James Leddy safari boots

[jpr9954]

Simply saying “everyone does it so what’s wrong with it” is not a very good argument. Personally it doesn’t matter to me where this type of stuff takes place.

The boots in the OP are almost carbon copies of Courteney’s. I don’t believe using a different sole is enough to say they are their own.

What’s this say about Leddy’s? A storied institution can’t come up with their own design or refuse to blatantly copy another storied institution’s work? They should stick to the western lifestyle products or come up with their own design for a safari boot.

Let's assume that John Rice did have either a design or utility patent on his boots. At most, his boots would have been protected from copy for 20 years or up through 2011. In all likelihood, the best he could have gotten would be a design patent as the function of a lace-up boot has been around a long, long time. So, in reality, that patent would have expired in 2006. Again this is assuming the Courteney boot was patented which according the US Patent and Trademark Office it is not. Their elephant logo is trademarked and that is it.

I look at this as similar to patent drugs v. generic drugs. Once off patent, other drug makers are allowed to manufacture drugs that have the same pharmacological effect as the patent drug. How they get there is between them and the FDA.

Unlike a generic drug, the Al's Safari boots from Leddy's are made with often better quality materials that are tailored to the individual's foot. If I were a wealthy man, I would buy a pair of Courteneys and a second pair from James Leddy and have Rose Anvil do a head to head comparison on YouTube.

However, it is quite obvious that nothing I can say nor that either Philip or MDWest can say will change your mind and we will have to politely agree to have differing opinions on this issue.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

However, it is quite obvious that nothing I can say nor that either Philip or MDWest can say will change your mind and we will have to politely agree to have differing opinions on this issue.

Agreed.

 

[Tanks]

Well, glad this discussion restarted, and I was reminded of Leddy's. I changed our plans, and instead of flying for DSC my girlfriend and I will drive from CA. We will stop there and order a pair of Safari boots each.

BTW, I did want my girlfriend to try Courney's. We stopped at the shop that sells them at Harare last July, very limited inventory and nothing in her size and none of the model she was looking for.

So, I guess it turned out for the best.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

If you want to ignore facts… have at it

I do have to say that the fact that the gentleman who makes them is Rhodesian makes the whole thing worse

 

[TucsonFX4]

I would propose the ideological discussions on this are interesting and worth considering. I don’t necessarily think either side is wrong. I believe the free market (with help from patent law in many cases) is a great driver in innovation and originality.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

The Leddy copy is identical in style even to the point of duplicating the little sewn in label, why do that other than try to gain some marketing advantage? I don't doubt that Leddy makes an excellent product and I am sure that their bespoke capability is an advantage to many. But you can say what you like, copying carries a negative stigma and is in bad taste. I too don't want to get into a bun fight upon this, so this is my opinion for what it is worth, I respect the contra opinions voiced but can't agree. Let's leave it at that.

 

[Tanks]

The Leddy copy is identical in style even to the point of duplicating the little sewn in label, why do that other than try to gain some marketing advantage...

But, they are not doing any mass marketing. Other than a few pics on their web site one wouldn't know that they do Safari boots. http://jamesleddyabilene.com/gallery.html

You are comparing the equivalent of a Bespoke tailor to mass market, Hugo Boss, Zegna etc..

Also, getting inspiration from others is common. Below is a pic of part of my living room at my vacation place on the Mediterranean. I actually took a Restoration Hardware catalog with dimensions etc. to a local furniture shop for them to make the "Cloud Collection" (pic below) including the wrap around bookcase etc.. Just like Leddy's it was higher quality, customized and much less expensive.

Basic cloud collection from RH.

The whole place was RH themed. They even made the wheeled serving cart from RH for me pictured below.

 

[Philip Glass]

Actually.. the generator is not... John Austin Rice has been dead for several years..

The company still exists.. Its managed and run by his wife..

That said.. there are western boot companies in TX that are several generations old.. that still exist.. Leddys for example is 3 generations old... The company existed well before Courteney (which wasn't founded until 1992).. There are several TX boot companies that are more than 100 years old..

If Courteney decides to start making a western boot.. considering Leddy has been making them for more than 85 years.. Is Courteney wrong? Why can courteney copy a well known design and attempt to make it better.. but another company cant?

The original designers of both boots (westerns and safari) are both dead and no longer making boots themselves.. the companies are both still chugging along post the original designers death.. and, the courtnery design isn't exactly original.. take a look at a dozen other African hunting and work boot makers... they all have similar designs.. Courteney just has a reputation for higher quality and comfort...

Then factor in that the Leddy boot isn't actually a true copy... For example, not only are the Leddy boots bespoke and custom made where Courteney does not do that.. You have options on the Leddy boots that Courteney boots don't offer.. for instance, my Leddy's have a box toe.. where courteneys are rounded.. my Leddys have a virbram flat sole where courteney offers their ripple or their lug soles.. (flat vibram isn't an option).. etc..

Correct. Courtney is nothing more than a variation of the very common Vellie shoe that is made all over Souhern Africa by who knows how many companies.

 

[fourfive8]

I have no rooster in this spat - simply outside observation and have never lived in Texas. I have narrow feet with very high arches. I spent a lifetime trying to find decent footwear. The solution seems simple in hindsight- get boots/ shoes of quality leather and simple, basic design that will break in. Turns out the answer hiding in plain sight- the old tried and true Southern Africa “trekking shoe” design. I stumbled upon my solution in Africa- a pair of standard width Courteney Selous I got in Bulawayo years ago and a pair of narrow (B width maybe?) Courteney Safaris from about 3 years ago. Both pair have formed perfectly to my feet and except for wet mud and snow season they are all I wear. IIRC about 200 for the Selous and 300 for the Safaris. In the end, get whatever boot or shoe you want, get what fits best, pay whatever you want and let it be made where ever you want- in the end makes no difference to anyone but the buyer/wearer.

But one of these days, during “touri” season, I do want to see a “ranger” wearing square toe (current fashion) cowboy boots with a high, riding heel accompanied by the current fashion straight flat rain gutter front cowboy hat- stepping out of a brand new, spotless, solid black Escalade… the complete ensemble making a statement.

 

[mdwest]

Reviving this thread to put some additional information out there since there has been some back and forth regarding the ethical/moral side of things and whether or not these bespoke boots are infringing on Courteney turf in some manner, etc..

I didn't know any of this until recently, or I would have posted it much earlier..

So.. here are some facts to consider..

Rice, the founder of Courteney worked for Clarks in the late 1950's.. He left Clarks for a short while for military service.. and also spent some time motorcycle racing around the globe.. then returned to Clarks (he wasn't making a "safari" boot for Clarks.. this is just where he entered the industry, learned the trade, etc)..

Rice moved to Zimbabwe in 1972.. The war was going on however.. so he was not involved in shoe/boot making initially.. and did not open a factory for quite some time after his arrival..

Courteney was founded in 1992.. Rice remained at Courteney until his death (2012)...


Al Dos Santos (the owner of James Leddy Boots) began making his "Safari" boot (the same boot he makes today) in 1972 in Marandellas (Now Maronderra). He called them "Farmer Shoes" back then as they were a common pattern for farmers in the area (neither he, nor Rice came up with the original basic design). The business in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) was called Dos Santos and Sons. Similar shoes were also being made at the same time (early 1970's) by Bata and RK Footwear in Zimbabwe.

Once founded in 1992, Courteney also began making a "farmers" shoe.. (the now beloved hunting boot sought after by international hunters for use in Africa).. a full 20 years after Dos Santos and Sons, Bata, RK Footwear, and others had already been making them..

When Al immigrated to the US, he went to work in the shoe/boot industry, working for other people.. He ultimately bought James Leddy Boots (the Leddy family has been making boots in TX since 1922) from the Leddy family when James Leddy passed away (2008).. he however had already been making "safari" boots in the US long before he owned JLB because people saw that he was wearing his "farmers" boots, commented on them and asked him to make bespoke pairs for them..

Anyway... to summarize the above.. Al has been making these boots since the early 1970s.. others were also making these boots in the 70's... they were a common pattern worn by farmers in the region, and therefore popular.. Courteney was established in 1992.. Rice, the Courteney founder, while he made exceptional footwear, is not the original designer, nor was he the only person in Zimbabwe producing this pattern of boot when his factory opened.. Al has continuously made this pattern of boot for 50 years.. it never went out of production.. he made it under the Dos Santos and Sons flag.. then made them individually.. then began producing them at James Leddy after he bought the business..

There was no "copying" Courteney.. if anything, it looks like Courteney copied what was already a popular design, and simply made it better than everyone else and/or marketed it better than everyone else.. (I would imagine all of the experience Rice brought from Clarks helped to make that happen).. I see no problem with that.. again, looking at earlier discussions.. does anyone really blame Nike when they produce a boot that is extremely similar to something released last year by Converse? If Rice knew the "farmers" pattern would sell (it was already popular) and he knew he could make it better than the competition.. why not produce it?... So why blame Rice for doing something similar to what Bata or RK or Dos Santos was already doing (or whoever else he might have seen a boot from) and trying to improve it?

By the same token.. knowing Dos Santos turned out his first "farmers" boot 20 years before the Courteney factory ever opened its doors.. how does anyone blame him for continuing to produce what he was already making for 2+ decades, after Courteney popularized it with the rest of the world...

FWIW, Al is a former Rhodesian.. who didn't immigrate to the US until he was 35 years old..

 

[TucsonFX4]

Reviving this thread to put some additional information out there since there has been some back and forth regarding the ethical/moral side of things and whether or not these bespoke boots are infringing on Courteney turf in some manner, etc..

I didn't know any of this until recently, or I would have posted it much earlier..

So.. here are some facts to consider..

Rice, the founder of Courteney worked for Clarks in the late 1950's.. He left Clarks for a short while for military service.. and also spent some time motorcycle racing around the globe.. then returned to Clarks (he wasn't making a "safari" boot for Clarks.. this is just where he entered the industry, learned the trade, etc)..

Rice moved to Zimbabwe in 1972.. The war was going on however.. so he was not involved in shoe/boot making initially.. and did not open a factory for quite some time after his arrival..

Courteney was founded in 1992.. Rice remained at Courteney until his death (2012)...


Al Dos Santos (the owner of James Leddy Boots) began making his "Safari" boot (the same boot he makes today) in 1972 in Marandellas (Now Maronderra). He called them "Farmer Shoes" back then as they were a common pattern for farmers in the area (neither he, nor Rice came up with the original basic design). The business in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) was called Dos Santos and Sons. Similar shoes were also being made at the same time (early 1970's) by Bata and RK Footwear in Zimbabwe.

Once founded in 1992, Courteney also began making a "farmers" shoe.. (the now beloved hunting boot sought after by international hunters for use in Africa).. a full 20 years after Dos Santos and Sons, Bata, RK Footwear, and others had already been making them..

When Al immigrated to the US, he went to work in the shoe/boot industry, working for other people.. He ultimately bought James Leddy Boots (the Leddy family has been making boots in TX since 1922) from the Leddy family when James Leddy passed away (2008).. he however had already been making "safari" boots in the US long before he owned JLB because people saw that he was wearing his "farmers" boots, commented on them and asked him to make bespoke pairs for them..

Anyway... to summarize the above.. Al has been making these boots since the early 1970s.. others were also making these boots in the 70's... they were a common pattern worn by farmers in the region, and therefore popular.. Courteney was established in 1992.. Rice, the Courteney founder, while he made exceptional footwear, is not the original designer, nor was he the only person in Zimbabwe producing this pattern of boot when his factory opened.. Al has continuously made this pattern of boot for 50 years.. it never went out of production.. he made it under the Dos Santos and Sons flag.. then made them individually.. then began producing them at James Leddy after he bought the business..

There was no "copying" Courteney.. if anything, it looks like Courteney copied what was already a popular design, and simply made it better than everyone else and/or marketed it better than everyone else.. (I would imagine all of the experience Rice brought from Clarks helped to make that happen).. I see no problem with that.. again, looking at earlier discussions.. does anyone really blame Nike when they produce a boot that is extremely similar to something released last year by Converse? If Rice knew the "farmers" pattern would sell (it was already popular) and he knew he could make it better than the competition.. why not produce it?... So why blame Rice for doing something similar to what Bata or RK or Dos Santos was already doing (or whoever else he might have seen a boot from) and trying to improve it?

By the same token.. knowing Dos Santos turned out his first "farmers" boot 20 years before the Courteney factory ever opened its doors.. how does anyone blame him for continuing to produce what he was already making for 2+ decades, after Courteney popularized it with the rest of the world...

FWIW, Al is a former Rhodesian.. who didn't immigrate to the US until he was 35 years old..

Thanks for all the backstory. I enjoyed reading it.

 

[Philip Glass]

Thanks Al! (My ostrich from Frontier Safaris)

 

[JES Adventures]

Those look awesome, I’ve had it on my list to go get fitted and have a pair made from my alligator skin shot in Texas many years ago. Going to make it a priority now!

 

[Altitude sickness]

I would add that the Courtney boot and every boot of similar design looks like every very basic shoe from as far back as the 1700s. Very basic. Very easy to make. That’s most likely what made them so popular.
Heck my 1970s US Navy “Boondockers” had the same mid ankle basic chuka pattern.

Hundreds of companies make dozens of variations on Chuka style boots. Apparently my Navy Boot camp boondockers go back the the 40s

 

[African Sporting Creations]

This is Jim from African Sporting Creations and for the past 15 years I have been the Courteney Distributor for the USA. I find all this a bit silly. “Brave” people behind key boards say horrible, false things anonymously that they would never say to your face. I have even experienced it on this forum. I take pity on them.

In terms of the issue at hand, I believe they both started making boots, independent of each other, at around the same time as the first “Courteney Boots” were made while the 20+ year War for independence was still active (it ended in 1980) as the GI boots issued kept falling apart. Clark’s of England trained the Courteney Boot founder to be a pattern maker so he built his own-first for himself and his mates and then for others.

Leddy’s appears to be a fine outfit and I actually send people who have foot conditions (hammer toes, bunions etc.) to them. I used to sell them Arno Bernard knives and they always paid on time and were very honorable.

I hand-craft traditional wood shooting sticks and it is beneath me to copy what someone else is doing. Strategic advantage is about doing things others are not willing to do as a result of cost, difficulty or both. I suspect the same is true of the founders of Courteney and Leddy’s.

Everyone should spend more time talking up these two fine company’s so they gain share versus the $100 boots sold at the big boxes.

 

[Tanks]

This is Jim from African Sporting Creations and for the past 15 years I have been the Courteney Distributor for the USA. I find all this a bit silly. “Brave” people behind key boards say horrible, false things anonymously that they would never say to your face. I have even experienced it on this forum. I take pity on them.
...

Jim,
I have been a loyal customer of yours, having spent thousands of dollars in Els leather, compact shooting sticks, Arno Bernard knife and many other items from your shop. Your customer service also has been exceptional.

That being said, in my opinion the Courtney boots are trash. I gave mine away to a Parks ranger in Zim last year. I have never had a pair of boots hurt my feet as bad as those boots have and it took me a week to recover from the pain at the bruised bones at the soles of my feet.

I realize others love those boots, though interestingly. I have yet to see anyone at Zim using them (could be due to cost).

I have no problems repeating my comments in person either.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I’m still in the Peacocke camp on this subject

I agree with Kevin 100%. My favorite of all my Courtney’s? My simple cheapest canvas & cowhide. That way I do not to have hear everyone go, oooh-aaah as I walk past.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Jim,
I have been a loyal customer of yours, having spent thousands of dollars in Els leather, compact shooting sticks, Arno Bernard knife and many other items from your shop. Your customer service also has been exceptional.

That being said, in my opinion the Courtney boots are trash. I gave mine away to a Parks ranger in Zim last year. I have never had a pair of boots hurt my feet as bad as those boots have and it took me a week to recover from the pain at the bruised bones at the soles of my feet.

I realize others love those boots, though interestingly. I have yet to see anyone at Zim using them (could be due to cost).

I have no problems repeating my comments in person either.

This I do not hardly believe, “I have yet to see anyone in Zim using them”, that statement boggles my mind. No other comment needed.

 

[African Sporting Creations]

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

Gale Rice, the owner of Courteney shared that other than fitting a bra, there is nothing more difficult than fitting a pair of shoes or boots.

Who makes the best pizza? Well it depends on what you like….deep dish, thin crust, white, etc. it is the same with boots and your foot contour is just as unique as your taste buds.

We never want anyone to keep anything from us that they do not love. If they did not fit you, you were free to return them as it is impossible for the three lasts they use to fit every single person. Not sure why you had to cross the pond to figure that out, but that is on you.

I have sold in excess of 10,000 pairs of Courteney’s and about 1 in 15 say they are not for them for a variety of reasons-mostly those with problem feet and/or high arches which we can overcome with SOLE insoles if given the opportunity.

Interestingly enough, that is about identical to my experience when I used to sell another brand of premium, custom boots with a very different cut.

About 2/3 of purchasers really enjoy the
Courteney boots and just under 1/3 say they are the most comfortable boots they have ever put on, own 4 or 5 pairs and wear very little else.

We get a number of pics each year of customers on our shooting sticks with the PH beside them and the Courteney logo tag that is above the heel on their boots is usually visible. I will respectfully disagree with you on that point based on those photos and the large number of pairs we sell to PH’s at DSC and SCI.

Thank you for you past support and we do our best to make sure our customers are treated fairly and in a way that leaves them predisposed to coming back for more. In this instance we were never given that opportunity.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

My wife just told me her last hunting camp 4 out of of 6 were wearing Courtneys. 1 Hungarian (first trip to Africa)), 1 visiting hunters wife, she will buy a pair next year when her husband picks up his second pair of Courtney’s. This time it will be from a buff he shot with us this year. Since they hunt, fish and enjoy being in Zimbabwe they stay with us for a month at a time, Courtneys with find time to do her measurement and have a pair of boots made from her husbands buff from this year.

Lon