Large caliber's on a standard length action

[Bos Javanicus]

Just thought I'd put it out there, who shoots or has in the past shot large calibre's on standard length actions. I know the English trade made some large calibre rifles on standard length actions, notably .404's & .416 Rigby's & and I think Selby shot a .416 Rigby on a standard length action.
I know there is a little lengthening of the magazine well and the action needs a bit taken out of the rear, but it is doable with absolute minimum of fuss.
I suppose what I am also saying is why go to the extra cost of a magnum action when a standard length action is more than suitable. And why and or if, is the magnum length action the go to action length for these to calibre's?

 

[matt85]

what extra cost are you talking about? once upon a time magnum length actions were very expensive compared to standard military actions but those days are long gone. now multiple companies produce magnum actions for slightly more or even the same cost as a standard rifle action. both Winchester and CZ produce excellent magnum actions for very reasonable prices.

-matt

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Isn't the 416 Rigby a magnum length cartridge?

The 375 Ruger and 416 Ruger, as well as the 458 Win are long action. Weight and length difference are small enough to hardly consider. But a significantly smaller number of magnum length rifles are produce, so manufacturers charged premium prices. However, as @matt85 noted, the price gap has come down somewhat.

 

[boldo 42]

what extra cost are you talking about? once upon a time magnum length actions were very expensive compared to standard military actions but those days are long gone. now multiple companies produce magnum actions for slightly more or even the same cost as a standard rifle action. both Winchester and CZ produce excellent magnum actions for very reasonable prices.

-matt

A lot of the large calibres were only squeezed into std length actions (98 mausers) because in most cases it was all that was available to the gunsmith to work with. The 500 jeffery will fit in std actions , but that is why it has the short neck and the rebated rim to fit on the 98 bolt face , as well as single stacking in the mag. But as matt has said magnum actions can be had now for a doable fee so you don't have to jam them in there.

 

[IvW]

Although the 404 Jeff and the 416 Rigby can be built on standard actions, both of them are best suited to a magnum length action.

Fitting a 416 Rigby into a standard Mauser 98 action requires metal to be taken of both ends of the action.

Rather stick with a magnum action this way you do not compensate on the strength of the action.

Harry Selby's 416 Rigby was indeed built on a standard length action but it was done by Rigby themselves and they knew what they where doing.

 

[Roan]

I had a 416 on a std action and it was a pain in the ass!!

Always had feeding problems. And i never felt quite 100% with it. Would never have shot dangerous game with it.

Can ot be done? For sure. But i agree with all the others guys. Get a good magnum length action and have piece of mind.

 

[Ray B]

There are a couple things: The standard length actions were modified to hold longer cartridges by not only machining out the back of the magazine area but also the front of it. This meant removing some of the feed ramp, making a sharper angle for the bullet to go from magazine to chamber, but also that is the metal that supports the lower locking lug, thus weakening the action. The original M70 actions called magnum actions for the H&H series had the same outside dimensions as the standard actions. Presently there are actions available that were designed from the start for the larger cartridges so at this point there is little benefit to either machining out a standard action or seating bullets low enough to fit in a standard action.

 

[fiocchi]

A 404 is easy to fit into an m98 and will feed very reliably. You can lengthen the mag box by cutting off the front wall an you'll still have 3 down one in the chamber by half loading the first one. Magnum actions can be had cheaper these days, yes, but who on earth would want a push feed dg rifle, no thanks. Cz as the other option, OK, but will never be half the m98.

 

[Bos Javanicus]

Sorry guys, I was alluring to M98 actions not any modern actions as I'm not sure if anyone has or would contemplate making a .404 Jeffery or .416 Rigby on these modern standard length actions. What I should of said was why in the past were large calibre's like the .404 & .416 Rigby built on standard length Mauser 98 actions.
I have never ever heard of a standard length 98 Mauser fail because it had a bit machined out of the front or rear. As somebody said, Rigby made them and they know what they were doing, so they must be strong enough.
As for the extra cost, an original magnum Mauser 98 action back many years ago or even today ( if you can find one) would probably go for 5 times the price of a good standard length 98 action.
Still, I'm not convinced a magnum length Mauser 98 action is a better option. A standard length Mauser 98 can be made to feed reliably, it's strong enough, cheaper than a magnum Mauser 98 action, less likely to short stroke the bolt. What's not to like about it? Or to at least at a minimum consider. Now, I'm not saying a magnum action is wrong, but a standard length 98 is a viable option.
Does anybody know why Selby's .416 was on a standard length action? I would say it was a personal choice but why?

 

[Ray B]

Attached are some photos of two FN commercial 98 actions. Both are "standard" actions. One is as issued, the other has been opened up for H&H series cartridges. the basis of strength in Mauser rifles was to yield rather than break (see comparisons of WW I M98 vs Springfield 1903 rifles). Comparing the photos, one can see that most of the length was gained at the expense of the front lower locking lug. There is less support and the feed ramp angle is steepened. The long term result as told to me by a very experienced gunsmith, is that the lug yields to the pounding of pressure, leaving the top lug to support the bolt. Since the top lug is split, one side will be a slightly tighter fit, so for a micro-second as the bullet is traveling down the barrel, the force of the pressure is being held by one half of the top lug, followed by the other half, followed by the bottom lug. So when things break, it is the top lug that got the worst of the pressure. In his years of seeing broken guns, this was the primary cause of failure for M98s that had been opened up for the larger cartridges.

 

[boldo 42]

If the mauser werks deemed the std 98 action strong enough for big rounds , they wouldn't have made the magnum action. Just because you can make it fit , doesn't mean it's a great idea.

 

[Bos Javanicus]

Found this, it may explain why many were made on standard length 98 actions.

Prior to 1912, W.J. Jeffery built .404 Rimless Nitro Express rifles on ex-military, standard length, 98 Mauser actions that had the action and magazine box modified to fit. This was the result of John Rigby & Co. having the exclusive distributorship from 1898 to 1912 for the U.K. market of Mauser rifles and components that were manufactured by the Mauser firm. Once Rigby’s exclusive distributorship ended, Jeffery began using 98 Magnum Mauser actions to produce .404 Rimless NE rifles.

 

[Roan]

Seems to me your mind is already made up to use a STD action.

Hope it works out for you.

 

[IvW]

Cz as the other option, OK, but will never be half the m98.

Cannot agree with the last part, the ZKK or CZ actions are used by Rigby! So they should be a bit better than half a M98! Many M98 where mass produced for military weapons and made by different factories, so many of them are not"so good".

Nothing wrong with a ZKK or CZ action, stronger and better than a modified to use for magnum cartridge M98, unless the M98 you intend using is from an original hunting rifle built by Mauser and not some unknown origin military M98, which I strongly doubt is the case.

 

[IvW]

Sorry guys, I was alluring to M98 actions not any modern actions as I'm not sure if anyone has or would contemplate making a .404 Jeffery or .416 Rigby on these modern standard length actions. What I should of said was why in the past were large calibre's like the .404 & .416 Rigby built on standard length Mauser 98 actions.
I have never ever heard of a standard length 98 Mauser fail because it had a bit machined out of the front or rear. As somebody said, Rigby made them and they know what they were doing, so they must be strong enough.
As for the extra cost, an original magnum Mauser 98 action back many years ago or even today ( if you can find one) would probably go for 5 times the price of a good standard length 98 action.
Still, I'm not convinced a magnum length Mauser 98 action is a better option. A standard length Mauser 98 can be made to feed reliably, it's strong enough, cheaper than a magnum Mauser 98 action, less likely to short stroke the bolt. What's not to like about it? Or to at least at a minimum consider. Now, I'm not saying a magnum action is wrong, but a standard length 98 is a viable option.
Does anybody know why Selby's .416 was on a standard length action? I would say it was a personal choice but why?

Selby's 416 Rigby was not a personal choice. He was using a 470 Double at the time when he bought the 416 Rigby. Somebody had driven over his 470 bending both barrels, rendering the rifle useless. He wanted another 470 Double but the only DG rifle available was this 416 Rigby on a standard length action for sale at the gun shop, so having no option he bought it.

All the "better" Rigby's where built on Magnum length actions. There being a marker for DG rifles at the time and many people unable to afford a Magnum version one, they also produced them on standard length actions as this was a lot cheaper. A business decision no doubt as there was a market and them having the sole access to the M98 Magnum action for 14 years, meant they could ask a premium for rifles built on them(as right fully mentioned above).

Sure even the military versions may be strong enough but there are better options available at the same price. Apart from the machining front and back on the action, machining will have to be done on the bolt as well as modifications to the magazine. Magazine capacity will also be less than a magnum length action.

ZKK 602 375 H&H- 5 rounds in the mag and one in the barrel.
ZKK 602 500 Jeff- 3 rounds in the mag and one in the barrel.

If you have a decent M98 action go for it, but I would not for a 416 Rigby.

 

[IvW]

If the mauser werks deemed the std 98 action strong enough for big rounds , they wouldn't have made the magnum action. Just because you can make it fit , doesn't mean it's a great idea.

Well said. Exactly.

 

[IvW]

Found this, it may explain why many were made on standard length 98 actions.

Prior to 1912, W.J. Jeffery built .404 Rimless Nitro Express rifles on ex-military, standard length, 98 Mauser actions that had the action and magazine box modified to fit. This was the result of John Rigby & Co. having the exclusive distributorship from 1898 to 1912 for the U.K. market of Mauser rifles and components that were manufactured by the Mauser firm. Once Rigby’s exclusive distributorship ended, Jeffery began using 98 Magnum Mauser actions to produce .404 Rimless NE rifles.

Correct. Rigby also made them on standard actions as there was a market for them, as many Africans could not afford the Magnum version.

 

[DWB]

Quite a knowledgeable guy in the gun industry here once said to me:

Remember the Magum Mauser action is made of the exact same steel and exact same way as the other sporting actions. It is only longer! Not that much stronger!

 

[Ray B]

the Magum Mauser action is made of the exact same steel and exact same way as the other sporting actions. It is only longer! Not that much stronger!

So after the standard length action has half of it's lower lug removed is it still the same strength as the magnum action?

 

[DWB]

I knew that was going to come up...

I myself was under the mistaken idea that the magnum was a "super" action. So just found that bit of info interesting.