HOWDAH Pistols for stopping the charge

[Ridge Runner]

Im talking to a gunsmith about doing some work of the Pedersoli Alaskan. First I want to "blue" it.. Im sure the hard chrome is good for the costal conditions of Alaska; but I really doubt its ever going to be used as a Howdah in Alaska, at least not in 45Colt. Im thinking about just having the barrels "blued" (Ceracoat) and leaving the receiver "silver". I kinda like the two tone, although Im not sure about the historically accuracy, (or if that matters). My thinking about just doing the barrels is because it is a simple job, as oppose to completely stripping the frame.

What I know at this point is that it will handle 45 Colt with no recommendations about only using certain loads. It will also shoot 3" 410 shot shells; but they are even lower power than 45 Colt. I have Full length brass shells loaded with slugs (Russian made). Ive tried to load bullets in the 410 shells; but havent found any size that will work. I had some 45 Colt brass made that is 3" long, thinking that I could load 45 Colt bullets; but theres too much taper to fit the 410 shell.

I havent tried 454 Casull. Im not sure if they will fit OR if the gun can handle the extra pressure. Ive been comparing specs of 45 Colt vs 45-70. Assuming the gun can handle the load, then theres the issue of 45-70 having a larger and thicker rim. Sooo assuming its possible, 454 Casul seems the simplest "upgrade" AND is it really worth the effort?

I toyed with the idea of 450 Bushmaster. Its a rebated rim and that means extractor modification, again assuming the Pedersoli can handle it. I do think 450 Bushmaster has the power that is needed for a Howdah, if not the rim

Suggestions?

Contact Ballistic Products. They sold, or use to, brass cases in .410, 16, 20, 12 gauge I have one or two boxes of 12 gauge and I think still have one or two boxes in 16 gauge.

Try loading 41 cal bullets with plastic wad into your 410 plastic hulls. This may also help with the brass. Remember your COAL is 2 3/4 to 3 inches, depending on chamber length.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Contact Ballistic Products. They sold, or use to, brass cases in .410, 16, 20, 12 gauge I have one or two boxes of 12 gauge and I think still have one or two boxes in 16 gauge.

Try loading 41 cal bullets with plastic wad into your 410 plastic hulls. This may also help with the brass. Remember your COAL is 2 3/4 to 3 inches, depending on chamber length.

Got to thinking I should have gone more in depth.

The object is to load the brass cartridge to look the same as reloading any bullet, except the loading process is the same as a shotshell:

Prime, powder charge, over powder card, felt wadding to base of shot cup, top of shot cup flush with brass case mouth, may need to trim shot cup to 3/8 to 1/2 the length of the bullet depending on bullet length, seat bullet, light crimp around bullet as with any other cartridge bullet.

If reloading using a plastic cup with a honeycomb wad attached like a Winchester AA or similar may just need to add a second over powder card or a 1/2 inch dry or a (Oxyoke or similar) prelubed felt wad, seat bullet and light crimp.

Unlike cartridge ammunition shotshells use a much smaller amount of powder in a large case thus the need for over powder card(s), felt wadding, plastic shot cup, to fill the excess air space and insure even powder ignition.

For powder charge information refer to a shotshell reloading manual for reloading 410 slugs.

Because shotguns are not designed for high pressures as cartridge firearms, reloading slugs in the manner I described has the potential to increase CUP. Another pressure factor is dependent on the barrels being smooth or rifled. Smoothbore means less bullet friction, less resistance, less retained pressure. Rifled bore means more bullet friction, more sustained gas pressure. Starting with the minimum powder charge work your loads up gradually. Doing the math a 41 cal bullet, equivalent to 5/8 ounce slug would be 273 grains.

Formula:
1 pound = 7000 grains ÷ 16 ounces/ pound = 437.5 grains/ ounce ÷ 8 = 54.6875 grains.

Note: the reason to the divisor 8 is that slugs are generally defined in 8ths of ounces, ie. 5/8, 3/4 or 6/8, 7/8, 1 or 8/8, 1-1/4 or 9/8, etc.

1/2 or 4/8 ounce slug: 54.6785 × 4 = 218.75 grain bullet

5/8 ounce slug: 54.6785 × 5 = 273.4375 grain bullet.

3/4 or 6/8 ounce slug: 54.6785 x 6 = 328.125 grain bullet

7/8 ounce slug: 54.6785 × 7 = 382.8125 grain bullet

For the 410 caliber shotgun, reloading brass cases, with jacketed bullets, I would recommend bullets in the 200 to 300 grain range.

 

[EDELWEISS]

I had hoped to be able to load the brass shot shells like a pistol/rifle cartridge (ie-with the bullet exposed). So far I havent been able to accomplish that for several reasons. The biggest being, and bullet I have tested that will "fit" the 410 shell is too small for the 45 caliber barrels. Its sorta like firing a 7mm-08round in a 308 barrel. it does go BANG, It doesnt the gun BUT its of little to no value as it doesnt engage the rifling and acts like an underbored slug.

For those not familiar, the Pedersoli 45/410 has rifled barrels.

Ballistic Products among others sell MagTech full length brass shot shells. They are made in Brazil and come in 410, 28, 20, 16, and 12ga (perhaps more). They use pistol primers. Rocky Mountain Cartridge Co makes pretty much any brass cartridge from scratch. They have a loooong list of cartridges (many of which Ive never heard of or seen). They arent cheapbut where else are you gonna find something as obscure as 62 Manchester or 225x57 Snickerdoddle....

 

[Boone66]

I had hoped to be able to load the brass shot shells like a pistol/rifle cartridge (ie-with the bullet exposed). So far I havent been able to accomplish that for several reasons. The biggest being, and bullet I have tested that will "fit" the 410 shell is too small for the 45 caliber barrels. Its sorta like firing a 7mm-08round in a 308 barrel. it does go BANG, It doesnt the gun BUT its of little to no value as it doesnt engage the rifling and acts like an underbored slug.

For those not familiar, the Pedersoli 45/410 has rifled barrels.

Ballistic Products among others sell MagTech full length brass shot shells. They are made in Brazil and come in 410, 28, 20, 16, and 12ga (perhaps more). They use pistol primers. Rocky Mountain Cartridge Co makes pretty much any brass cartridge from scratch. They have a loooong list of cartridges (many of which Ive never heard of or seen). They arent cheapbut where else are you gonna find something as obscure as 62 Manchester or 225x57 Snickerdoddle....

You may have to use a healed bullet. On the other hand, maybe expand the neck of the brass out, to just fill the chamber. Brass shells are thinner then standard shotgun shells. Also, have you slugged your bore? I have a cheap Comanche 410/45, I guess I'll have to get some brass shells and take up this quest also

 

[EDELWEISS]

Honestly Im not a huge fan of using the 410 shells (at least not the 3"). They just done seem to have the "right" height/weight proportions (too long and too thin). Short and fat seems more correct; but I guess Im just bitching now Hahaha

 

[Rez Exelon]

Does this count as a Howdah pistol? It's a 500 Bushwhacker 5 shot revolver by TII armory. From a 10" barrel it's supposed to be equivalent to 470NE ballistics.

So stupid that it exists, but yes, I am in line to buy one

 

[EDELWEISS]

Does this count as a Howdah pistol? It's a 500 Bushwhacker 5 shot revolver by TII armory. From a 10" barrel it's supposed to be equivalent to 470NE ballistics.

So stupid that it exists, but yes, I am in line to buy one

View attachment 599609

Hahahaha Well I guess so and maybeeeee not.

It certainly has the stopping power or perhaps too much? I suppose 5 shots is OK; but really too many, since a Howdah is meant for the final charge (measured in bad breath range). My experience is too many shots on hand means shooting to soon and perhaps not as effectively. Misses and poor hits dont count. Hits that STOP are hits to the brain or spine (maybe shoulder maybe hips--maaaaaybe)

I suspect this gun is more of a hunting handgun or a cash sponge for guys like us that just have to have one....Its not MY idea of a Howdah

 

[Ridge Runner]

I had hoped to be able to load the brass shot shells like a pistol/rifle cartridge (ie-with the bullet exposed). So far I havent been able to accomplish that for several reasons. The biggest being, and bullet I have tested that will "fit" the 410 shell is too small for the 45 caliber barrels. Its sorta like firing a 7mm-08round in a 308 barrel. it does go BANG, It doesnt the gun BUT its of little to no value as it doesnt engage the rifling and acts like an underbored slug.

For those not familiar, the Pedersoli 45/410 has rifled barrels.

Ballistic Products among others sell MagTech full length brass shot shells. They are made in Brazil and come in 410, 28, 20, 16, and 12ga (perhaps more). They use pistol primers. Rocky Mountain Cartridge Co makes pretty much any brass cartridge from scratch. They have a loooong list of cartridges (many of which Ive never heard of or seen). They arent cheapbut where else are you gonna find something as obscure as 62 Manchester or 225x57 Snickerdoddle....

Please clarify:

Are you trying to shoot the 410 cartridge out of a 45 Colt chamber?

OR

Are you wanting to make a 41 caliber cartridge for the 410 shotgun?

You mixing apples and oranges.

You can purchase the Lee Precision 410 -195 - Swc, double cavity bullet mold to make the proper size bullet/slug for the 410 brass case.

Hence the apples:

If you are wanting to use jacketed 41 caliber bullets as slugs you will need to use .409 - .414 diameter bullets.

Hence the oranges:

45 caliber .451, .452, .454, bullets will work in a .410 rifle barrel.

The .410 aka 41 caliber will not work properly in a 45 Colt caliber.

The .410 shotgun Is Not a Gauge It Is a Caliber. The only "shotgun" that is a designed caliber. All other shotguns are designated gauges or bores and can be cross referenced to caliber. ie. 12 gauge = 68, 69, 70 caliber,
20 gauge = 60, 61, 61.5, 62 caliber,
10 gauge = 77, 77.5, 78, 79 caliber

Using your comparison:
7mm is the caliber the 08 is the 308 brass necked down to 7mm.

7mm caliber = .284 diameter
.308 caliber = .308 (7.62mm) diameter

.308 calibers:
308 = 308 Winchester aka 7.62 x 51 NATO
30-30
30-06
7.5 x 54mm MAS
300 Savage
307 Winchester
30-40 Krag
And a dozen plus more

308 Russian calibers:
308 - .312 (long) = 7.62 x 54R
308 (short) = 7.62 x 39
308 (pistol) = 7.62 x 25

The 45 Colt brass has the same base measurement as the 410 shell base measurement. Because the 45 Colt is a short cartridge it works in the longer chamber of the 410. Because of the longer brass 410 narrows down, has a narrower body is why the 410 does not work in the 45 Colt.

Unlike shotgun bores that generally taper to the muzzle, rifled bores are relatively symmetrical / uniform from chamber (where the chamber and rifling of the barrel meet) to the muzzle.

.308 - .284 = .024 ÷ 2 = .012 gap around a 7mm bullet. The gas pressure/ energy is escaping around the bullet faster than the bullet is traveling down the barrel.

270 Winchester, bullet diameter of .277.
7mm bullet diameter.284.

.284 - .277 = .007
Now it's just the opposite effect where the 7mm bullet is larger in diameter than the bore, the gas pressure/ energy is more contained pushing the 7mm bullet at a greater velocity than the .277 bullet and also creates greater internal/ outward pressure on the barrel and bolt creating a hazardous situation until the bullet exits the muzzle allowing all that excess gas pressure/ energy to escape.

I strongly recommend for your safety that you study and learn more about firearms, ballistics, ballistic data, caliber equivalence, staying within safe pressure limits, etc. before you start any actual hands on applications.

 

[Boone66]

Honestly Im not a huge fan of using the 410 shells (at least not the 3"). They just done seem to have the "right" height/weight proportions (too long and too thin). Short and fat seems more correct; but I guess Im just bitching now Hahaha

They can be trimmed down to 2 1/2, that would give room for the bullet to stick out and still have room for bp, or shotgun powder and fiber wads. I'll try and get some 410 shells ordered and play with it also. If nothing else, they can be trimmed back, until they work with a .451 non healed bullet. I have Kerr bullets that may work as healed bullets. Nothing to do but try. I like the idea though.

 

[Boone66]

Please clarify:

Are you trying to shoot the 410 cartridge out of a 45 Colt chamber?

OR

Are you wanting to make a 41 caliber cartridge for the 410 shotgun?

You mixing apples and oranges.

You can purchase the Lee Precision 410 -195 - Swc, double cavity bullet mold to make the proper size bullet/slug for the 410 brass case.

Hence the apples:

If you are wanting to use jacketed 41 caliber bullets as slugs you will need to use .409 - .414 diameter bullets.

Hence the oranges:

45 caliber .451, .452, .454, bullets will work in a .410 rifle barrel.

The .410 aka 41 caliber will not work properly in a 45 Colt caliber.

The .410 shotgun Is Not a Gauge It Is a Caliber. The only "shotgun" that is a designed caliber. All other shotguns are designated gauges or bores and can be cross referenced to caliber. ie. 12 gauge = 68, 69, 70 caliber,
20 gauge = 60, 61, 61.5, 62 caliber,
10 gauge = 77, 77.5, 78, 79 caliber

Using your comparison:
7mm is the caliber the 08 is the 308 brass necked down to 7mm.

7mm caliber = .284 diameter
.308 caliber = .308 (7.62mm) diameter

.308 calibers:
308 = 308 Winchester aka 7.62 x 51 NATO
30-30
30-06
7.5 x 54mm MAS
300 Savage
307 Winchester
30-40 Krag
And a dozen plus more

308 Russian calibers:
308 - .312 (long) = 7.62 x 54R
308 (short) = 7.62 x 39
308 (pistol) = 7.62 x 25

The 45 Colt brass has the same base measurement as the 410 shell base measurement. Because the 45 Colt is a short cartridge it works in the longer chamber of the 410. Because of the longer brass 410 narrows down, has a narrower body is why the 410 does not work in the 45 Colt.

Unlike shotgun bores that generally taper to the muzzle, rifled bores are relatively symmetrical / uniform from chamber (where the chamber and rifling of the barrel meet) to the muzzle.

.308 - .284 = .024 ÷ 2 = .012 gap around a 7mm bullet. The gas pressure/ energy is escaping around the bullet faster than the bullet is traveling down the barrel.

270 Winchester, bullet diameter of .277.
7mm bullet diameter.284.

.284 - .277 = .007
Now it's just the opposite effect where the 7mm bullet is larger in diameter than the bore, the gas pressure/ energy is more contained pushing the 7mm bullet at a greater velocity than the .277 bullet and also creates greater internal/ outward pressure on the barrel and bolt creating a hazardous situation until the bullet exits the muzzle allowing all that excess gas pressure/ energy to escape.

I strongly recommend for your safety that you study and learn more about firearms, ballistics, ballistic data, caliber equivalence, staying within safe pressure limits, etc. before you start any actual hands on applications.

These are.rifled 45 colt barrels reamed out to chamber the .410 shell. Only way to have a shotgun in a handgun is with rifled bores, or a tax stamp in America. Original antiques are mostly exempt.

 

[EDELWEISS]

Please clarify.....

Thanks for your reply. Yes I am aware of the issues you outlined. So ill attempt a brief response for clarification. The Pedersoli 45/410 is a 45 caliber pistol with a chamber long enough to accept 410 shot shells; but retains the 45caliber bore, Sooooo shooting smaller bullets (41 caliber etc) do not engage the rifling. That was the example I tried to describe by firing a 7-08 in a 308 rifle.

At one point, Im past that now, I had the idea to use the longer all brass 410 shells loaded with a bullet exposed; BUT as I said that never came to any shootable option.

I have shot 410 slugs from the Pedersoli with underwhelming accuracy and power. Its NOT something Id stand in front of BUT a 45Colt is significantly MORE powerful, and as we are discussing a HOWDAH Pistol power is something that is of interest.

Currently my next attempt at a best compromise is to try a downloaded 460 SW, Perhaps with BP or BP substitute. Using the 460 brass for looks of a longer case and more capacity since using BP

 

[freefall]

Trail Boss may be you friend here.

 

[EDELWEISS]

Member Jack Stevens posted in another thread (https://www.africahunting.com/threads/short-barreled-double-rifles.11153/page-2) that he has a Modern made copy of the Ithaca Auto and Burglar SxS 20 ga with 9" barrels. He added that it shoots slugs as well as shot loads.

First thanks Jack. Now my question is would a 20ga slug (or two) be powerful enough to stop a charging Tiger at arms length? Im inclined to say YES. It certainly would seem to offer more power than anything possible out of the 45/410.....of course that wont stop me from trying a power upgrade for the Pedersoli

 

[freefall]

Could you rechamber your Pedersoli to .45-70 and just load it with .454 bullets?

 

[EDELWEISS]

45-70 would be perfect. It surely would be a gunsmith proposition. The first issue would be the larger/thicker rim. Beyond that I’ll leave the rest up to you ballistic guys

 

[Boone66]

Could you rechamber your Pedersoli to .45-70 and just load it with .454 bullets?

I believe the action wouldn't be strong enough, a 410 Frame is pretty small. Normally a 20 GA or larger, double chopper lump with a greener cross bolt is needed for any rifle cartridge, some under levers are a exception to the rule. It all.depends on how the action locks up and strength of the fence. Bolt thrust on the 45-70 is a large area and has to be taken into consideration.

 

[EDELWEISS]

Soooo, some officially unscientific testing shows that a loaded BUT unfired 460 round will fit the Pedersoli. NOW the plan is to find a safe load with BP or BP substitute or Trail Boss or or or. Id like to have something at least as hot as modern 45 Colt defensive loads.

 

[Boone66]

Soooo, some officially unscientific testing shows that a loaded BUT unfired 460 round will fit the Pedersoli. NOW the plan is to find a safe load with BP or BP substitute or Trail Boss or or or. Id like to have something at least as hot as modern 45 Colt defensive loads.

A safe load of bp, you can fill case as much as you can to still seat the bullet, with 3f swiss It will fit. Try the 270gr KEITH style bullet, hard cast. As far as smokeless loads go, I wouldn't go over 45 colt pressure.

 

[EDELWEISS]

A safe load of bp, you can fill case as much as you can to still seat the bullet, with 3f swiss It will fit. Try the 270gr KEITH style bullet, hard cast. As far as smokeless loads go, I wouldn't go over 45 colt pressure.

Thanks for the heads up

 

[EDELWEISS]

A safe load of bp, you can fill case …

Any idea how much a full 460 case will hold. With BP I’d like to get as much power as I can, without blowing unburnt power out the front end. Since the barrels are 11” and it will be pushing a bullet through rifling I’m guessing we might get some good results???