Holland & Holland double rifles....off face after little use..?

[Inline6]

Mark, I’m curious about your chronograph. I have two and am not totally satisfied with either of them. I have no interest in the barrel mounted units as I would like to be testing accuracy and velocity simultaneously.

You have two LabRadars? Or two chronographs?

I have been very happy with my LabRadar and my V3. What the LabRadar doesn't pickup the V3 will. Think about suppressed 22LR. They have sensitivity settings that need to be adjusted to have them read correctly. Like @Mark A Ouellette pointed out, you can purchase external triggers for them too. I use a magnetic switch for all my suppressed center fire rifles to make my life easy.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

You have two LabRadars? Or two chronographs?

I really like the Lab Radars. I have a spare because I like mine so much that I could not develop loads without it!

 

[WAB]

You have two LabRadars? Or two chronographs?

I have been very happy with my LabRadar and my V3. What the LabRadar doesn't pickup the V3 will. Think about suppressed 22LR. They have sensitivity settings that need to be adjusted to have them read correctly. Like @Mark A Ouellette pointed out, you can purchase external triggers for them too. I use a magnetic switch for all my suppressed center fire rifles to make my life easy.

No, two chronographs, neither are lab radars. I’m wanting to upgrade. I’m getting sucked into the precision rifle game. To be fair, I’m not fighting very hard.

 

[ftrovato]

I wish to report that I have almost 500 documented shots and two safaris over the past three years with my trusty Heym 88 in 458 Winchester. I think that's probably more than most doubles are ever shot!

I am very familiar with break action shotguns and rifles and can assure all that my Heym is NOT off face. My rifle was made in 1986 and I have no idea how much my trusty Heym was shot prior to my caretaking.

My Heym also shoots two shots from each barrel into a 4" group at 100 yards. This is achieved with a 1 MOA dot on a Trijicon SRO, not a scope. I have used it to take giraffe at 116 yards, and a wildebeest at over 150 yards.

There is nothing wrong with my four five eight! I have NO intention of rechambering it! In my opinion, most probably rechamber from 458 to 450 NE to eliminate the pawls on the extractors. That's a good enough reason, I guess...

If you had to replace your Trijicon would you continue with the 1 MOA dot or go with something larger like a 2" or 3.5" dot?

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

If you had to replace your Trijicon would you continue with the 1 MOA dot or go with something larger like a 2" or 3.5" dot?

Aim small, hit small. I'd buy a half MOA dot if they made them.

 

[Inline6]

No, two chronographs, neither are lab radars. I’m wanting to upgrade. I’m getting sucked into the precision rifle game. To be fair, I’m not fighting very hard.

You won't regret getting one, just leave ot running while you shoot. You can learn all kinds of information.

If you had to replace your Trijicon would you continue with the 1 MOA dot or go with something larger like a 2" or 3.5" dot?

I like a two MOA dot myself, my eyes pick it up quickly.

 

[AES]

Back to the OP’s question . . . Of course a H&H has come off face at some point in the company’s long and storied history. So has every other maker of double rifles. The difference is that in one case (non-H&H equip) its excused because that trash double is a piece of inferior equipment. When people think of H&H, the most impeccable mechanical thing in this world that would absolutely never have a mechanical issue, they don’t expect issues. While an issue is likely never to have arisen with such a piece of kit, I could only assume it would be more globally discussed than some other pedestrian continental double.

 

[AES]

JK, duh.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Seeing is believing Mark...Heym must make very sturdy actions..!

Yes, and well designed as well as well executed. The long water table means a) that the opening moment is further from the pivot, b) that the third lockup is that much more effective in the horizontal movement plane. The vertical tab indexing into the vertical Greener slot fits very snugly such that upon closure there is no chance of any movement side to side. It is common sense, one wonders why the others don't swallow their pride and follow suit.
Speaking of which, I examined the new Rigby boxlock in the white, which is really a prototype, and saw they had employed an outsized doll's head. Jerome told me that the production model will have a smaller one. Clearly though they were concerned about third lockup, and have gone the historical route. More difficult to execute than a Greener tab.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

To paraphrase a line spoken my Harvey Keitel in the movie U-571 as the American crew took the U-boat to 500 feet below the surface, "Those Krauts build a hell or a gun (boat)". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-571_(film)

A London best rifle or gun is arguably the finest sporting arm in the world. They were also meant to be returned to their makers after the shooting season for inspection, tuning, tightening, and if necessary refreshing. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't H&H use Mauser bolt actions before and after the World Wars?

American sporting arms, at least until 1963, were made to last a lifetime without need of anything but cleaning. There were working arms, many of which reside in my gun safes still ready to work.

German sporting arms designed by German engineers and manufactured by German craftsmen and machinery are like American arms but of more intricate design. Dollar for Dollar, I trust German or Austrian engineering far over British for most any type of machinery including firearms.

The Greener Crossbolt while of British design, is used by Heym and Merkel to lock their actions. It may not be the prettiest mechanism but it is not going to allow the action to open if a round develops too much pressure. By design, it will stabilize the action as the molecules take advantage of Youngs Modulas, "everything is a spring". The less elastic an action is, the less chance of plastic deformation (permanent warping out of shape) where it comes off face.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young's_modulus

The above stated, H&H actions may come off face for many reasons; over pressure loads, lack of cleaning and lubricating the action, and what I suspect, materials like the steel used that may not of been of the same quality as used by Heym.

German or British engineering? If I were going to buy a sports car that I would drive hard for 200,000 miles over ten years, like I have my trusty Ford F-150, it sure as heck would not be a Jaguar, as beautiful as they are. No, make mine a BMW or maybe a sporty Audi. After all, those Krauts build a heck of a machine!

The above is my opinion. Yours may vary...

 

[Pondoro]

Of course modern steel is better than pre 1914..that is kind of obvious, right..? Krieghoff build large bore double rifles on 20 gauge actions these days..

I have 4 pre 1914 double rifles, all are boxlocks except a 1910 Manton .470NE hammer gun (back acton sidelocks..top lever) All have seen much use, the only loose action is on that Manton that came out of India with worn barrels etc...it has been used very hard.

I also have a 1896 vintage Purdey shotgun, sidelocked of course..still tight as a bank vault.

I think that is a pretty good testament to the british gun, best guns or not..

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

I also have a 1896 vintage Purdey shotgun, sidelocked of course..still tight as a bank vault.

Mine piece of British art in steel and walnut is a Henry Atkin (from Purdy's) from the same period. Its an 8 pound 10 gauge SxS that handles like a 6 pound 12 bore. When its action is closed it sounds like music.

Wonderful gun although it's attempt at a single trigger was a couple decades too early... Thinking about it, the single trigger mechanism probably functioned flawlessly for the first decade or two.

 

[ftrovato]

You won't regret getting one, just leave ot running while you shoot. You can learn all kinds of information.




I like a two MOA dot myself, my eyes pick it up quickly.

I find that with my older eyes I also do better with a bigger front site too....pick it up more quickly and end up shooting better.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

I find that with my older eyes I also do better with a bigger front site too....pick it up more quickly and end up shooting better.

With my Trijicon, Aimpoint, Sig Romeo, and cheaper red dots, the dots appear larger the higher the intensity. My one MOA dots appear at least two or three inches in diameter on a 100 yard target.

I have killed a giraffe at a measured 116 yards and wildebeest at over 150 meters with my 458 Heym double and SRO with one minute dot. For those shots I took my time and clicked down the intensity of the dot to being just visible.

While stalking,, I run the intensity much higher where the dot would be 3 to 4 inches on a 100 yard target.

Your eyes may see the dots differently than mine do.

 

[ftrovato]

With my Trijicon, Aimpoint, Sig Romeo, and cheaper red dots, the dots appear larger the higher the intensity. My one MOA dots appear at least two or three inches in diameter on a 100 yard target.

I have killed a giraffe at a measured 116 yards and wildebeest at over 150 meters with my 458 Heym double and SRO with one minute dot. For those shots I took my time and clicked down the intensity of the dot to being just visible.

While stalking,, I run the intensity much higher where the dot would be 3 to 4 inches on a 100 yard target.

Your eyes may see the dots differently than mine do.

With my Trijicon, Aimpoint, Sig Romeo, and cheaper red dots, the dots appear larger the higher the intensity. My one MOA dots appear at least two or three inches in diameter on a 100 yard target.

I have killed a giraffe at a measured 116 yards and wildebeest at over 150 meters with my 458 Heym double and SRO with one minute dot. For those shots I took my time and clicked down the intensity of the dot to being just visible.

While stalking,, I run the intensity much higher where the dot would be 3 to 4 inches on a 100 yard target.

Your eyes may see the dots differently than mine do.

Great input! Thx much....

 

[Inline6]

With my Trijicon, Aimpoint, Sig Romeo, and cheaper red dots, the dots appear larger the higher the intensity. My one MOA dots appear at least two or three inches in diameter on a 100 yard target.

I have killed a giraffe at a measured 116 yards and wildebeest at over 150 meters with my 458 Heym double and SRO with one minute dot. For those shots I took my time and clicked down the intensity of the dot to being just visible.

While stalking,, I run the intensity much higher where the dot would be 3 to 4 inches on a 100 yard target.

Your eyes may see the dots differently than mine do.

That is the best way I have found myself to make accurate shots using a RDS. Turn intensity down to hardly visible.

You are correct everyone eyes are different, my eyes have a astigmatism. The dot is more of a star than a round dot. If you are wondering how one would know. Use your phone camera, if you see a perfect dot on your phone and not with eyes...well chances are you have astigmatism.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

To paraphrase a line spoken my Harvey Keitel in the movie U-571 as the American crew took the U-boat to 500 feet below the surface, "Those Krauts build a hell or a gun (boat)". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-571_(film)

A London best rifle or gun is arguably the finest sporting arm in the world. They were also meant to be returned to their makers after the shooting season for inspection, tuning, tightening, and if necessary refreshing. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't H&H use Mauser bolt actions before and after the World Wars?

American sporting arms, at least until 1963, were made to last a lifetime without need of anything but cleaning. There were working arms, many of which reside in my gun safes still ready to work.

German sporting arms designed by German engineers and manufactured by German craftsmen and machinery are like American arms but of more intricate design. Dollar for Dollar, I trust German or Austrian engineering far over British for most any type of machinery including firearms.

The Greener Crossbolt while of British design, is used by Heym and Merkel to lock their actions. It may not be the prettiest mechanism but it is not going to allow the action to open if a round develops too much pressure. By design, it will stabilize the action as the molecules take advantage of Youngs Modulas, "everything is a spring". The less elastic an action is, the less chance of plastic deformation (permanent warping out of shape) where it comes off face.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young's_modulus

The above stated, H&H actions may come off face for many reasons; over pressure loads, lack of cleaning and lubricating the action, and what I suspect, materials like the steel used that may not of been of the same quality as used by Heym.

German or British engineering? If I were going to buy a sports car that I would drive hard for 200,000 miles over ten years, like I have my trusty Ford F-150, it sure as heck would not be a Jaguar, as beautiful as they are. No, make mine a BMW or maybe a sporty Audi. After all, those Krauts build a heck of a machine!

The above is my opinion. Yours may vary...

Before the first World War, Holland & Holland was using Mauser 98 actions. From 1919-1957, they gave you an option of having your rifle built with either the Mauser 98 action or the Pattern 14 Enfield action. From 1957-1981, they were using whatever salvaged military surplus Mauser 98 action which they could get their hands on. Sometimes out of sheer desperation, they would resort to building rifles on Mauser 66 actions (I have seen 2 such specimens over the years, both in .458 Winchester Magnum). From 1982 onwards, they started using various Mauser Model 98 actions depending upon who was supplying them at the time (like FHZ or Waffen Prechtll).

This is from their 1958 catalog. Observe the red note on the top righthand corner, which informs the customer that Holland & Holland has already run out of Pattern 14 Enfield actions to build their magazine rifles on, by 1957.

 

[VertigoBE]

Where on the internet can one find so much real life knowledge and honest criticism about such great hunting rifles, then right here on AH. Loving this thread!

 

[Hunt anything]

I’m going to show my ignorance on double rifles, I’ve never owned one and most likely never will: but what is ”off face”?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I’m going to show my ignorance on double rifles, I’ve never owned one and most likely never will: but what is ”off face”?

When the barrels start to become loose from the action flats or "Face" (hence the term). This is caused by wear on the the hinge pin or barrel joint.