Holt Auction Questions

[318AE]

I think the 275 Rigby is a great choice for a vintage rifle. It has all the nostalgia and charisma, but is much easier to find ammunition, and quite versatile. There is a difference in my mind, between a collectible to purchase, own and appreciate, and a vintage gun to use, which may also appreciate.

I’ve purchased and imported a few vintage (C&R) from Holts. My experience is not as onerous as what some others have shared, or speculated. If you have a C&R FFL, you can complete and submit the ATF form 6 directly to the ATF, with no fees etc. That and a simple declaration stating that it is for personal use and not military arms or implements is all that is required to import. Harry Gordon is very helpful. You do need to mail the original documents.

I’ve never paid storage fees, customs import fees or duties. I have them air delivered directly to the local bonded depot at the airport, and clear customs myself. For this category of import, for personal use only, the customs department officers have never charged me. I believe this is the correct treatment. This would be more difficult if I did not live close to an international airport with direct flights to London. The recipient shipper (ie FedEx etc) will accrue storage fees quickly, if you are not able to pick them up in 48-72 hours upon notification.

Auction descriptions in sight unseen auctions can be problematic. There are third parties that will provide independent assessments based on access at Holt’s viewing days. Diggory Hadoke provides these services.

Why go through all this? I think there is less demand in the UK for some of these firearms than in the US, and at times there is a favorable GBP to USD rate. Is it possible? Yes, with some risk and much patience.

 

[rookhawk]

I think the biggest detail @318AE is overlooking is the Curio & Relic designation in the USA means nothing in the UK. Their key date isn’t 50 years from today in the UK (C&R says 50 years old is a Curio), but rather 1898.

When you hear tales of buying a crate of nice English box lock shotguns at Holts, clearing your own customs, avoiding the harmonized tariff schedule, avoiding etching via a FFL importer, etc. they are weapons that are shotguns, not rifles, which is a BIG UK difference. They are also all made before January 1st, 1899, another BIG difference.

Everything is doable and there are several importers of fine guns that can walk you through the entire process in the USA. However, a modern Section 5 rifle from the UK is wrought with bureaucracy that consumes time and money when you attempt import and the labor is the same whether its a $500 gun or a $500,000 gun. If you value your time at US median wage rates per hour or better, the dollar value of the guns you’re getting plus the notion it is a best gun unobtainable at any price in North America should be considerations that make import a reasonable approach. To overcome the costs of time and money, the gun has to be worth a handsome sum if it is deemed by law to be a modern rifle.

 

[318AE]

Rookhawk - My first hand experience with a number of imports is simply different than what I understand you to describe. I’ve never had an exporting issue with shotguns, or rifles, from the UK, or in the EU (Spain). I’ve never had an issue with a post 1898/9 rifle, even those based on a “military” M98 variant action. I’ve not found that to be wrought with bureaucracy. I’ve found the whole process to be pretty straight forward, once understood, and everyone along the way, from the ATF, HGSS, US Customs etc to be helpful.

I’m simply relating my repeated, first hand experience, which I hope is helpful to others. Before I started doing this myself, many shared second hand “doom and gloom” experiences. Some of those provided filing out this paperwork as a service, for hundreds of dollars. I won’t get into a conversation about the value of another’s time, but it takes me about as long to complete an ATF from 6, as it does to make these posts.

 

[rookhawk]

Rookhawk - My first hand experience with a number of imports is simply different than what I understand you to describe. I’ve never had an exporting issue with shotguns, or rifles, from the UK, or in the EU (Spain). I’ve never had an issue with a post 1898/9 rifle, even those based on a “military” M98 variant action. I’ve not found that to be wrought with bureaucracy. I’ve found the whole process to be pretty straight forward, once understood, and everyone along the way, from the ATF, HGSS, US Customs etc to be helpful.

I’m simply relating my repeated, first hand experience, which I hope is helpful to others. Before I started doing this myself, many shared second hand “doom and gloom” experiences. Some of those provided filing out this paperwork as a service, for hundreds of dollars. I won’t get into a conversation about the value of another’s time, but it takes me about as long to complete an ATF from 6, as it does to make these posts.

Well, I’m not here to say you’re wrong, only that the troves of rules may not have been applied to you at your local bureau of inefficiency.

How I’ve done it myself:

-Sort through Holt’s auctions looking for shotguns as they are easier to import.
-Sort through those I believe to be pre-1899
-As for condition reports detailing minimum wall thickness, bore diameter, and choke
-Select 20 to create a bidding strategy upon in the UK
-Win 6-10 of the twenty
-Wire Holt’s the hammer price, plus 22.5% buyer’s premium, plus VAT on the hammer. Paying foreign transaction fee and wire fee charges.
-Arrange for Harry Gordon to receive the guns from Holt’s as my agent.
-Harry begins seeking UK export permit approvals. If they take a protracted period of time due to know fault of anyone but the government, storage fees are imposed.
-Freight charges are determined via air and permission to fly is granted.
-Living near a major global airport, upon arrival I get the airway bill and bill of Lading from the FedEx international freight forwarder.
-Take those papers over to US customs and border patrol. Fill out paperwork flawlessly because you cannot speak to anyone. Provide photo copies of all original ledgers establishing to US customs’ satisfaction they were made pre-1899 and as such, not subject to BATF Form 6 import requirements, or importer serial number engraving.
-Return the next day to an approval or denial at US customs.
-If approved, go to the counter to argue with the hundreds and hundreds of dollars in harmonized tariff schedule customs fees. Demonstrate to the agent that they are not firearms, they are works of art by evidence of hours of research showing the ledgers that prove they are pre-1899 antique “works of art”.
-If successful in proving works of art, pay about $28 for a customs clearance. If not, whip out the currency (personal checks not allowed) to the exact penny and pay them hundreds of dollars.
-Gain the customs clearance and evidence of duty paid
-Return to FedEx international freight, presenting them with paperwork.
-Pay FedEx international for storage charges for the 24-48 hours (ideally) they held the prepaid freight.
-They release the guns
-Go home and thoroughly inspect the 6-10 guns. Identify the defects that need repairs that were not disclosed. Send half of them off for repairs for out of time ejectors, failing safeties, to get Damascus rebrowned. Clean and conserve those within the abilities to personally handle.
-Fire the restored, repaired, or conserved guns to determine which of the 6-10 guns suit your collection and which upon handlilng, repair, and shooting, do not.
-Advertise and sell the 1-3 that you do find do not fit you or that do not pattern in the manner you had intended for your hunting/shooting. Accurately present the facts to prospective buyers.
-Wait 1-3 months to sell those 1-3 guns. The proceeds of the sales cover the cost of purchase of those guns, the repairs, the listing fees, and perhaps most or all of the shipping/customs/handling fees for the overall shipment.

-Net result, you possess a few fine English shotguns for the price of the hammer + premium + VAT, perhaps softening the other costs incurred through the journey.


It is my understanding, if the various government agencies enforce the laws properly, that the circumstances would be far different if a.) post-1899, b.) modern, c.) rifle, d.) section 5 status in UK, e.) weapon not on a UK shotgun license, f.) Not routed via a BATF Form 6 to a licensed importer. G.) if the licensed importer does not etch the guns to a depth of .005” or more with their name/address/import details, H.) that the importer does not transfer the weapons to a US based 01FFL for final transfer to the customer on a Form 4473.

I think the results of this process could be as varied as there are US ports and custom’s agents. This has been my experiences in easier, earlier days relying on Chicago as the US port rather than NY, LA, Or ATL. I omitted any details related to State law because that’s relevant Unless you’re importing into Illinois.

I’ve found the easiest way to do this now is to pay a friend that’s an importer $750 to hand carry shotguns from UK to USA. He is allowed to do that with shotguns, but I do not believe he is permitted to do that for rifles as he was reluctant when I requested this service. I think G&H does rifles for about a grand, dealing with all the headaches that exceed those of shotguns.

For the benefit of myself and the readers, could you please walk through the process steps you took for you to receive a rifle in the US from the UK?

 

[WAB]

I have brought in one shotgun and one rifle from the UK. Both were modern weapons. I found working through the Import process to be quite easy. I had the advantage of my friends at H&H handling things in the UK, but I managed the US side without issue.

 

[318AE]

I’m glad the original poster, rarebreed, has found a rifle to his liking, and hope he has many years of enjoyment ahead.

I appreciate Cal posting his photos and his regrettable, unfortunate, first hand experience for the benefits of others. Those photos literally “paint the picture”, and provide a more complete perspective on what one may be getting into.

Rookhawk - your most recent post has made clear the difference in our experiences. I’m importing solely as a collector, for personal use only, not for resale. I do that with a C&R FFL, and generally do one or two firearms at a time, both rifles and shotguns, all post 1898/99. I’ve even imported vintage ammunition (a different ATF form 6 munitions category - I got a friendly phone call from the ATF, and after a short conversation everything went smoothly.). Most firearms are generally from the 20s and 30s.

The process that has worked repeatedly well for me is as follows:
1) Contact Holts and Harry upon being notified on winning, and let Holts know Harry will be handling export and shipping. I wire transfer Holts the amount due for the auction only. Harry arranges pick up for a number of firearms on behalf of clients, and has never required paper work or fees, other than a copy of the paid invoice from Holts. All done via email.
2) Fill out a ATF form 6 - more or less a single page, and mail it to the address shown on the form, in West Virginia. No fees required. It generally takes about 6 weeks to get it back. Somewhere in there, the firearms are moved from Holts to Harry at no direct charge.
3) Upon receiving the signed, approved ATF form 6 back, I add to that on a separate page, a simple one paragraph declaration, stating it’s for personal, sporting use only, and some quite ridiculous language about nuclear weapons and the such. Harry can provide the language. It varies by exporting country. It’s a little different language for the EU. I mail the original copies to Harry, and call him to confirm I want crating and not boxing (wood, not cardboard), and he provides a price about a day later. That price, inclusive of shipping, export paperwork, crating etc, is about $400-$450.
4) Harry provides the outbound shipping information, and I await a call from FedEx. Upon notification, I go promptly to the airport cargo terminal, and pick up the ATF form 6, bill of lading etc. If delayed, you can pay storage fees here, but I never have. I take the paperwork to the customs office at the airport terminal. They sign, stamp and return. For personal use, I’ve never been charged any fees by customs. This has usually taken about 15 mins total time in the office. Oddly, they always want my state driver’s license, and not my Federal government issued Global Entry id. From memory, it’s probably been a different agent each time. I’ve had more challenges in that office getting the “proof of ownership” signed for taking firearms abroad than getting these import documents signed.
5) I go back to the cargo terminal with the completed paperwork, and pick up the wooden crate…. Total time at the airport is about an hour. Total time from auction purchase is about 10-12weeks.

Harry is very knowledgable. Most others along the way (at FedEx, Customs etc), are generally inquisitive, and sometimes almost entertained by something “out of the ordinary”.

I hope this is clarifying and helpful. I’ve used a similar process for Gavin Gardner and private individuals in the EU. Two things to watch out for:
- You, or your broker ($$$), will have to travel to the inbound airport cargo terminal. They tend not to move firearms from bonded to bonded warehouse, although they should be able to. Having a direct flight to your nearby airport is key. In the case of Holts, it’s direct flight from London.
- None of this addresses the inherent risk with purchasing at auction, from photos, descriptions and what additional information you can get beyond the catalog listing. I’ve seen discrepancies from essentially all the auction houses.

 

[Rare Breed]

Rookhawk so very appreciative to you for your guidance!!! Thanks to you I was able to negotiate $1500 off their asking price and get your definition of a vintage gun at a fair price!!!

 

[Rare Breed]

I’m glad the original poster, rarebreed, has found a rifle to his liking, and hope he has many years of enjoyment ahead.

I appreciate Cal posting his photos and his regrettable, unfortunate, first hand experience for the benefits of others. Those photos literally “paint the picture”, and provide a more complete perspective on what one may be getting into.

Rookhawk - your most recent post has made clear the difference in our experiences. I’m importing solely as a collector, for personal use only, not for resale. I do that with a C&R FFL, and generally do one or two firearms at a time, both rifles and shotguns, all post 1898/99. I’ve even imported vintage ammunition (a different ATF form 6 munitions category - I got a friendly phone call from the ATF, and after a short conversation everything went smoothly.). Most firearms are generally from the 20s and 30s.

The process that has worked repeatedly well for me is as follows:
1) Contact Holts and Harry upon being notified on winning, and let Holts know Harry will be handling export and shipping. I wire transfer Holts the amount due for the auction only. Harry arranges pick up for a number of firearms on behalf of clients, and has never required paper work or fees, other than a copy of the paid invoice from Holts. All done via email.
2) Fill out a ATF form 6 - more or less a single page, and mail it to the address shown on the form, in West Virginia. No fees required. It generally takes about 6 weeks to get it back. Somewhere in there, the firearms are moved from Holts to Harry at no direct charge.
3) Upon receiving the signed, approved ATF form 6 back, I add to that on a separate page, a simple one paragraph declaration, stating it’s for personal, sporting use only, and some quite ridiculous language about nuclear weapons and the such. Harry can provide the language. It varies by exporting country. It’s a little different language for the EU. I mail the original copies to Harry, and call him to confirm I want crating and not boxing (wood, not cardboard), and he provides a price about a day later. That price, inclusive of shipping, export paperwork, crating etc, is about $400-$450.
4) Harry provides the outbound shipping information, and I await a call from FedEx. Upon notification, I go promptly to the airport cargo terminal, and pick up the ATF form 6, bill of lading etc. If delayed, you can pay storage fees here, but I never have. I take the paperwork to the customs office at the airport terminal. They sign, stamp and return. For personal use, I’ve never been charged any fees by customs. This has usually taken about 15 mins total time in the office. Oddly, they always want my state driver’s license, and not my Federal government issued Global Entry id. From memory, it’s probably been a different agent each time. I’ve had more challenges in that office getting the “proof of ownership” signed for taking firearms abroad than getting these import documents signed.
5) I go back to the cargo terminal with the completed paperwork, and pick up the wooden crate…. Total time at the airport is about an hour. Total time from auction purchase is about 10-12weeks.

Harry is very knowledgable. Most others along the way (at FedEx, Customs etc), are generally inquisitive, and sometimes almost entertained by something “out of the ordinary”.

I hope this is clarifying and helpful. I’ve used a similar process for Gavin Gardner and private individuals in the EU. Two things to watch out for:
- You, or your broker ($$$), will have to travel to the inbound airport cargo terminal. They tend not to move firearms from bonded to bonded warehouse, although they should be able to. Having a direct flight to your nearby airport is key. In the case of Holts, it’s direct flight from London.
- None of this addresses the inherent risk with purchasing at auction, from photos, descriptions and what additional information you can get beyond the catalog listing. I’ve seen discrepancies from essentially all the auction houses.

Good to know! Thanks!