In defense of Vintage guns

[CJW]

Beautiful guns everyone.

 

[Hummer]

Great thread. In 1980s I was at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and factory personnel from Steyr brought in AUG rifles and I was on record as not caring them for various reasons and one of the factory types made a comment to me about my opinion stating I did not like Steyr.

We broke for lunch and I went home and brought back by M1905 Mannlicher and I walked up and showed it to them and they could not believe it and had never seen a real Steyr. The were slobbering all over it and one said "Why can we make these now?"

I just found out my friend's M1910 Mannlicher in 8X60 is going to be sold. I have loaded ammo for that rifle beginning in 1984 and I have told them I would like to have it. I sure don't need it at 73 but if the price is right I will give it a loving home with my 9X56.

He brought the rifle into HQ in 84 and I brought it home and kept it locked up in my vault at home for several months when I went back to Washington and carried it to him with 100 rounds. He was very happy. He left gov't service in 1991 and I left in 92 and I have kept him in ammo up until two years ago when I carried my portable reloading set up to his home in Virginia and loaded ammo for him there.

The only thing I worry about is who will get them when I go and as the OP wrote folks now have no clue of fine rifles and their workmanship.

Hopefully we won't get the Corona Crud as we are on a farm 9 miles from the nearest red light and we go out and back quick and clean up soon as we leave a building to include spraying shoes down. Wife was in public health so she is very keen on what to do.

If I can find them I will post a pic of my portable reloading outfit. It is bulky but very substantial though it doesn't look like it would be.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

I just found out my friend's M1910 Mannlicher in 8X60 is going to be sold.

The only thing I worry about is who will get them when I go and as the OP wrote folks now have no clue of fine rifles and their workmanship.

Surely you're aware that 8X60 is not an original chambering for the M1910. All M1910 MS were originally 9.5X57 just as M1908 were 8X56, M1905 were 9X56, M1903 were 6.5X54 as were M1900 prototypes and Y1903 'Greek' models.

Just the same, several MS aficionados can be found at http://forums.**NOT**PERMITTED**.com/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=mannlicher (click link) and I'm sure any one of several would love to provide a good home to any wayward issue of messrs. Mannlicher and Schoenauer.

One advantage of the rebore (and rebarrel, likely) would be 'off the shelf' availability of ammunition for an owner that does not reload, as 8X60 seems to be more easily obtainable and far less expensive than 9.5X57.

By the way, I really enjoyed the account of Steyr rep's being amazed by an original M1905. I hope it inspired them and they pass such inspiration to their designers and engineers.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

My tastes run to the 1898-1901 Magazine Lee Enfield (Lee Speed style) and the 1898 Mauser. Nothing new can ever come up to these two superb actions or rifles built on them

Messrs. Mannlicher and Schoenauer designed, and Steyr built, some fine firearms as well:

Mannlicher Schoenauer Take Down Model, cased.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Just my inflated $0.02 worth.

 

[Major Khan]

Messrs. Mannlicher and Schoenauer designed, and Steyr built, some fine firearms as well:

Mannlicher Schoenauer Take Down Model, cased.

Magnificent rifles . The .375 Mannlicher , in particular ... could crumple even the largest 500 pound charging male royal Bengal tigers with utter impunity.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Rookhawk,

Thank you for the information reference my 318. The rifle has a short barrel length and I wondered if this corresponds with it originally being a removable stock model. The barrel length is 21.5 inches and I have only seen two other Westley Richards 318 in this barrel length, most that I have seen have had a 26 inch barrel.

 

[Hummer]

Interesting. I just did a search for 8X60S and a Brit forum says it was loaded by RWS, Hirtenberger and S&B and that he has one in his shop for sale now he is thinking of keeping.

When my friend brought me the first case it was made by DWM. The thread also says he had one built on a 98 Mauser that he now regrets selling.

I got my dies from RCBS in 84 and there is a new set for sale on ebay now by Hornady.

Above is a Berdan Primed case from my friend's rifle.

For four commercial companies to load ammo and make brass there must have been considerable interest in the caliber for them to go to that trouble. My friend had factory ammo boxes for the RWS. Also two companies are making dies for them.

He said he paid $50.00 a box for them in early 80s and in 2018 I stopped to see him and he told me the last he bought was $150.00 for 20 rds.

His son wants to sell the rifle and I told him I would be interested but likely won't be able to afford it and with the virus situation now might not be wise to spend the money.

His rifle has a very tight chamber. I did not have my borescopes when I had the rifle at my home 35 years ago so could not have a look/see at the chamber. Should I be lucky enough to get it I will sure take a look.

Actually it can be duplicated by having a 8MM Mauser reamer base dimension extended 3MMs and I would have a chamber reamer for making another.

 

[mark-hunter]

I went to check on currency converter "Westley Richards Light model, 318", in 1909 would be valued cca 1.720 pounds of today money,
In 1910 it would be equal as 66 days salary of skilled workman:
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency-converter/#currency-result

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

A 21.5" barrel length is a very "professional hunter" configuration. Did a PH "bob" the barrels? Not sure, but thats the way they liked them, especially for leopards so it would point faster.


This was my 318 WR take down for comparison of a take down barrel design compared to a "removable stock" model.

View attachment 234449

The M1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer stutzen (full stocked carbine) is rather commonly found with an 18" barrel. Here Stoeger offered them in 1939 such alongside 20" barreled stutzen (full stocked carbine) of the MS proprietary calibers (M1903, M1905, M1908, M1910) and for the 'U.S. 1906 Cartridge' (.30-'06):

Mauser competed in same catalog with 20" barreled stutzen:

Steyr called their 'removable stock'' MS a 'Take Down Model' (see post above), though removable stock would seem a more accurate description. Westley Richards called the same system a 'detachable stock' (see other post above).

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

His rifle has a very tight chamber. I did not have my borescopes when I had the rifle at my home 35 years ago so could not have a look/see at the chamber. Should I be lucky enough to get it I will sure take a look.

Actually it can be duplicated by having a 8MM Mauser reamer base dimension extended 3MMs and I would have a chamber reamer for making another.

Here once again, the 1939 Stoeger:

From American Rifleman, Sept. 1963:

 

[Hummer]

Fired case above head diameter was just measured .4695. ,472 must be MMC. Will have to measure my 9X56 Carbine but am going out to walk my daily five miles now.'

Thanks for posting above data.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

I just found out my friend's M1910 Mannlicher in 8X60 is going to be sold. I have loaded ammo for that rifle beginning in 1984 and I have told them I would like to have it. I sure don't need it at 73 but if the price is right I will give it a loving home with my 9X56.

Are you sure that's a M1910?

It seems more likely that it would be what collectors now call an 'M1925' ('High Velocity' per Stoeger) which was built on the longer M1924 action and magazine:

Does the Schoenauer magazine have a 'ring' in it to retain the cartridges? An M1910 does not, M1924 and later did:

At left, M1910 magazine - at right, M1924.

Does it have this roll stamp on the bridge?:

If the bridge is marked 8X60 rather than M1910, it is an original 'M1925' and not an altered M1910:

 

[Hummer]

Says M1910 like above pic and looks just like the rifle in the ad and has scope mounts as well. There is nothing on it about caliber.

 

[Aaron N]

A question for our resident experts,

Seeing as not everyone can afford a vintage Rigby, or Holland or Holland, are there any "sleeper" vintage rifles out there that will hold their value over the long term, but not break the bank?

 

[Velo Dog]

A question for our resident experts,

Seeing as not everyone can afford a vintage Rigby, or Holland or Holland, are there any "sleeper" vintage rifles out there that will hold their value over the long term, but not break the bank?

Hello Aaron Nietfield,

Being no expert, only a shade tree rifle enthusiast who leans mostly toward Mausers, doubles and single shots, my thoughts are to be taken with a grain of pepper no doubt.

At any rate, IMO the Whitworth Mauser, assembled in Manchester England (and so marked on the left wall of the action), in caliber 375 H&H is a very good buy these days.
Usually found 2nd hand in the neighborhood of $1,000.us, (if in un-modified condition) seem to hold their value over the years.
If modified very much (muzzle brake, re-chambered to some so-called “improved” cartridge, barrel cut short, etc., etc), the resale value drops sharply.
However, internal reinforcing of the stock, (against recoil splitting behind the tang) if done by a professional Gun Smith, will not show on the outside
That inside the stock modification is a good thing and will not detract from the resale value.

That said, if originally made in .375 caliber but ruined by gouging out the chamber, or sawing off the barrel, one might be able to buy it real cheap and a simple re-barrel and re-fitting of the original “express sights” could provide a fellow with a decent .300 H&H in the end.
They were also made in .458 Winchester but, IMO the .458 needs weight added, as recoil is very “sporting” in this powerful caliber for such a light weight (8.5 to 9 pound) rifle.

Note:
I once saw one in 7mm Remington Magnum that appeared to be factory original but can’t seem to locate another one in that caliber so, I’ve no idea how many / if any in this caliber are out there, on the used market today.

Moving right along, the real steal these days are BRNO Model 6o2 Magnum and BRNO 600 (standard calibers).
Not found for sale every day here in the US, (especially the 600 in caliber 7x64 Brenneke) but, both the 602 and 600 do show up sometimes, on gunsinternational.com and other web sites that sell guns.
Likewise, they usually sell in the $1,000.us range, or a bit more, when found un-modified.

The ones from the late 1970’s / early 1980’s often had a garish shaped stock on them, resembling a Weatherby profile, from that same “disco era” but at other times these two model BRNOs were thankfully stocked in more classic looking lines.
The modernistic looking “disco stocked” ones sometimes go for a little less money, but not much less.
And, they do have enough wood there to reshape into decent looking pieces of work, if a fellow has the skill and the time to rasp and sand it into something traditional.

The earliest versions of these two models were available with a flip-up peep sight that, was cleverly made at the factory, as part of the rear “square bridge”.
When not in use, this sight pops down flush with the top of the “square bridge” clearing the way for scoping these rifles.

If the unwashed masses ever figure out what very fine rifles these BRNOs are, soon thereafter, they’ll probably list much higher.

Upon returning from my last trip to Africa, my favorite gun shop here in Anchorage had a 602 Magnum .375 that someone had sawed the barrel off of to 20”.
The asking price was $600.
I was broke plus soon to owe $ for taxidermy and freight costs so, could not make an offer.
I wanted it sorely though and would’ve had it re-barreled to .300 H&H.

There are other BRNO models available but these seem to have been “discovered” and sell in the $2,000. range, sometimes higher (still good buys nonetheless if one can afford them).

None of these above mentioned rifles are comparable to best grade / “bespoke” London built rifles.
However, for blue collar people like myself, I have had very good luck with the above makes/models, both as hunting rifles and holding their value for selling later, as time passes.

Since CZ (similar to but not the same as the BRNO models mentioned) announced their intention to cease production of their controlled round feed (“CRF”) Model 550, perhaps these will see upward pricing one of these days.
However, CZ made so many of them that, it will likely be awhile until prices increase by much.
That said, my best guess is that the 550 FS (full stocked to the muzzle / 20” barrel) in classic calibers, especially 7x57 and 6.5x55 will gain value, perhaps a little faster than their standard model 550s will ?

They did not make as many FS versions as they did their standard rifle version.
Plus, many of their standard version 550’s in non-magnum calibers were made with no iron sights, leaving them IMO looking a bit like unfinished gunsmith projects.
Furthermore, these half baked looking rifles, although appropriately stocked with walnut, sadly had a bizarre checkering pattern applied to the forearm that, was slashed with several ribbons or stripes of non checkered wavy lines, separating the checkering into small, odd looking little patches - weird.

I guess I’ve rambled on plenty by now so, will stop.

Best regards,
Paul.

 

[Aaron N]

Hello Aaron Nietfield,

Being no expert, only a shade tree rifle enthusiast who leans mostly toward Mausers, doubles and single shots, my thoughts are to be taken with a grain of pepper no doubt.

At any rate, IMO the Whitworth Mauser, assembled in Manchester England (and so marked on the left wall of the action), in caliber 375 H&H is a very good buy these days.
Usually found 2nd hand in the neighborhood of $1,000.us, (if in un-modified condition) seem to hold their value over the years.
If modified very much (muzzle brake, re-chambered to some so-called “improved” cartridge, barrel cut short, etc., etc), the resale value drops sharply.
However, internal reinforcing of the stock, (against recoil splitting behind the tang) if done by a professional Gun Smith, will not show on the outside
That inside the stock modification is a good thing and will not detract from the resale value.

That said, if originally made in .375 caliber but ruined by gouging out the chamber, or sawing off the barrel, one might be able to buy it real cheap and a simple re-barrel and re-fitting of the original “express sights” could provide a fellow with a decent .300 H&H in the end.
They were also made in .458 Winchester but, IMO the .458 needs weight added, as recoil is very “sporting” in this powerful caliber for such a light weight (8.5 to 9 pound) rifle.

Note:
I once saw one in 7mm Remington Magnum that appeared to be factory original but can’t seem to locate another one in that caliber so, I’ve no idea how many / if any in this caliber are out there, on the used market today.

Moving right along, the real steal these days are BRNO Model 6o2 Magnum and BRNO 600 (standard calibers).
Not found for sale every day here in the US, (especially the 600 in caliber 7x64 Brenneke) but, both the 602 and 600 do show up sometimes, on gunsinternational.com and other web sites that sell guns.
Likewise, they usually sell in the $1,000.us range, or a bit more, when found un-modified.

The ones from the late 1970’s / early 1980’s often had a garish shaped stock on them, resembling a Weatherby profile, from that same “disco era” but at other times these two model BRNOs were thankfully stocked in more classic looking lines.
The modernistic looking “disco stocked” ones sometimes go for a little less money, but not much less.
And, they do have enough wood there to reshape into decent looking pieces of work, if a fellow has the skill and the time to rasp and sand it into something traditional.

The earliest versions of these two models were available with a flip-up peep sight that, was cleverly made at the factory, as part of the rear “square bridge”.
When not in use, this sight pops down flush with the top of the “square bridge” clearing the way for scoping these rifles.

If the unwashed masses ever figure out what very fine rifles these BRNOs are, soon thereafter, they’ll probably list much higher.

Upon returning from my last trip to Africa, my favorite gun shop here in Anchorage had a 602 Magnum .375 that someone had sawed the barrel off of to 20”.
The asking price was $600.
I was broke plus soon to owe $ for taxidermy and freight costs so, could not make an offer.
I wanted it sorely though and would’ve had it re-barreled to .300 H&H.

There are other BRNO models available but these seem to have been “discovered” and sell in the $2,000. range, sometimes higher (still good buys nonetheless if one can afford them).

None of these above mentioned rifles are comparable to best grade / “bespoke” London built rifles.
However, for blue collar people like myself, I have had very good luck with the above makes/models, both as hunting rifles and holding their value for selling later, as time passes.

Since CZ (similar to but not the same as the BRNO models mentioned) announced their intention to cease production of their controlled round feed (“CRF”) Model 550, perhaps these will see upward pricing one of these days.
However, CZ made so many of them that, it will likely be awhile until prices increase by much.
That said, my best guess is that the 550 FS (full stocked to the muzzle / 20” barrel) in classic calibers, especially 7x57 and 6.5x55 will gain value, perhaps a little faster than their standard model 550s will ?

They did not make as many FS versions as they did their standard rifle version.
Plus, many of their standard version 550’s in non-magnum calibers were made with no iron sights, leaving them IMO looking a bit like unfinished gunsmith projects.
Furthermore, these half baked looking rifles, although appropriately stocked with walnut, sadly had a bizarre checkering pattern applied to the forearm that, was slashed with several ribbons or stripes of non checkered wavy lines, separating the checkering into small, odd looking little patches - weird.

I guess I’ve rambled on plenty by now so, will stop.

Best regards,
Paul.

Your ramblings are always welcome Paul!

I agree that the BRNO, and Interarm rifles are excellent rifles, I have two BRNO's and love them. I would consider both as a working rifle though, so I guess what I'm wondering is what would be the next step up in the older rifles? A great classic that is a beautiful piece of gunsmithing, but doesn't have a premier name gold leafed onto the quarter rib?

 

[Velo Dog]

Your ramblings are always welcome Paul!

I agree that the BRNO, and Interarm rifles are excellent rifles, I have two BRNO's and love them. I would consider both as a working rifle though, so I guess what I'm wondering is what would be the next step up in the older rifles? A great classic that is a beautiful piece of gunsmithing, but doesn't have a premier name gold leafed onto the quarter rib?

Pre-War Mannlicher - Schoenauer hunting rifles and M98 Pre-War Oberndorf hunting rifles ?

 

[archerman]

Hi,

Here are pictures of a classic Custom Griffin and Howe M1903 Springfield in caliber 30.06.. SN indicates the rifle was built in 1922 at the Springfield armory in Illinois . Back in the 20/30/40/50s a person belonging to the NRA could buy a surplus army issued weapon, have it shipped ( in this case) to Griffin and Howe of New York and they would customize it. This usually meant, fitting a new hand-made stock of imported walnut to fit customer specifications, polishing and reblueing the barrel/action, matting the receiver ring, checkering the bolt handle, fitting a long matted ramp front sight base and special sights ( i.e. Lyman #48 rear peep as on this one) and/or telescopic hunting scope. This generally converted a military musket to the latest and most improved type of hand-made bolt action sporting rifle in its time. A person would be out around $80 to 100 depending on other options like engraving etc.

This rifle was given to me many years ago by my uncle. Over the years the G&H sporterised stock developed some cracks and just did not fit me comfortably, so I did some research and found that the famed Stewart Edward White took one of these to Africa and spent a year or so using it to kill most plains game he encountered. I liked the style and purchaed the stock locally to be fitted to my rifle. All the finish work on the wood was done by me using Birchwood Casey Hand rubbed oil finish and then I sent the stock out to be checkered. I have included pictures here to show the finished work.

Since then I made a trip to Africa and used it on Plains game in the FreeState and Limpopo provinces of So Africa. Shots I took on that trip ranged from 50 to 210+ yds and I never had to take more than one shot on each game animal.

I guess that attests to the legacy of these Classic/Vintage guns.

Original Custom G&H M1903 Springfiield w/ Lyman #48 Sight blank

NeidnerButt Plate w/ storage for Lyman #48 Peep sight when using scope.

G&H Scope Sidemount

Bolt Open, checkered bolt knob, and view of Lyman#48 rear peep sight with blank for use when mounting scope

New Stewart Edwad White custom stock (English Walnut) ... fitted but unfinished...(notice shadow cheekpiece...an improvement for me, & Schnabel Forend tip). I added a Pachmayr Decelerator recoil pad.

My M1903 Springfiled fitted with Stewart Edward White Stock and Original Kahles 4x Scope with G&H Scope Mount and rings.

My M1903 Springfield showing completed Stock ..checkered, finished with Birchwood Casey hand Rubbed oil finish (30 Coats) and new Redfield 2x7 Revolution Scope on same G&H detachable mount and rings.

Red Hartebeest shot in So Africa at 200 yds

Black wildebeest shot at just over 206 yds in FreeState, So Africa

 

[ms86]

Aaron,

I guess it depends on what you define as "break the bank" or a "sleeper" rifle. I personally own 2 Oberndorf Mauser Type B rifles, one made in 1921 and one made in 1940, both of them were not cheap but also not outrageously expensive like some "best" quality rifles or even new high-end sporters today, yet I would put their fit and finish up against any of those. The Type Bs are the most common and can be found in price ranges of $2000-$4000 so I guess make of that what you will - I think it's a really great value, and will go up over time if cared for. I also would say there is a good market for 2nd hand Griffin and Howes and also pre-64 M70s I think will continue to go up in value.

You might also consider Husqvarna rifles like their 640 or 1640 rifles, these were built on Mauser/modified Mauser actions and while not being super flashy in terms of wood or engraving or anything like that are extremely reliable and functional hunting rifles. I enjoy collecting Scandinavian rifles and I think they are underrated (Schultz and Larsen from Denmark or Kongsberg from Norway are also solid choices if looking at post WW2 rifles).

Like others have posted here I think the craftsmanship you get from those vintage rifles is second to none. They just don't make them like they used to (so I've heard).