Kreighoff Classic Big Five

[Pondoro]

I shoot the K gun in .470 TOBY458, so I am obviously biased. Mine was custom ordered with a blued action. I really dislike the nickel plating to begin with, and even more when it starts chipping away

.470 NE Double Rifle

• One Day...
• Nov 5, 2018
• 2

But I will try to be objective.

Regarding caliber...

To each their own!

I fully acknowledge the popularity of the .40+ cal double rifles, but I do not differentiate between buff or elephant, I differentiate between "killing" and "stopping".

I suspect that like the .404 Jeffery bolt action rifles, the 450/400 doubles are popular because they are stepping into big bore territory, while still providing mid-bore recoil. Are they great killers? Absolutely! Are they great "stoppers"? No.
Apparently they have always lacked the frontal area of larger calibers, the bullet weight, and the raw power to fully belong to the club. Most pros for the last hundred years - I mean the pros with literally thousands of elephants and buffalo to their individual credit - have argued that a .45+ caliber 500 gr bullet delivering 5,000 ft/lbs of energy is the right minimal recipe for a charge stopper. The 450/400 delivers a .40 caliber 400 gr bullet at 4,000 ft/lbs. It is simply not enough for a "stopper." Pretty good for a DG rifle, but not for a "stopper."

Like the .416 Rigby (and all its modern derivatives trying to copy it in shorter cases, albeit at significantly higher pressure), the 500/.416 bridges the gap between the .375 and the .45. In so many words, it almost (but not quite) delivers a .450 / .458 / .470 punch (albeit with less frontal area and less energy: 40 cal and 4,700 ft/lbs), with almost the ballistic trajectory of a .375. It can handle a charge (although not being the best at it) and it can still shoot plains game at 200 yards (although not being the best at it), but in which case it really needs to be scoped.
As much as I left the .375 H&H bolt action bandwagon for the .416 Rigby bandwagon, I really am not interested in the 500/416. I am not really sure what the .416 Rigby trajectory does for a by-definition close quarter rifle such as a double. Sure, scoping it helps bridging that gap, but it still will not shoot as accurately as a bolt action at 200 yards, and it will not stop as well as a .450 / .458 / .470 / .500 at close range. A solution in search of a problem?

My personal take is that if someone is going to spend $15,000 to $20,000 (or more) on a double rifle, for that money one would want a dual purpose killer/stopper double. That means a .450 / .470 / .500.

The difference between .450 / .470 / .500 is small enough that I would have bought either of the three, had there been a financial incentive. It ended up being a .470 because that there was nothing to save with a .450 or .500, and .470 ammo is SO MUCH easier to find...

Regarding the safety / cocking mechanism...

The answer is in two parts, because the cocking system acts as both a cocker/decocker and a safety:

1) It is objectively not as easy and unobtrusive to switch ON/OFF as a regular safety is (you need to exert a certain pressure to coil the strikers' springs), so if you are in the habit of switching automatically the safety on/off as you mount/dismount a shotgun or double rifle to your shoulder, it is not as smooth as a traditional safety. I appreciated this smoothness on my previous double, a traditional pre-WWII Jules Burry 450 #2.

2) It is objectively immensely safer than a regular trigger-locking safety when carrying the gun, especially in single file, when muzzle safety can be challenging, because the gun can be fully loaded while fully safe (uncocked), even more so than a firing pin-locking safety (e.g. Mauser or Winchester "3 positions safety," Weatherby safety, etc.) makes a bolt action as close to fully safe as possible while loaded.

Overall, I feel unquestionably safer along the hunt with this system, but I DID have to acquire a new muscle memory reflex to cock it as I mount the gun.

A third part to the answer, is to clarify that contrarily to what has been said by some, when the Kreighoff cocker has been cocked, it remains in the cocked position, even when the gun is opened and reloaded, so there is no requirement to recock the gun after it is opened (as I believe the Blaser S2 requires). Reloads are therefore entirely identical to those with traditional guns: break open, flick the empties out, drop two fresh shells, close, aim, shoot. Or if you do not need to shoot again, you can then decock any time you later want.

So, in summary: it is different; it works; like everything new, it needs to be learned; and, in my view, it is an improvement. I never felt comfortable resting my two hands on top of the muzzles of my .450 #2 - and I always cringe when I see someone do it and trust 100% the trigger safety of their fully loaded double - but I would now feel safe resting my hands on top of my uncocked Kreighoff .470 ... if it was not bad muzzle safety discipline anyway

I fully agree to what you say about the 500/416...it is not a real stopper and recoil is as a .470 (with similar stock and weight..)

I hunt with a S x S shotgun and also own an old british double in .475NE.. When you mount the Krieghoff .470 you flick the cocker/de-cocker as the safety of the two aforementioned guns...perhaps you use half-a-second more on the latter...a small price to pay to get that important safety improvement ..

I am a conservative SOB and love my old English guns/rifles... but we cant deny that the germans have done something very clever here..

 

[Opposite Pole]

I shoot the K gun in .470 TOBY458, so I am obviously biased. Mine was custom ordered with a blued action. I really dislike the nickel plating to begin with, and even more when it starts chipping away

Here is mine in 470NE (and a second set of barrels in 9.3x74R).

The finish on the metal is Nitride finish. I was advised against nickel plating by Krieghoff due to the fact that plating would cover details in engraving.

 

[TOBY458]

The name of the company is KRIEGHOFF, that‘s why the rifle is called KRIEGHOFF CLASSIC BIG FIVE.

Odd, people are interested in a gun from Krieghoff company but unable to spell the name properly.

What about Vilkswagen, Morcedes, BMV, Tramp etc ?

Thanks for the spelling lesson.

 

[TOBY458]

you got pictures of the rifle your looking at

Not really looking at any rifle in particular. Just looking.

 

[crs]

What is all this fear of doubling?
I have shot Parker double guns since 15 years of age (several decades) and now old German Simson and Italian Beretta double rifles for nearly 10 years and nary a "double" .
Naturally my old Model 70 has never fired without my pulling the trigger.
I have never heard of a "GOOD" English (or American, French, German, Italian, etc) double gun that doubled.

So why would anyone own a gun that doubled? Why would anyone buy a brand of gun that is reputed to double?
It seems to me that such a reputation would keep shooters from buying from such a company?
NOT Doubling should be one of the minimum design aspects of a double gun or rifle.
If such a gun is old and worn, it should be repaired or just hung on the wall.

Color me Confused.

 

[TOBY458]

What is all this fear of doubling?
I have shot Parker double guns since 15 years of age (several decades) and now old German Simson and Italian Beretta double rifles for nearly 10 years and nary a "double" .
Naturally my old Model 70 has never fired without my pulling the trigger.
I have never heard of a "GOOD" English (or American, French, German, Italian, etc) double gun that doubled.

So why would anyone own a gun that doubled? Why would anyone buy a brand of gun that is reputed to double?
It seems to me that such a reputation would keep shooters from buying from such a company?
NOT Doubling should be one of the minimum design aspects of a double gun or rifle.
If such a gun is old and worn, it should be repaired or just hung on the wall.

Color me Confused.

I completely agree! I think most guns that double are made to do so by user error. The front trigger is pulled and then while the rifle is recoiling, the trigger finger hits the back trigger by mistake. But, I suppose if the triggers are set too light, the recoil of some of the heavier calibers could cause a double if there was nothing mechanical to stop it from happening.

 

[One Day...]

Maybe not what is doubling, but who is doubling...

I agree with TOBY458. Based on my own very limited personal experience with doubles doubling: 1 shooter and 2 rifles, I am willing to freely speculate that a lot of doubling incidents are owed to people doubling, NOT rifles doubling. What with this pesky second trigger and this jarring recoil... My own experience was with one specific person whose double (can't remember the make) was supposedly doubling almost every time he was shooting it. Hmmm... I tried it, first with a live round in the right barrel and a snap cap in the left barrel, then with two live rounds. It did not double... Just out of curiosity he shot my own double. In those 1980's days it was my pre-WWII Jules Bury .450 #2. That rifle NEVER doubled on me, neither before nor after this little story. When this person shot it, you guessed it, my rifle, oooops, correction, this shooter doubled... Actually it was more a very quick double tap (bam, bam) than a true doubling (one big BAM). Somehow, as he was griping the stock under recoil, he managed to hit the second trigger... I could, of course, never convince him that he was the problem, not the two rifles...

In a totally different but similar way, I also had a friend who somehow managed to get my S&W .44 mag to skip a chamber or two out of a full cylinder when shooting. He would actually shoot 4 or 5 rounds out of the six, but the cylinder would complete a full rotation back to the first fired shell, and 1 or 2 live rounds would be left in the cylinder. Needless to say the revolver never, ever did that with me. The only explanation I could make of this was that he somehow started to squeeze the trigger again under recoil, which started the cylinder rotation, but he released the trigger before that cylinder rotation was complete coming down from recoil. Then, when he cocked for the next shot, the cylinder was rotating to the next chamber, skipping one chamber. I saw it happen to him time and again. He too was convinced that the gun was the issue, not him...

But it is documented in the literature...

This being said, some doubles have been known to double. It is documented in the literature, including in Robert Ruark's famous Horn of the Hunter. The guys was a shotgun expert, so I would assume that he knew how to deal with two triggers. If memory serves he was using a double Westley Richards 470 Nitro Express which I am pretty sure I read in one of his books he "hired" (rented) locally for the hunt. The part that is a bit confusing to me is that, still if memory serves, he apparently had that same rifle double on him on at least two different safaris. So much, I guess, for rented rifles and local gunsmithing in Kenya in the 1950's ... unless the rifle owners tested it and concluded that Uncle Bob too was somehow double squeezing under recoil (?)

Intercepting sears...

By the way Philip Glass, what do you mean by "the Krieghoff can’t double fire due to the ingenious design"? I believe that it is the Heym that has intercepting sears as a mechanical device to prevent doubling, not the Krieghoff, but I may be missing something...

 

[crs]

One Day,
Thank you for saving me time to document the difference between a gun doubling and a shooter doubling.

I expect that the latter is much more common than the former.

 

[Foxi]

What is all this fear of doubling?
.

It happens,not so often,like a "Monday car" and is not always easy to fix. No matter which manufacturer it is.
I know at least a heavy accident thereby.
The double of a friend doubles (from time to time) , when the rear trigger is pulled first, many gunsmiths have already bitten their teeth off.

Let's not kid ourselves about these beautiful weapons out of love.
A double rifle is a DIVA, captivates by grace and beauty, but in the same breath can be moody and bitchy.
Besides that,soldered barrels lead a life of their own. Who can deny it?
Many experienced gunsmiths had sweat beads on their forehead.

 

[crs]

Foxi said "A double rifle is a DIVA, captivates by grace and beauty, but in the same breath can be moody and bitchy."

No gun of mine that becomes "moody or bitchy" stays around long. Regardless of appearance, they are all hunting instruments and must function properly all the time. As with women, "grace and beauty" is not as lasting as function and reliability.

 

[Foxi]

Foxi said "A double rifle is a DIVA, captivates by grace and beauty, but in the same breath can be moody and bitchy."

No gun of mine that becomes "moody or bitchy" stays around long. Regardless of appearance, they are all hunting instruments and must function properly all the time. As with women, "grace and beauty" is not as lasting as function and reliability.

Are you talking from guns or doubles ???
I would immediately know three double rifles you to name - renowned manufacturer - if there the ammunition must be changed, they no longer shoot with others.
That is double rifles loose in most cases.
I already call that bitchy.

 

[crs]

Are you talking from guns or doubles ???
I would immediately know three double rifles you to name - renowned manufacturer - if there the ammunition must be changed, they no longer shoot with others.
That is double rifles loose in most cases.
I already call that bitchy.[/QUOTE


The only double shotguns I have owned are Parkers and there have been no problems. The oldest was made in 1900 and it was shot so much as to come off face. A proper double gun maker was able to put it right and I still shoot it a little every year. My newer Parkers show some handling wear but are mechanically sound and shoot well for me.

I have very little experience with double rifles, but the .405 and .458 caliber ones that I have do regulate with 300 and 400 grain ammo. I hand load all my own DR ammo.

 

[CAustin]

Not really looking at any rifle in particular. Just looking.

im waiting for the fire sale to begin to make this purchase a reality. So I need to come down and preview the vault before the sale.

 

[BeeMaa]

im waiting for the fire sale to begin to make this purchase a reality. So I need to come down and preview the vault before the sale.

We should all have good friends like you Charlie.

 

[CAustin]

We should all have good friends like you Charlie.

I know Toby well.

 

[Bushpig4Ever]

The finish on the metal is Nitride finish. I was advised against nickel plating by Krieghoff due to the fact that plating would cover details in engraving.

Correct. Mine has nickel platings which means the gun is much better protected, however the engravings don't look as nice as nitride finished. I would like to have it altered to nitride finish but Krieghoff advised against it.

 

[Opposite Pole]

Correct. Mine has nickel platings which means the gun is much better protected, however the engravings don't look as nice as nitride finished. I would like to have it altered to nitride finish but Krieghoff advised against it.

It’s always a trade off.

Since it’s almost Christmas I wish everyone here to be able to have their guns gold, ruthenium or platinum plated. They all resist corrosion pretty well.

 

[Major Khan]

They look beautiful . I would be interested in the .500/416 Nitro Express calibre offering . Based on my understanding of ballistics , it seems like a very good cartridge , 1 which could easily match ( or dare l say even supersede ) the old .450/400 Nitro Express calibre of my time .
Go for it , Toby458