Mixing shot size

[Diamondhitch]

I know there have been commercial shells in the past that mixed shot sizes and the fact that there are not more attempts probably answers my question but, have any of you tried mixed shot loads?

I was thinking 5/8 oz of BB or BBB on top of 5/8 oz of 2s would be a good goose load, the BBs would carry for longer shots and the 2s would provide a denser pattern in close.

What do you guys think?

 

[Diamondhitch]

I should add, this would be a 3" steel shot load for a 12 guage.

 

[Red Leg]

I think most of that sort of thing is gimmicktry for people looking for reasons other than their shooting or ammunition makers looking for a new angle. Take geese for instance. An ounce an a quarter of #2 "heavy shot" from a 2 3/4 inch shell is decisive on greater Canada's on down. I have an old 10 bore 2 7/8's inch Lindner hammer gun which I have taken to Canada several times and it is devastating on any goose inside 50 yards with 1 1/4 ounces of bismuth (much to the chagrin of the super black eagle crowd shooting 3 1/2 inch Roman candles with more recoil than my .404). I'm all for keep it simple and put'em where it counts.

 

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I look at it this way: if it was such a great idea, then 1.) why didn't every ammo company jump on the band wagon and start making them and 2.) why did Remington quit making them after a few years?

Reason is: at long range, your heavier pellets give too sparse a pattern to be effective, and your smaller pellets don't have enough energy. The other problem is most waterfowlers can't judge range worth a tinker's damn! Far, FAR too many "long range shots" are simply "out of range". I think redleg has it...spot on!

 

[Diamondhitch]

I think most of that sort of thing is gimmicktry for people looking for reasons other than their shooting or ammunition makers looking for a new angle. Take geese for instance. An ounce an a quarter of #2 "heavy shot" from a 2 3/4 inch shell is decisive on greater Canada's on down. I have an old 10 bore 2 7/8's inch Lindner hammer gun which I have taken to Canada several times and it is devastating on any goose inside 50 yards with 1 1/4 ounces of bismuth (much to the chagrin of the super black eagle crowd shooting 3 1/2 inch Roman candles with more recoil than my .404). I'm all for keep it simple and put'em where it counts.

I agree the shot weight is more important than velocity. However I am unwilling to mortgage the house for either Bismuth or heavi shot unless there is no other alternative. I will not use heavi shot since it is far harder than steel and even harder on barrels.

 

[BRICKBURN]

It would be interesting to pattern it.
My guess is the two different weights would not be happy flying together.

Get an over and under and one shell with BB the other with BBB or T's

 

[Diamondhitch]

It would be interesting to pattern it.
My guess is the two different weights would not be happy flying together.

Get an over and under and one shell with BB the other with BBB or T's

And fire both barrels at once! LOL

 

[BRICKBURN]

And fire both barrels at once! LOL

Would not suggest it. Been there done that.
Buddy used to do that as his last shot of the day out of a double 10 ga. You do not do that twice in one day.

 

[Diamondhitch]

Would not suggest it. Been there done that.
Buddy used to do that as his last shot of the day out of a double 10 ga. You do not do that twice in one day.

Ya a buddy had a gun that fired both at once so he only put 1 in at a time, we snuck a second in whenever we could manage.

 

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Actually, bismuth can be cheaper if you consider how many shells it takes to kill a duck......steel in 16 and 20 gauge guns is ABYSMAL!!!! Doesn't kill worth a crap! ...and I HATE chasing down cripples! Shotshells loaded with bismuth and ducks over decoys and you have dead ducks with the first shot....you aren't "following up" with repeated shots, esp. on days when the ducks are flying.
Economically, steel shotshells with a high velocity are probably your best bet.............

I agree the shot weight is more important than velocity. However I am unwilling to mortgage the house for either Bismuth or heavi shot unless there is no other alternative. I will not use heavi shot since it is far harder than steel and even harder on barrels.

NOT WITH STEEL SHOT!!! Don't compare apples with oranges! Try and think of it this way: You have a shot put (lead shot) and a soft ball (steel shot)......If I throw them at you (with the same velocity) , what will hurt more? If I want to make the softball hurt more, which do you think would be more effective: to take the softball and really rev up the velocity, or throw a couple more softballs at you with the same speed? 1 oz of steel pellets has more pellets than 1 oz of lead pellets (makes sense, right....because steel is less dense, i.e. "lighter", than lead), so 1 oz of steel #4s is has an equal number of pellets (roughly) as 1 1/4 oz of lead. To make it effective, the only way to to that is to increase the velocity. More shot at a lower (1250 fps) velocity does not a duck killer make.........trust me on this one!

 

[Diamondhitch]

Actually, bismuth can be cheaper if you consider how many shells it takes to kill a duck......steel in 16 and 20 gauge guns is ABYSMAL!!!! Doesn't kill worth a crap! ...and I HATE chasing down cripples! Shotshells loaded with bismuth and ducks over decoys and you have dead ducks with the first shot....you aren't "following up" with repeated shots, esp. on days when the ducks are flying.

I can load Bismuth for $62 per box. Or steel for $13. If it takes less than 4.77 shots to kill each bird steel is cheaper. As much as I hate cripples, I cant justify that. replacement barrels are cheaper than bismuth.

I agree steel sucks but the other choices suck worse, each in their own way.

NOT WITH STEEL SHOT!!! Don't compare apples with oranges! Try and think of it this way: You have a shot put (lead shot) and a soft ball (steel shot)......If I throw them at you (with the same velocity) , what will hurt more? If I want to make the softball hurt more, which do you think would be more effective: to take the softball and really rev up the velocity, or throw a couple more softballs at you with the same speed? 1 oz of steel pellets has more pellets than 1 oz of lead pellets (makes sense, right....because steel is less dense, i.e. "lighter", than lead), so 1 oz of steel #4s is has an equal number of pellets (roughly) as 1 1/4 oz of lead. To make it effective, the only way to to that is to increase the velocity. More shot at a lower (1250 fps) velocity does not a duck killer make.........trust me on this one!

When I said "shot weight is more important than velocity" I wasn't referring to shot column weight but rather shot density or weight per pellet. Increased velocity does indeed increase penetration but increasing pellet density/weight is far more efficient. Velocity is a poor replacement for shot weight. Chuck Hawks has a lot of info on his site about this.

 

[Mr. 16 gauge]

O.K.............you win.

 

[Longwalker]

There is one thing far too many shotgun shooters forget when they pattern their guns. Pattern boards are stationary, flying birds are mobile. The ideal pattern shape to me would be a disc flying in a plane perpendicular to the bird. In fact, a typical shot string is quite long, several meters at forty meters range. Add a bird crossing at a good clip crossways and the pellets that are actually effective are significantly less than a flat pattern board will show you. Some will pass in front, some behind. The best shot string we can realistically hope for is a sphere, but the best elite target loads cannot achieve this. There is still a shot "string"
Now add the variable of two shot sizes. At very close range it will make no discernible difference, but at medium and long range the heavy pellets will have less velocity loss, and the smaller ones will start to lag behind. The shot string will be extremely long. A long crossing bird will be hit by one size pellet or the other, but not by many of both.
Turkey hunters do sometimes effectively use mixed size shot. But almost all turkeys are shot as stationary targets, or as a buddy likes to say, in the "pre - flight condition" Shot string makes no difference on stationary targets or on patterning boards.
For long crossing shots, the mixed shot sizes are the worst of both worlds, not the advantage one might assume.

 

[IdaRam]

Nailed it Longwalker
It's all about compromise with steel. Except with velocity. Velocity is KING! with steel shot. Lighter pay load at high velocity wins every time.
1450-1500 fps is what I load for geese. #1 or #2 over dekes and BB or BBB for pass shooting and/or big canadas.
@Diamondhitch I've done a fair bit of goose shooting up in your neck of the woods. I've hunted from Vermillion to Provost, (Bellshill, Byers, Lougheed). Snows and Specks over decoys I like #1's or #2's. Those giant canadas you have up there can really soak up the shot so I usually use Tungsten on them, but BBB at 1450 fps out to about 40 yards or so is pretty lethal. Beyond 40 yards on big geese is the realm of shot other than steel in my opinion, although I have doubled on canadas beyond 50 yards multiple times with steel shot.
3" BB steel at 1450 fps is as good as it gets with steel shot for an all purpose goose load. In my opinion

 

[Diamondhitch]

There is one thing far too many shotgun shooters forget when they pattern their guns. Pattern boards are stationary, flying birds are mobile. The ideal pattern shape to me would be a disc flying in a plane perpendicular to the bird. In fact, a typical shot string is quite long, several meters at forty meters range. Add a bird crossing at a good clip crossways and the pellets that are actually effective are significantly less than a flat pattern board will show you. Some will pass in front, some behind. The best shot string we can realistically hope for is a sphere, but the best elite target loads cannot achieve this. There is still a shot "string"
Now add the variable of two shot sizes. At very close range it will make no discernible difference, but at medium and long range the heavy pellets will have less velocity loss, and the smaller ones will start to lag behind. The shot string will be extremely long. A long crossing bird will be hit by one size pellet or the other, but not by many of both.
Turkey hunters do sometimes effectively use mixed size shot. But almost all turkeys are shot as stationary targets, or as a buddy likes to say, in the "pre - flight condition" Shot string makes no difference on stationary targets or on patterning boards.
For long crossing shots, the mixed shot sizes are the worst of both worlds, not the advantage one might assume.

I had considered stringing as a factor. The other issue is one shot size or type trying to pass the other, that cant be good.

 

[Diamondhitch]

Nailed it Longwalker
It's all about compromise with steel. Except with velocity. Velocity is KING! with steel shot. Lighter pay load at high velocity wins every time.
1450-1500 fps is what I load for geese. #1 or #2 over dekes and BB or BBB for pass shooting and/or big canadas.
@Diamondhitch I've done a fair bit of goose shooting up in your neck of the woods. I've hunted from Vermillion to Provost, (Bellshill, Byers, Lougheed). Snows and Specks over decoys I like #1's or #2's. Those giant canadas you have up there can really soak up the shot so I usually use Tungsten on them, but BBB at 1450 fps out to about 40 yards or so is pretty lethal. Beyond 40 yards on big geese is the realm of shot other than steel in my opinion, although I have doubled on canadas beyond 50 yards multiple times with steel shot.
3" BB steel at 1450 fps is as good as it gets with steel shot for an all purpose goose load. In my opinion

I have had the same luck as you, small geese and ducks no prob. Ducks fold well at long range to BB steel at 1350fps but those big honkers are tanks and need some serious anti-aircraft artillery past 50yds. I am looking at a load that pushes 1oz of steel BB at 1600fps, I also have some #1 Bismuth to play with as well so hopefully I can find something I like.

 

[IdaRam]

I am looking at a load that pushes 1oz of steel BB at 1600fps.

I like the sound of that! If you can get a tight, uniform pattern I bet that is a goose hammer.

 

[Roseman]

As most here have said, mixing of shot sizes does not seem to give the results one may envision.
IMHO, If you are going to load some however, you should stack the shot with the smaller pellets on top and the heavier ones below. The smaller shot will have greater velocity. If they are loaded below the heavier shot, collisions would be immediate theoretically. At the front, they will move ahead of the heavier shot for some distance before the heavier shot passes them. The shot string should hold together better.

 

[Mr. 16 gauge]

As most here have said, mixing of shot sizes does not seem to give the results one may envision.
IMHO, If you are going to load some however, you should stack the shot with the smaller pellets on top and the heavier ones below. The smaller shot will have greater velocity. If they are loaded below the heavier shot, collisions would be immediate theoretically. At the front, they will move ahead of the heavier shot for some distance before the heavier shot passes them. The shot string should hold together better.

How do you figure? If both shot sizes are launched at the same time with the same amount of force, how does the smaller shot have "greater velocity"??? I can't envision the smaller shot all the sudden "speeding up" and getting out of the way of the larger shot.........

 

[Roseman]

Sorry for the confusion in my post.
All of the projectiles have the exact same velocity when they leave the barrel but immediately after exiting the barrel, the larger shot begins to loose velocity at a greater rate than the smaller shot. Theoretically, if the larger shot has been loaded ahead of the smaller shot, it's deceleration may interact with the smaller, which is decelerating at a lesser rate, to effect the shot string.
Loading the smaller shot first should result in improved shot string integrity as little mixing of shot would occur.