Introduction Double Rifle Recommendations?

[AkMike]

Not really, I've found some for less than that and full Nitro rifles. Just don't get in a rush and shop around.

 

[cal pappas]

Mike is correct. Take your time and you'll find the right rifle. Don't rule out a bpe double. Most folks don't want an exposed hammer Junes under lever rifle. They overlook the facts of great prices, accuracy, history, and quality workmanship that any modern rifle can't equal for almost any price. You won't find good deals from dealers and the name dealers always price high. Private sales at gun shows or word of mouth are both excellent methods for finding quality doubles are reasonable prices.
Cal

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Keep it up and I'll tell them the tale of your cousin's cow cape buff.. You know,, Shootaway!

That's one we gotta hear!

So we're bringing his to AH?
Cal

No, let's not do bring that sad story here.

 

[Red Leg]

Mike is correct. Take your time and you'll find the right rifle. Don't rule out a bpe double. Most folks don't want an exposed hammer Junes under lever rifle. They overlook the facts of great prices, accuracy, history, and quality workmanship that any modern rifle can't equal for almost any price. You won't find good deals from dealers and the name dealers always price high. Private sales at gun shows or word of mouth are both excellent methods for finding quality doubles are reasonable prices.
Cal

Unless you are looking for a deer rifle, I would not purchase a BPE. These are not DG rifles. A .500 BPE is a .50 cal black powder rifle which was designed to shoot stag and boar out to about 100 meters. They are fun for there intended purpose, but are not a real good choice for a first PG safari. Nitro for black loads merely duplicate the BP ballistics. You can find nitro express rifles with underlevers and hammers, but again, make sure someone who really understands these rifles physically inspects it before you buy it. They will have had a longer opportunity to be really screwed up than a more modern rifle, and a really nice one will be just as expensive as a hammerless. Most of the bad things that happen to these old rifles can't be seen in a photo - re-soldered or no longer securely soldered barrels - off face - re-chambering (happens a lot with no indication it was done), etc. A novice to doubles (rifles and shotguns) would be wise to buy from an established dealer with a reputation in these guns, or through the use of a buyer who will find the rifle and guarantee its performance. Neither will turn you up a 12k rifle for 2500 dollars. But their expertise will save you a lot of educational investment at gunshows and estate sales.

 

[cal pappas]

Red Leg:
I could not disagree with you more, respectfully, of course.
A .500 bpe or .577 bpe make excellent DG rifles, with the exception of elephant and hippo and rhino. Buffalo, both cape and water, leopard, lion, grizzly, along with moose, elk, bison, etc., are all game for the larger bpe doubles. Myself and friends have taken ours to Africa and there is no problem with them. I agree some old rifles have been messed with but it is easy to spot: calibers and proof marks, barrel ring/chime, etc., are easy and simple methods to check for quality. Most sellers will honestly answer questions but some will wait to be asked rather than offer information. Dealers will price high--that's why they are dealers. A book like my Primer will answer all questions for those new to double rifles.

While there is no doubt doubles are limited to range, I don't think they should be counted out of the picture. I've hunted exclusively with doubles for the past 10+ years. Leopard, lion, croc, and numerous buffalo, bison, and a few hippo and lots of plains game. I used my .600 fro a PG rifle my last trip to SA and Zim. No, I can't make 400 yard shots but my goals are to hunt not to assassinate an long ranges. Moose, grizzly and caribou have been taken in Alaska. An experience shot will use his doubles, bpe or nitro, to 200 yards with lithe problem.

Any who ask, I will evaluate doubles for them if they see a used one that catches their fancy. If a quality rifle is off face a bit, it can be repaired at little cost. The only thing that can't be repaired is a worn or pitted bore. Most lower priced new production rifles are POS, in my opinion. Sabatti's problems were not just with muzzle grinding to try to regulate, the wood to metal fit was poor, the engraving was down by laser or acid etching, the steel was low carbon and in damp weather the action would begin to rust, balance was poor, sights were bulky, regulation and accuracy was ok in some and poor in many others, and the quality of construction was also poor--ribs and sights that come loose, etc. Yet many bought them at 5$K as they wanted a double at a cheap price.

Of course, I'm a bit biased toward vintage doubles from the UK. I'e never regretted selling my Winchester express rifles to make the move toward the old doubles. I've encountered very few problems with the older firearms. Even the high priced doubles from the finest English makers still don't have the quality of older guns--engraving is more bold and not as fine, much of the work is machine done and not hand filed and worked. And, no matter the quality, the history of old rifles is something to behold. I will be posting some of my historical doubles a bi tlater on for all to enjoy. All are welcome to shoot them at our shoots here in AK. If you ever come to Alaska, Red Leg, please make a plan to stop by.
Cheers,
Cal

 

[CTDolan]

The best doubles came out of England, up until the 1920's. After that they still made the best, just not, as a general rule, as good as what came before.

I agree with Cal, find an old bpe, but have someone who knows a thing or two look it over, first. As for workmanship/quality, you'd be extremely hard pressed to do better (even at several times the cost). And, should you find that your rifle has an under-lever with exposed hammers? My God, one could only hope to be so lucky!!!

With regard to ballistics, no worries. There's plenty of good bullets to choose from (I tend to prefer LBT pattern bullets, the LFN and WFN configurations). Cast 'em right and they'll hold together, and drive deep.

 

[Red Leg]

Red Leg:
I could not disagree with you more, respectfully, of course.
A .500 bpe or .577 bpe make excellent DG rifles, with the exception of elephant and hippo and rhino. Buffalo, both cape and water, leopard, lion, grizzly, along with moose, elk, bison, etc., are all game for the larger bpe doubles. Myself and friends have taken ours to Africa and there is no problem with them. I agree some old rifles have been messed with but it is easy to spot: calibers and proof marks, barrel ring/chime, etc., are easy and simple methods to check for quality. Most sellers will honestly answer questions but some will wait to be asked rather than offer information. Dealers will price high--that's why they are dealers. A book like my Primer will answer all questions for those new to double rifles.

While there is no doubt doubles are limited to range, I don't think they should be counted out of the picture. I've hunted exclusively with doubles for the past 10+ years. Leopard, lion, croc, and numerous buffalo, bison, and a few hippo and lots of plains game. I used my .600 fro a PG rifle my last trip to SA and Zim. No, I can't make 400 yard shots but my goals are to hunt not to assassinate an long ranges. Moose, grizzly and caribou have been taken in Alaska. An experience shot will use his doubles, bpe or nitro, to 200 yards with lithe problem.

Any who ask, I will evaluate doubles for them if they see a used one that catches their fancy. If a quality rifle is off face a bit, it can be repaired at little cost. The only thing that can't be repaired is a worn or pitted bore. Most lower priced new production rifles are POS, in my opinion. Sabatti's problems were not just with muzzle grinding to try to regulate, the wood to metal fit was poor, the engraving was down by laser or acid etching, the steel was low carbon and in damp weather the action would begin to rust, balance was poor, sights were bulky, regulation and accuracy was ok in some and poor in many others, and the quality of construction was also poor--ribs and sights that come loose, etc. Yet many bought them at 5$K as they wanted a double at a cheap price.

Of course, I'm a bit biased toward vintage doubles from the UK. I'e never regretted selling my Winchester express rifles to make the move toward the old doubles. I've encountered very few problems with the older firearms. Even the high priced doubles from the finest English makers still don't have the quality of older guns--engraving is more bold and not as fine, much of the work is machine done and not hand filed and worked. And, no matter the quality, the history of old rifles is something to behold. I will be posting some of my historical doubles a bi tlater on for all to enjoy. All are welcome to shoot them at our shoots here in AK. If you ever come to Alaska, Red Leg, please make a plan to stop by.
Cheers,
Cal

Cal, I have read your books (they are great), but I could not disagree more on the .500 BPE. The traditional load doesn't even generate 4k Fp of energy. At 1900 fps you are just asking for a one lung penetration on a buffalo. They were indeed used for tiger and lion, but they were not intended for bigger game. They were truly excellent at rolling over stag and boar. I think of the .500 as the 9.3x74R of the BP era. A general purpose medium not ideally suited for bigger game. I don't believe that you would recommend such a weapon as a first rifle for an African bound double rifle user?

 

[bassasdaindia]

Cal and others , what is your opinion of Merkel doubles , mine is that they are the best value for money with regards to price and quality (IMHO) please correct me if I am wrong ?

sure you do get better doubles but they are a lot more expensive.

 

[spike.t]

Cal and others , what is your opinion of Merkel doubles , mine is that they are the best value for money with regards to price and quality (IMHO) please correct me if I am wrong ?

sure you do get better doubles but they are a lot more expensive.

as i have said before they are good strong well made working double at a reasonable price.

 

[cal pappas]

Gents:
CT: Quality of doubles lessened after WWI and was in serious decline after WWII. Prior to WWII, the decline came as consumers taste declined in engraving styles--not as fine any longer. After the second war, many 'smiths were killed and it took time for the talent to be replaced.

bass: Merkel are fine working rifles but Vermey-Caron are much finer but a bit more $.

Red: I guess it is what one considers dangerous game. I've been kicked on other sites for my statements that buffalo are really not that dangerous. They are cattle and run at the first sight or smell of man. Yes some are tragically killed but the percentage of buff hunted to those that charge is very low. 1900 fps and 440 grains of hard lead or a Woodleigh will penetrate well into a buff. Of course, not elephant, rhino, or hippo. I feel the danger of buff hunting has been magnified by both writers such as Capstick and hunters who return home and beat their chests about the charge they stopped. I'm not the last word in African hunting, but have been there 14 hunts and two traveling vacations and have seen and done much. Many feel buffalo hunting is dangerous, and it can be. Driving is not dangerous but it can be and many are killed driving, too. Buffalo hunting is great fun, both cape and water, and I prefer the water buffalo, but I just don't feel danger when doing so. I think the only dangerous game is brown or grizzly bear, elegant, lion, and hippo on land. And, this is only when stalked up close. Hunters who assassinate their game at 100-400 yards with a 'scoped whiz-bang super magnum are completely out of danger. At long distance, it matters not if the quarry is elephant or impala. Up close, does matter. To the basic disagreement, a .500 or .577 bpe has plenty of killing power for buffalo. Too many have been taken to believe otherwise--both in the old days and today. Yes, there are plenty of more powerful cartridges (such as my .600) but they really are not needed.
Cheers, all, just my opinion. Be gentle as I'm very sensitive.
Cal

 

[CTDolan]

Cal, I have read your books (they are great), but I could not disagree more on the .500 BPE. The traditional load doesn't even generate 4k Fp of energy. At 1900 fps you are just asking for a one lung penetration on a buffalo. They were indeed used for tiger and lion, but they were not intended for bigger game. They were truly excellent at rolling over stag and boar. I think of the .500 as the 9.3x74R of the BP era. A general purpose medium not ideally suited for bigger game. I don't believe that you would recommend such a weapon as a first rifle for an African bound double rifle user?

440 grains of good, hard lead and of the proper configuration will put down (and stop) any buffalo. With the proper components, the penetration is marvelous.

We've come to think that one must have umpteen thousand ft-lbs of energy and a bullet the size of a Volkswagon to put down and stop large, heavy game. Too much history has proven otherwise (and this doesn't even bring into consideration the proliferation of wonderful bullets now at our ready disposal, bullets which kick butt all over the Rigby 416 solid Taylor wrote so glowingly of in his landmark treatise).

Big guns are more common and more affordable now than ever, but that doesn't mean they've suddenly become necessary. What worked 125 years ago will work every bit as well today. The most important thing is developing the skill required to shoot well, consistently (not just at the range).

 

[Red Leg]

440 grains of good, hard lead and of the proper configuration will put down (and stop) any buffalo. With the proper components, the penetration is marvelous.

We've come to think that one must have umpteen thousand ft-lbs of energy and a bullet the size of a Volkswagon to put down and stop large, heavy game. Too much history has proven otherwise (and this doesn't even bring into consideration the proliferation of wonderful bullets now at our ready disposal, bullets which kick butt all over the Rigby 416 solid Taylor wrote so glowingly of in his landmark treatise).

Big guns are more common and more affordable now than ever, but that doesn't mean they've suddenly become necessary. What worked 125 years ago will work every bit as well today. The most important thing is developing the skill required to shoot well, consistently (not just at the range).

Guys - I didn't say a .500 BPE would not kill a buffalo. I have a William Evans Paradox with which I have rolled warthog with ease. I am confident that it "could" kill a buffalo. That doesn't mean that I am taking it hunting for one. The .500 BPE was not designed as a buffalo rifle either. It was a "light" general purpose rifle to supplement the bore calibers (starting with the 10 bore) which were used for the heavier stuff. It indeed does continue to do exactly what it was originally conceived to do. And CT - there is little to discover about pouring and alloying lead today that they didn't know on Bond Street 125 years ago - remember we are talking about a BPE - not a nitro. So could an experienced DG hunter take on those big black tame cattle with one - sure. But going back to the original question, would I advise a first time buyer of a double rifle, intended to be used for DG, to latch onto a .500 BPE? Absolutely not.

By the way Cal, I wish your primer had existed 25 years ago. Excellent book. It would have saved me thousands of dollars of a hard earned double rifle and gun education.

 

[cal pappas]

Thanks for your kind words on my book, Red. It was a joy putting it together and knowing is helps. While I've never kept count, I would guess a dozen or a bit more of my mates have taken cape and water buffalo with a .500 bpe. No doubt the .577 bpe is a better choice, but with a hard lead slug or Woodleigh of .510 diameter and 440 grains it will go through the shoulder of a cape and rest under the skin on the far side. Now I would not do this for hippo and my last two where shot with my .600 along with several buffalo and plains game. Overkill, yes, but fun!
Cheers,
Cal

 

[AZDAVE]

I just finished a safari and used a Sabatti 450NE on my buff and 9.3x74 chapuis on eland and sable. I have also collected a Simson 405 win (German 1920ish manfacture) and a James Woodward 500BPE double. With careful shopping, patience and some horse trading. Was able to get them for between 5500-9K. There are deals to be had but just requires patience. The sabatti's are either one of the best deals going when you get one regulated as well as mine is to what did I get myself into. If you look at one try and make sure you can shoot it first and verify the regulation. I handled a 450/400 Vermey-Caron at dallas safari club this year that I would have traded all 4 for. If you can find a couple guys in your area that shoot doubles and would give you a chance to shoot them that would be ideal. Good luck on your search.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

Double rifle in 450/400Jeffery is my dream. But it is still just a dream.
Witold

 

[zephyr]

It's hard to purchase something sight unseen or without a trail period bu this is at auction July 6th might be worth tossing in a bid or two
http://www.invaluable.com/catalog/s...ng=0&rp=&hi=&rem=FALSE&cs=0&ns=0&isSC=0&row=1

 

[matt85]

im gonna have to agree with Red Leg on the 500 BPE not being a preferred buffalo cartridge. it may work but then again so will a 30-06, but in the end neither cartridges were designed for dealing with thick skinned game. the 500 BPE was/is a medium game cartridge perfect for driven boar or bringing down PG at close range. until the advent of smokeless powder 45 and 50 caliber firearms were the norm for medium game.

now the 577 BPE with a 650gr bullet at 1850fps would work much better but I think id still avoid shoulder shots.

as for cape buffalo not being dangerous game...

-matt

 

[cal pappas]

I agree not preferred, but very adequate. Too many have fallen to think otherwise. Buffalo can be dangerous, so can a whitetail. I've shot about a dozen and am not the last word on the subject, but I've never felt in danger and none of my friends (whose tally is in the hundreds when combined) have never felt in danger. I don't take it as gospel when so many come back from Africa and tell of the charge--buff, lion, elephant. Even Mark Sullivan has stated to me and in his writings 95% of buff run away even when shot. Of there 5% remaining who "charge" I would guess a good percentage to those is the buff just running but in the direction of the hunter. It's kind of the mentality of those who hunt monster whitetail at the Sanctuary or another high fence place and think they did something wonderful bagging a huge buck. Hype sells print but I try to stay away from it in my writings and postings. If it is "dangerous game" or killing recoil from .600s I write like it is even though folks would like to read of my .600 spinning me around 120 degrees, of the buff shot with the .600 being upended or flipped over, of fillings coming loose in their teeth, etc., Hype sells. It did for Capstick and those that followed. Yes, buff have killed many. But they are not dangerous. Driving is not dangerous but many are killed doing so, too. Now, don't get me wrong, I love to hunt buffalo and anything else (but only with a double rifle), but don't think they are really dangerous. Just my opinion from experiences, nothing else.
Cheers,
Cal

 

[spike.t]

cal i agree that in the majority of situations buffalo will behave in a non agressive manor, but the problems apart from when they have been wounded by the person who is hunting them are when they have been caught in a snare, hammered by lion and escaped or got some holes in them , varying from muzzeloaders contents through AK holes and upwards ...whatever the poachers have on hand. this is when it goes to shit very rapidly when following or walking into the animal by accident..........

 

[Red Leg]

Come on guys, when we start comparing buffalo to whitetail we are moving from the sublime to the ridiculous. Unless the victim was driving a car at the time, no one has been killed by a whitetail recently. We have lost two very fine PHs to wounded buffalo in just the last couple of years. I will agree that when everything goes well, which is indeed most of the time, a buffalo will be taken with a minimum of drama. But it doesn't always end that way, and I would never open that engagement with a .500 BPE, and I certainly would never encourage a new DG hunter to begin with such a weapon.