Holland & Holland double rifles....off face after little use..?

[Pondoro]

Occationally I have heared this rumour...or shall I say murmuring about Hollands going off face.. Is there any truth in this..? And if so...what models..?

I do not post this to offend anyone...only interested in the truth..

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Right, well. Here are my experiences on the matter (firsthand & secondhand).

Firsthand
- I’ve seen one Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector in .500/465 Nitro Express which had the barrels split in 1974 in Nairobi, Kenya. It had been brought to “Shaw & Hunter” for repair.
- I’ve seen one Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector rifle in .577 Nitro Express which had developed a double discharge problem with the faulty sears in Australia in 2001.
- I’ve seen four Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector rifles in .458 Winchester Magnum (over the years) which all had problems with ejecting the expended cartridges, because the ejectors used to override the cartridge heads all too often (although to be fair, I’ve also personally witnessed the same thing happen to a BRNO Stopper Over/Under and an Auguste Francotte sidelock ejector in .458 Winchester Magnum so I think that the issue is not exclusive to Holland & Holland but rather an inherent problem with the .458 Winchester Magnum’s high pressure rimless case design).
- I’ve seen one Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector in .458 Winchester Magnum which actually did go off-face in Zimbabwe in 1983.
- I’ve seen one Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector in .375 Holland & Holland Rimless Magnum which actually did go off-face in Pakistan in 1968.
- I’ve seen several Holland & Holland Dominion sidelock ejectors in various calibers over the years which actually did go off-face (although to be the fair, the Dominion double rifles were of a lower grade than the Royal double rifles).

Secondhand
- Jack Lott (in 3 of his articles) makes mention of Holland & Holland rifles in .500/450 Nitro Express and .500/465 Nitro Express having faulty sears or barrels that split of having gone off-face.
- My close friend, Nawab Shifath Ali Khan (the only person currently permitted to hunt dangerous game in India, whenever the government wants to put down man eating great cats and/or rogue elephants) tells me that his father (during the British colonial era) owned two .500/465 Nitro Express double rifles (one by Holland & Holland and one by Westley Richards). He hunted with both of them equally/ alternatively and observed that the rifling on the Holland & Holland wore through by 1954, while the Westley Richards was still shooting accurately.

Take what you will from my findings. I personally would not feel even the slightest bit deterred to commission a new bespoke Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector in .600 Nitro Express. Especially now that Beretta owns them.

But yes, long story short… their post 1945-pre 1982 rifles did indeed have some very noticeable issues. Please bear in mind that this was a time when Holland & Holland stopped using steel for the floor plates on their bolt action rifles and instead was using cheap aluminum alloy floor plates just for the purpose of reducing manufacturing costs.

I’ll also add that while I did see a number of faulty Holland & Holland rifles over the years (as listed under “Firsthand“), there was absolutely no way for me to ascertain what kind of use/abuse they had been subjected to prior to me coming across them.

The only real culprits which I have zero doubts about, were the .458 Winchester Magnum variants. The specimens which I saw were all well maintained and at least one of them was brand new when it was brought on Safari (1978 manufacture). So there was something definitely wrong with them.

 

[Pondoro]

I believe that no double rifle chambered in either .458Win. or .375H&H will tolerate much shooting without going off face, due to being high pressure cartridges.. I have seen Merkels in .375 come loose. There is a reason for re-chambering .458 doubles to .450 NE..

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I believe that no double rifle chambered in either .458Win. or .375H&H will tolerate much shooting without going off face, due to being high pressure cartridges.. I have seen Merkels in .375 come loose. There is a reason for re-chambering .458 doubles to .450 NE..

Then, I can already imagine your reaction if you would be present at a hunting convention I attended in Las Vegas in 1980. There was actually a Holland & Holland double rifle there, which was chambered in .460 Weatherby Magnum.

I wonder what kind of brew they were drinking when they decided to build that one.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I have never heard of a Heym 88b or 89b going off face has anyone else?

 

[Pondoro]

I have 4 british double rifles, all made prior to 1914. All are tight except a 1910 .470NE Manton (top lever) hammer rifle that is very hard used..

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I believe that no double rifle chambered in either .458Win. or .375H&H will tolerate much shooting without going off face, due to being high pressure cartridges.. I have seen Merkels in .375 come loose. There is a reason for re-chambering .458 doubles to .450 NE..

I shot this Cape buffalo twice with a Belgium made boxlock ejector double rifle in .458 Winchester Magnum (an unmarked guild gun built on an Auguste Francotte action). Left barrel has loaded with a hand-loaded Hornady 500Gr soft point, while the right barrel was loaded with a hand-loaded Hornady 500Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid. First shot was broadside double-lung shot and second shot was a quartering away shot behind the shoulder. As the buffalo was escaping, I tried to load another pair of solid cartridges into the rifle. But the ejectors had failed me and the empty shells were still stuck inside the breech. Essentially, at that point… I was armed with a very big stick and if that Cape buffalo decided to charge, then the only thing that could save me from being gored was the hope that my white hunter (who was armed with a BRNO ZKK-600 in 9.3x62mm Mauser) could manage to stop him in time.

Fortunately, those first two bullets were properly placed. The soft nose bullet (first shot) had taken out both of the lungs, while the solid bullet had punched through into the heart. As a result, the Cape buffalo folded before he could run 100 yards. But still, best not to tempt fate ever again. One can only keep getting lucky for so long.

 

[Pondoro]

Yep..the .458Win. works..took this bull with Hornady 480 grain DGS handloads..

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

I believe that no double rifle chambered in either .458Win. or .375H&H will tolerate much shooting without going off face, due to being high pressure cartridges.. I have seen Merkels in .375 come loose. There is a reason for re-chambering .458 doubles to .450 NE..

I wish to report that I have almost 500 documented shots and two safaris over the past three years with my trusty Heym 88 in 458 Winchester. I think that's probably more than most doubles are ever shot!

I am very familiar with break action shotguns and rifles and can assure all that my Heym is NOT off face. My rifle was made in 1986 and I have no idea how much my trusty Heym was shot prior to my caretaking.

My Heym also shoots two shots from each barrel into a 4" group at 100 yards. This is achieved with a 1 MOA dot on a Trijicon SRO, not a scope. I have used it to take giraffe at 116 yards, and a wildebeest at over 150 yards.

There is nothing wrong with my four five eight! I have NO intention of rechambering it! In my opinion, most probably rechamber from 458 to 450 NE to eliminate the pawls on the extractors. That's a good enough reason, I guess...

 

[Pondoro]

Seeing is believing Mark...Heym must make very sturdy actions..!

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I wish to report that I have almost 500 documented shots and two safaris over the past three years with my trusty Heym 88 in 458 Winchester. I think that's probably more than most doubles are ever shot!

I am very familiar with break action shotguns and rifles and can assure all that my Heym is NOT off face. My rifle was made in 1986 and I have no idea how much my trusty Heym was shot prior to my caretaking.

My Heym also shoots two shots from each barrel into a 4" group at 100 yards. This is achieved with a 1 MOA dot on a Trijicon SRO, not a scope. I have used it to take giraffe at 116 yards, and a wildebeest at over 150 yards.

There is nothing wrong with my four five eight! I have NO intention of rechambering it! In my opinion, most probably rechamber from 458 to 450 NE to eliminate the pawls on the extractors. That's a good enough reason, I guess...

Yes, but you don’t just have a double rifle. You have a HEYM. Those things are on another level. And I’ll even venture to say that they manufacture the best double rifles in existence today.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

I currently own four German doubles to include:

• Heym 88 in 458 Win
• Kreighoff Classic in 500/416
• Merkel 140AE in 375 H&H
• Blaser S2 in 375 H&H

Please don't ask why, these things just follow me home.
Of these rifles, the Heym handles the best. Movement of Inertia is easiest with the Heym.
The K-gun is built like a brick shxthouse.

Of the three cartridges, my opinion is the 500/416 launching a 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps is the most useful. I will have to send the K-gun to JJ to have it regulated to my loads but that's a cost of doing business. If I don't like paying a few dollars to fine tune a fine rifle, then I should stick to a scoped bolt action rifle. I have three of those in 416 cartridges...

My two 375 doubles are scoped, which make them very useful. The Merkel has the EAW side swing quick release scope. I wish all my double had that so I could attach a scope for those extra long shots at plains game and vermin.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I currently own four German doubles to include:

• Heym 88 in 458 Win
• Kreighoff Classic in 500/416
• Merkel 140AE in 375 H&H
• Blaser S2 in 375 H&H

Please don't ask why, these things just follow me home.
Of these rifles, the Heym handles the best. Movement of Inertia is easiest with the Heym.
The K-gun is built like a brick shxthouse.

Of the three cartridges, my opinion is the 500/416 launching a 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps is the most useful. I will have to send the K-gun to JJ to have it regulated to my loads but that's a cost of doing business. If I don't like paying a few dollars to fine tune a fine rifle, then I should stick to a scoped bolt action rifle. I have three of those in 416 cartridges...

My two 375 doubles are scoped, which make them very useful. The Merkel has the EAW side swing quick release scope. I wish all my double had that so I could attach a scope for those extra long shots at plains game and vermin.

Mark, I have to ask. What were these four doubles regulated for originally ? The Heym (being of 1986 manufacture) was surely regulated for Winchester Super X or Remington Safari 500Gr/510 Gr ammunition ? And the Kreighoff would be Norma, yes ? Merkel would probably be Hornady, I’m guessing ? And I’m totally clueless on the Blaser.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Mark, I have to ask. What were these four doubles regulated for originally ? The Heym (being of 1986 manufacture) was surely regulated for Winchester Super X or Remington Safari 500Gr/510 Gr ammunition ? And the Kreighoff would be Norma, yes ? Merkel would probably be Hornady, I’m guessing ? And I’m totally clueless on the Blaser.

HH,

Sorry but I have no idea. Since I load all my ammo and track every practice shot with Lab Radars, I don't worry about that.

My Heym regulates with 500 grain Cutting Edge solids and 470 gr Grand Safari Raptors at 2130 to 2140 fps. Other bullets in that weight range regulate close to the CEBs.

My K-gun does not like 400 gr bullets at 2400 fps. This rifle was regulated for significantly less than a full power, 416 Rigby equivalent load! I have tried half a dozen different 400 grain bullets at 2400 fps. All have a lateral spread of 4" at 50 yards, and even 8 to 15" at 100 yards. From what I have ascertained, the regulation loads may have been in the 2150 to 2200 fps range. Once I verify accuracy of my desired loads in each barrel, a visit to JJ Perodeau is in her future...

I have only fired a half dozen shots with the Merkel. Using 375 gr TSX she groups 3.5 inches at 100 yards. Since she has a scope I want no more than a 2" barrel to barrel average spread. Of course a 1 inch center to center of barrel groups will be golden! She has a QR scope which shrinks the groups, in my opinion. I'd wish my 458 Heym had a QR scope!

The Blazer individual barrels thus far shoot about a inch each at 100 yds. I shot both barrels into a 2.5" and 3" groups. I mounted a 1-8x Vortex scope on it for working up regulation loads. I really like the 8 power for shooting small groups but I will mount something better if I take this rifle on safari. Since the regulation is user adjustable, this one could replace a bolt action on safari.

Notes:
1. Forty years ago I could see 5.56 mm shot holes in the 10 and X rings of my targets at 300 yards. Not so much now. Today I use my bifocal reading prescription for my iron sight bullseye pistol shooting. I just mount a Trijicon SRO or scope on my rifles.
2. I haven't shot the Kreighoff and 375's enough to release much more information. When I have, I will put the information into an article.

 

[Pondoro]

I hear you on scopes Mark...I scoped my .470 Krieghoff with a Leupold red dot, in a swing mount...I did this after succesfully shoot ele at night with a .375 with an Aimpoint.. Those red dots are very fast to use..

I also find the Krieghoff to be very forgiving....it shoots more or less the same with factory Norma, Federal and Hornady... + handloads..

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

For what is worth, here are a couple photos of my three newer doubles during a load development test.

 

[WAB]

Mark, I’m curious about your chronograph. I have two and am not totally satisfied with either of them. I have no interest in the barrel mounted units as I would like to be testing accuracy and velocity simultaneously.

 

[Rare Breed]

Right, well. Here are my experiences on the matter (firsthand & secondhand).

Firsthand
- I’ve seen one Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector in .500/465 Nitro Express which had the barrels split in 1974 in Nairobi, Kenya. It had been brought to “Shaw & Hunter” for repair.
- I’ve seen one Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector rifle in .577 Nitro Express which had developed a double discharge problem with the faulty sears in Australia in 2001.
- I’ve seen four Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector rifles in .458 Winchester Magnum (over the years) which all had problems with ejecting the expended cartridges, because the ejectors used to override the cartridge heads all too often (although to be fair, I’ve also personally witnessed the same thing happen to a BRNO Stopper Over/Under and an Auguste Francotte sidelock ejector in .458 Winchester Magnum so I think that the issue is not exclusive to Holland & Holland but rather an inherent problem with the .458 Winchester Magnum’s high pressure rimless case design).
- I’ve seen one Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector in .458 Winchester Magnum which actually did go off-face in Zimbabwe in 1983.
- I’ve seen one Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector in .375 Holland & Holland Rimless Magnum which actually did go off-face in Pakistan in 1968.
- I’ve seen several Holland & Holland Dominion sidelock ejectors in various calibers over the years which actually did go off-face (although to be the fair, the Dominion double rifles were of a lower grade than the Royal double rifles).

Secondhand
- Jack Lott (in 3 of his articles) makes mention of Holland & Holland rifles in .500/450 Nitro Express and .500/465 Nitro Express having faulty sears or barrels that split of having gone off-face.
- My close friend, Nawab Shifath Ali Khan (the only person currently permitted to hunt dangerous game in India, whenever the government wants to put down man eating great cats and/or rogue elephants) tells me that his father (during the British colonial era) owned two .500/465 Nitro Express double rifles (one by Holland & Holland and one by Westley Richards). He hunted with both of them equally/ alternatively and observed that the rifling on the Holland & Holland wore through by 1954, while the Westley Richards was still shooting accurately.

Take what you will from my findings. I personally would not feel even the slightest bit deterred to commission a new bespoke Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector in .600 Nitro Express. Especially now that Beretta owns them.

But yes, long story short… their post 1945-pre 1982 rifles did indeed have some very noticeable issues. Please bear in mind that this was a time when Holland & Holland stopped using steel for the floor plates on their bolt action rifles and instead was using cheap aluminum alloy floor plates just for the purpose of reducing manufacturing costs.

I’ll also add that while I did see a number of faulty Holland & Holland rifles over the years (as listed under “Firsthand“), there was absolutely no way for me to ascertain what kind of use/abuse they had been subjected to prior to me coming across them.

The only real culprits which I have zero doubts about, were the .458 Winchester Magnum variants. The specimens which I saw were all well maintained and at least one of them was brand new when it was brought on Safari (1978 manufacture). So there was something definitely wrong with them.

I so value your incredible experience,stories and posts!!!

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I so value your incredible experience,stories and posts!!!

Why, thank you, Rare Breed.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Mark, I’m curious about your chronograph. I have two and am not totally satisfied with either of them. I have no interest in the barrel mounted units as I would like to be testing accuracy and velocity simultaneously

I load all my ammo and track every practice shot with Lab Radars

I really like the Lab Radars. I have a spare because I like mine so much that I could not develop loads without it!

I do have problems triggering them with .22 caliber rifles like my .22-250. There are aftermarket triggering devices for Lab Radars. I need to buy one. They have no problem tracking the larger projectiles.

Lab Radars are in demand and behind in production due to the chip shortage. I recommend buying one as soon as you see it. Chances are that in 30 minutes, it will be gone.