue it makes much more sense…especially per your valid points
I bought a VC Myself (with excellent engraving and wood etc) as I think they are beautiful and at a good (relative) price point
I would much rather have a nice Bolt action with excellent Wood etc than an “ugly but functional” basic double (Merkel as example)

 

[rookhawk]

Got it… and agree too. I misunderstood what you meant (like when someone asks for a Seafood restaurant recommendation and someone tells them about their favorite Italian place)
For me, as example, I strongly considered another Bolt going to a .458Lott to your point. Functionally one can argue it makes much more sense…especially per your valid points
I bought a VC Myself (with excellent engraving and wood etc) as I think they are beautiful and at a good (relative) price point
I would much rather have a nice Bolt action with excellent Wood etc than an “ugly but functional” basic double (Merkel as example)

You completely understand my point and your examples are spot on.

 

[ingwe500nitroexpress]

Sabatti, deep at the bottom of the list. So deep in fact shouldn't even be on the list. I speak from experience.

Had someone trying to educate me about doubles the other day, while not knowing I own several London bests, along with a Heym, telling me to go look at Sabatti before I get ready to have another double started by P&V or possibly another Heym, and I had to chuckle a little bit. I’ve seen some Sabattis that have ended safaris from malfunctions . Its a tough call, but I might be more inclined to get stuck with a Searcy before any of those Sabattis hahaha.

 

[ingwe500nitroexpress]

Well have given thought on a number of responses on this thread and the most relevant posted so far is by @rookhawk

It started as a question on basic entry level double so that a decision can be made on where to spend hard earned money and not be buying a lemon. Then it has gone the route of hypothetical quality from high end doubles.

So since I have been playing with shooting and handling doubles for the last 25 years I thought I would rank several things in a 1-100 range. There are doubles manufactured all over europe mostly a few in the US and other places. There are the german and french makers in the list and there are some great Spanish, Italian, and Austrian makers that make some of the finest doubles out there but you just never hear about them outside a small elite clientele. Entire books have been written on the British gun trade.

Then there is the intrinsic value that an individual puts on things, like history, tradition, fit and finish and that something that when the shooter holds a double in their hands with their eyes closed that just feels right. IE for me (I could never afford but have handled) of the modern doubles built after WWII The westley richards drop lock double, Rigby rising bite, have that feeling where as a H&H royal just doesn't.
When you step down to the level this thread started out with the VC , Chapuis and Krieghoff have that closed eye feels right where as the heym, Merkel, and the older Blazer S2 just have a club chuncky feeling to me. The proper fit on a double is everything in the feels fight department.

When talking about used doubles especially english classic double of pre WWII. Command a higher dollar investment but each one has to be evaluated to see what kind of condition it is in, How well it was maintained etc kinda like a used car but there is no car facts for rifles.

The first rule of double rifles is there is no cheap doubles you get what you pay for. If you are looking for a double based purely on what is the cost just stay with bolt guns. Also understand there is a learning curve to how to shoot a double well and also understand the limits of the platform. You have to know your limits and the rifles limitations and be responsible enough to walk away from shots that would be a chip shot with a scoped bolt or single shot.

Now the list below is based on my own opinion from shooting over 40 different doubles in the last 25 years. I have owned 22 different doubles in that time. (Currently own 4 Krieghoff, Chapuis, VC and Simson) Then There are 2 I wish I hadn't traded a Siace 45/70 and a English 577 BPE.

1. Westley Richards drop lock and Rigby Rising Bite
2. Purdey
4. H&H Royals


10. High end spanish
11. High end Italian, Austrian and Belgium
12. Rigby shakari


13-25 Used english (This includes Scotland and Ireland) doubles each evaluated on their quality vs Name.

26-30 Used German Austrian, Belgium, and spanish.

35. Krighoff and VC
36. Chapuis
38. Heym and Blazer S2
45. Merkel

50. Browning, beretta etc

99. Sabatti
100. REM Bakial

I have settled on the 4 doubles that I will keep and have the ability to hunt anything that walks the planet within the limitations of range of my shooting ability with a double. Outside of those I either walk away rather that risking wounding the animal or bring a scoped bolt/single shot rifle.

If I get another double it will either be a custom fit to me VC round body or Rigby Shakari.

Well there is my .02 worth

Interesting points. And obviously a very subjective topic. Again, I’ve owned and still own many of these rifles mentioned. I would never say a Blaser, Chapuis, or a Merkel would feel better in hand than the worst Heyms out there. And certainly not an 89b. Heavy? Yes. But they offer so many frame sizes that’s subjective as well. I’ve owned rising bites, and a few Westleys over the years , and none of them (even an inherited Purdey) feel anywhere as “magic” in hand as my Royal(s). The only 2 makers I’ve ever picked up “blindfolded” that felt magic, has been the Royals and the Purdeys. The Heym leagues ahead of certainly ANY Merkel or Chapuis. But that also brings up that bespoke doubles are often a fingerprint and some just feel better than others. Just my 2 cents though.