I'm hearing BS - Set me straight on Powders being discontinued!?

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I guess Ross Seyfried and the rest of the vintage loading experts get to win the day? If you can't regulate it with IMR3031 you probably ought not to own it!

I do have enough RL for my personal needs, but a jug of 3031 and some wads will suffice if its antique, pretty, and likes a special diet.

@rookhawk
If all else fails for your old doubles just buy some old military 303 Brit rounds and pull them down and use the cordite sticks .
Where there's a will there's a way.
Bob

 

[CoElkHunter]

I was told by Lonnie at Superior that in December Alliant was sold overseas. I've heard similar rumors as you over the past year, but I have not been able to confirm any of it. Wishing I had some Reloader 17 on hand if it's really not coming back.

Until fairly recently (Nov 2024) Vista Outdoors owned Alliant, Federal, CCI, Speer, Remington ammo. They disinvested those product lines and sold off to a private equity Czech (CSG) company. Concerns were raised but the sale was approved anyway. Supposedly, CSG will continue to manufacture ammo in the U.S. Until they won’t/don’t? A sad state of affairs IMO.

 

[Woodcarver]

The only powder I used that I know was discontinued (in 2022), is H414. When I looked into it, the answer was H414 had always been W760 rebranded. So when Hodgdon bought Winchester powder, they simply quit rebranding and just sell W760; this was directly answered by Hodgdon when I called. If you look in any load manual, any load you find for the 2 lists identical charges, identical velocities, and (if listed) identical pressures. I know there are other rebranded powders out there, but this is the only one I have verified.

 

[BonUm16]

The only powder I used that I know was discontinued (in 2022), is H414. When I looked into it, the answer was H414 had always been W760 rebranded. So when Hodgdon bought Winchester powder, they simply quit rebranding and just sell W760; this was directly answered by Hodgdon when I called. If you look in any load manual, any load you find for the 2 lists identical charges, identical velocities, and (if listed) identical pressures. I know there are other rebranded powders out there, but this is the only one I have verified.

I’ve read this before but have noticed that not all manuals list 760 & 414 as identical in all respects. I don’t use either powder but noticed the discrepancy when looking for a load for my .280 in Lyman’s 49th. Hornady and Nosler manuals as well. Notice the 2+ grain difference in Max charge weights for 30-06 in the Hornady data.

I’m not arguing that Hodgdon says they’re the same, just that I have seen differing data in numerous manuals.

 

[akrifleman]

I’ve read this before but have noticed that not all manuals list 760 & 414 as identical in all respects. I don’t use either powder but noticed the discrepancy when looking for a load for my .280 in Lyman’s 49th. Hornady and Nosler manuals as well. Notice the 2+ grain difference in Max charge weights for 30-06 in the Hornady data.

I’m not arguing that Hodgdon says they’re the same, just that I have seen differing data in numerous manuals.

View attachment 676385

View attachment 676386

W760 & H414 are the same, as is H110 and W296, and so are HP38 and Win231.

Many places have covered this and why lot to lot variations, slight formula changes, and age over time mean that EVERY time a new canister is opened up, you must work up from the safe charge weight. Most every reloading manual has this in the front page. You cannot assume your charge weight from can to can (unless you have sequential canisters). The "book" is *just* a reference.

 

[BonUm16]

W760 & H414 are the same, as is H110 and W296, and so are HP38 and Win231.

Many places have covered this and why lot to lot variations, slight formula changes, and age over time mean that EVERY time a new canister is opened up, you must work up from the safe charge weight. Most every reloading manual has this in the front page. You cannot assume your charge weight from can to can (unless you have sequential canisters). The "book" is *just* a reference.

Did you read what I posted?

I did not dispute that they are the same. The individual I quoted stated that every manual you look in lists all facets of loads with the two “different” powders identically. I was simply pointing out that has not been my experience.

 

[akrifleman]

Did you read what I posted?

I did not dispute that they are the same. The individual I quoted stated that every manual you look in lists all facets of loads with the two “different” powders identically. I was simply pointing out that has not been my experience.

Slow down mate. I read and completely understood, was in agreement, and elaborated further. If I didn't convey that, my apologies.

Particularly since some current manuals do surprisingly not always have the same load listed.

 

[BonUm16]

Slow down mate. I read and completely understood, was in agreement, and elaborated further. If I didn't convey that, my apologies.

Particularly since some current manuals do surprisingly not always have the same load listed.

No worries, mate.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

W760 & H414 are the same, as is H110 and W296, and so are HP38 and Win231.

Many places have covered this and why lot to lot variations, slight formula changes, and age over time mean that EVERY time a new canister is opened up, you must work up from the safe charge weight. Most every reloading manual has this in the front page. You cannot assume your charge weight from can to can (unless you have sequential canisters). The "book" is *just* a reference.

@akrifleman
That's why when I buy say 5-10 one pound canisters if the same powder it out then all in a CLEAN DRY container and mix them together.
That way u know they are all identical when I rebottle them and can use ALL the powder without working up a load for each bottle) batch.
Bob

 

[Hunter4752001]

A note of caution. Sometimes it depends on when the load data was developed and who the actual manufacturer was at that time.

Most powders in America are not made by the company who's name is on the label. Indeed they're frequently made by companies outside of the US but carrying the brand name of the US distribution company. If the distribution company changes supplier the actual powder will be diferent but may still carry the original brand name.

As an example 4227. IMR 4227 was originaly a Dupont manufactured powder. Hodgdon was the distributor. Hodgdon commissioned ADI in Australia to produce a power with similar burn, pressure/time curve etc profile (AR2205). Hodgdon sold that powder as H4227. The chemistry was diferent but performance was 'sort of ' similar. Load data from this era would show diferent loads for the two powders. With the collapse of the original manufacturer of IMR4227, Hodgdon purchased the naming rights to a large proportion of the IMR range. As existing stocks of original IMR4227 were depleted, Hodgdon sold AR2205 under both brand names ie as both H4227 and IMR4227. Data developed from that period would show identcal loads for both powders, however many load manuals were never updated. After a period of time the marketing people at Hodgdon discovered there was greater demand for IMR4227 than for H4227 even though they were the same powder in diferent bottles. As a consequence they started selling AR2205 only under the brand name IMR4227 and listed H4227 as 'discontinued'. More recently, Gneral Dynamics in Canada has received the contract to produce the powder sold by Hodgdon as IMR4227. This will be diferent from the earlier versions if for no other reason than diferent machiinery, environmental factors etc. Whether load data is ever updated remains to be seen.

The same applies to a large percentage of powders marketted in the US. The actual brand name is little more than a flag of conveniance. The powders may be made in Canada, Australia, Eurpoe etc. Any change in cost basis, transport cost, regulations etc could result in the supply contracts being changed to diferent companies and hence the powders will be diferent even if the performance is similar and the 'brand name' the same.

 

[meigsbucks]

I’ve read this before but have noticed that not all manuals list 760 & 414 as identical in all respects. I don’t use either powder but noticed the discrepancy when looking for a load for my .280 in Lyman’s 49th. Hornady and Nosler manuals as well. Notice the 2+ grain difference in Max charge weights for 30-06 in the Hornady data.

I’m not arguing that Hodgdon says they’re the same, just that I have seen differing data in numerous manuals.

View attachment 676385

View attachment 676386

They told:me the same , yet I don’t get the same velocity or accuracy from 760 as I said from H414 in a couple of rounds.

 

[Jack Stevens]

You know since Covid the allegations have piled thick on powder and primer suppliers. The stupid things I've heard could fill books, including they are all woke, they only want to make gay bullets, etc. <Insert your favorite stupid allegation>

I've heard from several people that Reloder powders are done, now only making military powders. Could someone please cite the source as pertains to Reloder powders? It sounds like they have high demand and are honoring government contracts first, versus saying civillian powders are evil and they'll never make them again.

I've heard this tale at least ten times in the past 6 months and I'm curious what the facts actually are?

Sincerely,

Reloder 15 and Reloder 19 fan-boy

Heard IMR 4320 got cancelled. Supposedly was found in possession of MAGA gear.

Very sad.

 

[CBH Australia]

The only powder I used that I know was discontinued (in 2022), is H414. When I looked into it, the answer was H414 had always been W760 rebranded. So when Hodgdon bought Winchester powder, they simply quit rebranding and just sell W760; this was directly answered by Hodgdon when I called. If you look in any load manual, any load you find for the 2 lists identical charges, identical velocities, and (if listed) identical pressures. I know there are other rebranded powders out there, but this is the only one I have verified.

Varget is another that is produced for Hogdon. It is made in Australia by ADI a company owned by Thales group.

H4831 and at least one other are sourced from ADI and bottled by Hogdon under a Hogdon label. Actually add Trailboss to that list too.

My next point addresses the OP concerns. Aabout 3 years ago ADI produced pistol powders were not being produced at the time. “Insert rumour here”. This included Trailboss. I read something in print around that time where ADI said they were not doing production runs of listed powders at present. They did not elaborate etc but they have been available again recently so whether it was production runs or limited production I don’t know.

When the great primer shortage was on you could find pistol primers but pistol powders were not available unless you found some private sale at a premium in a location convenient for collection.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I’d sure like to find some 2400. Haven’t seen any in years.

 

[Woodcarver]

I’ve read this before but have noticed that not all manuals list 760 & 414 as identical in all respects. I don’t use either powder but noticed the discrepancy when looking for a load for my .280 in Lyman’s 49th. Hornady and Nosler manuals as well. Notice the 2+ grain difference in Max charge weights for 30-06 in the Hornady data.

I’m not arguing that Hodgdon says they’re the same, just that I have seen differing data in numerous manuals.

View attachment 676385

View attachment 676386

Those one or two discrepancies are what prompted me to call Hodgdon. After I had first been told (not by Hodgdon) they were the same, I went looking and found (very few) of these loads that didn't match. As I had a fair supply of H414 at the time, wasn't overly concerned. But as that supply dwindled, and I couldn't find any H414 anywhere, that prompted the investigation leading to the call to Hodgdon.

They told:me the same , yet I don’t get the same velocity or accuracy from 760 as I said from H414 in a couple of rounds.

Same here. What I have determined is what has been addressed by others here; different lots, with slightly different characteristics. As I have bought by the keg case for years, most of my 414 had been from the same lot for years. When I switched to W760, I had to tweak a 250 Savage load by less than a grain, but the 9.3 load was identical. There's a few cartridges I haven't had a need to load for in recent history that use 414; it will be interesting to see if they require a tweak to the charge or not whenever I have a need to load them.
@Bob Nelson 35Whelen suggestion to blend containers when they aren't from the same lot would go right along with what Michael458 talks about when he fires up to test a new batch of something. When you run out and get more, start low and build back up to verify the new batch of powder. (also a good excuse to shoot more)