Krieghoff Big Five vs. Heym 88 or 89 vs. Blaser S2

[Tanks]

I had a great experience there. https://www.africahunting.com/threa...g-cape-buffalo-with-phillip-bronkhorst.44314/
...

Guess, the PH did his job and you did yours which was my point.

 

[DWB]

@Tanks
I love hunting with my 404 Jeffery only with an Aimpoint Micro on. I recently acquired a Mauser A-type 9.3x62 still in its original open sighted setup as well as a custom 450 Rigby. I have taken the Mauser to the field and have yet to shoot something, but few things in life beats that feeling of an open sighted rifle in the bush. I have often been given flack for not using a scope, and sometimes I would have benefited from one. But the way I see it I pay for the privilege to hunt, thus I should be able to do it my way. Please don't let anyone fool you into thinking our beautiful country does not offer proper hunts. Hunt with the right people and you will stand amazed. Hunt on your terms and have fun! I still have to draw blood with both the 9.3 and 450 and both will be open sighted. Happy hunting

 

[Tanks]

... Were I going to spend a month in Tanzania, I would make an exception and bring a specialized PG rifle with a bit of reach....

Yep, I am building a .300 RUM just for PG for that hunt. Defiance Machine should have my left handed, CRF action with 3 position safety ready most likely by end of May. Then it goes to SSK industries to get barreled and to Accurate Innovations for stock. Back to SSK for final function check. It will be my any distance, anywhere in the world PG rifle.

For DG rifles I am set.

 

[Red Leg]

Yep, I am building a .300 RUM just for PG for that hunt. Defiance Machine should have my left handed, CRF action with 3 position safety ready most likely by end of May. Then it goes to SSK industries to get barreled and to Accurate Innovations for stock. Back to SSK for final function check. It will be my any distance, anywhere in the world PG rifle.

For DG rifles I am set.

I have a .30 Win Mag barrel for my R8 that shoots lights out with whatever I feed it. But I have toyed with the idea of getting another in .300 RUM or WBY. But I also have a couple of rifles in 300 H&H, and I keep coming to the conclusion a few more yards isn't worth it. But I am still thinking about it. A world class Grant's potentially standing way out there might be excuse enough. Hope everything comes together for that trip.

 

[lwaters]

I'd love to have an R8 in 375 Ruger and 300 PRC. Nice beltless easy cartridges to reload. They also are the same case. Then I would have to get a 416 Ruger.

 

[BeeMaa]

I have a .30 Win Mag barrel for my R8 that shoots lights out with whatever I feed it. But I have toyed with the idea of getting another in .300 RUM or WBY. But I also have a couple of rifles in 300 H&H, and I keep coming to the conclusion a few more yards isn't worth it. But I am still thinking about it. A world class Grant's potentially standing way out there might be excuse enough. Hope everything comes together for that trip.

How about a K95?
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...h-swarovski-scope-as-new.cfm?gun_id=101337572

 

[Red Leg]

Yes, but already have a very special No 1 in .300 H&H.

tricked out Ruger No. 1

• Red Leg
• Apr 15, 2017
• 3

 

[AES]

Steering this back towards the initial topic, would you put big game doubles by Rizzini and Merkel in the same category as the 5 already discussed?

 

[Albert GRANT]

Any one want an S2 in LH?
http://www.marcopolooutfitters.com/products/24

 

[IvW]

Steering this back towards the initial topic, would you put big game doubles by Rizzini and Merkel in the same category as the 5 already discussed?

No

 

[Ed Lally]

Red Leg, I have a .300 Why barrel for my R8 with a Zeiss Varipoint M 3-12 iC scope with a ranging dial set up for 165 gr Barnes TTSX. It is amazingly accurate at 100 yds but I have not yet shot it at long range. I have a similar setup on my .375 H&H Blaser barrel but the scope is a Leupold with a CDS ranging dial for 250 gr Barnes TTSX. Not sure of the maximum effective range of my .300 Wby but the .375 H&H will repeatedly ring a 6" going at 300+ yards. Get the 300 Wby if you "need" it but a good scope with a properly calibrated dial will certainly add effective range to your current barrel. I believe a good scope with a dial will cause a bullet to run out of energy/momentum before it runs out of spot on accuracy.

 

[Tanks]

Any one want an S2 in LH?
http://www.marcopolooutfitters.com/products/24

And here is one that is LH or RH (no Monte Carlo) at the same price point also new. Also, .470 NE

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/864449327

 

[One Day...]

Wow, thanks for all the info. I am being educated as I know very little about DRs. Can you please expand on the safety and cocking mechanisms on the VC and Chapuis rifles, as you did for the others?

Sorry for a delayed answer, I had missed this

Both Verney-Carron and Chapuis feature a traditional cock on opening, and sliding safety. I am not sure whether the safeties block the triggers, the sears, or the hammers (all three mechanisms exist) but I am certain that they do not decock the rifle as a Krieghoff or Blaser safety would.

In consequence, I would personally not accept to be followed by someone carrying a loaded VC or Chapuis (or Merkel, or Heym, or any other maker, including the grand old British firms) loaded double rifle in the African carry, on the shoulder, barrels forward, pointed at my back or my head.

Since we are on the subject, I would like to also agree with others that the noisy automatic decock when the Blaser is opened can be easily mitigated with learning to decock the rifle prior to opening it. Whether this is convenient or not remains a personal judgment...

However, this was not what I identified as the primary - in my judgement - issue with the Blaser decocker. In my judgement, the primary issue is the fact that the rifle needs to be recocked manually after a quick reload. Some will argue that this can be learned to be done automatically as the rifle is shouldered, but there is no denying that this is one more thing to think of, even unconsciously, in the case of rapid, under-pressure, self-defense shooting in a charge. I personally prefer the Krieghoff mechanism that provides full decocking safety but remains cocked until manually decocked, therefore eliminating both the issue of decocking noise, and the need to recock manually in an emergency shooting.

 

[One Day...]

On automatic safeties...

Since we all have a little more time on our hands these days, here is what John "Pondoro" Taylor had to say on automatic safeties, circa 1948. I reckon that it applies in spade to automatic decockers...

African Rifles & Cartridges - 1948 - John "Pondoro" Taylor

Alleged personal life choices set aside, it will be a long time before I challenge Taylor's experience and expertise with both DG hunting and DG rifles...

 

[Aaron N]

Also, other than RSA who goes for a DG hunt just for 7-10 days?

How about the average member here, who at $1000 a day minimum needs to limit their time in the bush just to be able to get the chance at a once in a lifetime buffalo hunt. You know, the guys reading this thread and keeping quiet because they know they’ll never be able to afford one.

 

[Tanks]

How about the average member here, who at $1000 a day minimum needs to limit their time in the bush just to be able to get the chance at a once in a lifetime buffalo hunt. You know, the guys reading this thread and keeping quiet because they know they’ll never be able to afford one.

You are right. I was actually looking at CMSafaris site the other day that has very affordable 7-10 day buffalo and Elephant hunts both for tuskless and trophy for elephant. I guess I had to scroll down on their price list. The tuskless hunt is actually a tad cheaper than the buffalo hunt.

 

[Jumbo]

Hello yhc;

I own a Krieghoff Big Five in .470 NE and am very happy with it. It shoots very well (1.5" to 2" at 25, 50, 75 yards with left barrel in the left hole and right barrel in the right hole, i.e. it neither crosses nor diverges) both its regulation load (Federal Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer) and Hornday DGS / DGX Bonded.

Setting aside the personal notions of likes and dislikes, and summarizing objective characteristics:

Heym

• Heym 88 and 89 are the "same" rifle, except the 88 has a definite German flair while the 89 was designed to be a British classic rifle lookalike. Either Heym are solid, proven, accurate rifles. The choice between the two is purely style.
• On the technical side, all Heym double rifles are equipped with intercepting sears. This prevents the possibility of the rifle "doubling" on you (shooting both barrels together) but, ugly truth be told, most doubling incidents with American shooters are caused by the shooter wrestling with two triggers, not the rifle. I know that this statement will likely be controversial, but it has been shown time and again that rifles doubling with certain people do not double with others. 'nough said...

Blaser

• Blaser S2 are characterized by an entirely different locking mechanism which is very ingenious and totally reliable, and by a different technique of joining the barrels at the muzzle. A Blaser S2 goes the opposite way from a Heym 89. While the 89 emulates a classic British rifle, the S2 clearly does not. Some love it. Some hate it. Blaser are solid, proven, accurate rifles.
• The S2 does not have a traditional safety but a cocker/decocker mechanism. This allows the rifle to be carried fully loaded but fully safe since the striker springs are not under tension. Some love it. Some hate it. More about this later.
• HOWEVER, what I personally believe killed the S2 is that its decocking mechanism automatically decocks both barrels whenever the rifle is opened, which means that in a quick reload the rifle needs to be manually recocked before it can be fired. Many, if not most, if not all - aside from dedicated S2 owners - see this as a fatal engineering flaw.

Krieghoff

• The Krieghoff Big Five is a cross-over, in a way, between the Heym and the S2. Its mechanism and barrels are typical traditional double rifle engineering, but it offers a cocker/decocker mechanism. As noted, this allows the rifle to be carried fully loaded but fully safe since the striker springs are not under tension. As mentioned, some love it, some hate it. Krieghoff are solid, proven, accurate rifles.
  
• The big difference between the S2 and the "K gun" - as it is affectionately nicknamed - is that the K gun decocker does NOT decock automatically when the rifle is opened. This makes a quick reload identical to all other double rifles quick reloads: break open, flick the empties out, dump two rounds in the breech, close the rifle, shoot. Many, if not most, if not all - aside from dedicated S2 owners - see this as a massive advantage over the S2. The classic discussion goes: "how many time in your life does this matter?" on one end, and "the only one time in your life it may matter may save your life" on the other end. I will let both sides happily argue the point...

Regarding safety vs. cocker/decocker in general, the argument goes as follows. On one end: "a classic safety is faster and smoother." This is undeniably true; it does take some physical effort to compress both barrels striker springs when cocking the rifle. On the other end, the argument goes: "as proven time and again by accidents in the bush, the "African carry" makes it dangerous to carry a fully loaded traditional double rifle, safety or no safety." This too is also undeniably true... This did not matter in the good old days when the rifle was carried by the gun bearer walking first and ahead of the hunter, so the hunter could just reach forward and grab the rifle from the bearer's shoulder, instantly ready to engage, but it does matter in modern days when three or four persons (1 tracker, 1 PH, 1 client, 1 apprentice or assistant PH) walk in single file each with a rifle on their shoulder aimed at the person ahead of them.

I personally do not suffer from arthritis in my right thumb, and I spent the time to acquire a new muscle memory when I transitioned from my previous pre-WW II Belgian Jules Burry .450 #2 with classic safety to my K gun .470 with cocker/decocker. Cocking the rifle when I shoulder it is now as automatic and as easy to me as flicking the safety on my sidelock double 20 gauge Merkel when after quails. I personally see the cocker/decocker as the safest option by far. I am personally not comfortable walking in front of someone who carries a fully loaded and cocked double rifle (or bolt rifle) on the shoulder, barrel(s) forward pointing at my back or head, and I know several PH who simply refuse to do it and ask the client to not load the rifle until the final approach. A S2 or K gun mitigates this issue. To each their own...



The two French double rifles you really want to also consider are:

Verney Carron

• The VC is produced using the Demas design (VC purchased Demas) characterized by an action that features 3 parallel lumps & bites rather than one massive one. Whether this is actually stronger or provide any meaningful design advantage can probably be argued forever. Suffice it to say that VC are solid, proven, accurate rifles.

Chapuis

• The "Dean" of Double Rifles dealers in the US, George Caswell of Champlin Firearms says of the Chapuis: "We feel so strong about these guns mechanically that we will take care of any problems for as long as you own it, except the wood. We have had every current made boxlock double rifle in our shop, have shot them all, worked on all, had all of them apart and we know for fact that you can't buy a better one for the money than a Chapuis. We regulate, re-joint, do triggers, re-barrel and hunt with and shoot a lot of double rifles. We flat know this is one tough, attractive, high precision, go to Africa and have money left for the second Buffalo type of gun. I challenge you to show me a better current double rifle for the money." This is no faint praise, and what else could I add...

I hope this was useful

That was a great summary of the options! And well stated!

 

[krish]

Lot of good information. Thanks guys.

 

[IvW]

Heym 89B without a doubt...

 

[Opposite Pole]

Heym 89B without a doubt...

Respectfully, I disagree