mono vs lead for Cape Buffalo?

[DLSJR]

Have any of you been in the unfortunate situation where your bullet over penetrated the buffalo and it hit another buffalo? In those situations what does the shooter, PH and tracker do?

This happened to my son and I in 2023. We were tracking 3 Dugga Boys and when we caught up to them, my son advanced with our PH, Alan Vincent, and he shot one of the bulls, which was broadside at about 50 or 60 yards. He was shooting a 375 H&H with 300 grain TSX’s at around 2,500 fps. There was no bull behind his, but one of the others was about 10 yards further and at a 45 degree angle from my son’s bull. My son fired a 2nd short into the front of his bulls chest and it was down. The other two bulls did not run off, so I quickly advanced and shot the bull that had been at the 45 degree angle behind my son’s bull. I fired a couple quick shots with my 416, with a 400 grain Bearclaw first, followed by 400 grain TSX’s. My bull only went 15-20 yards and dropped.

When we were gutting my bull, one of the trackers handed me a TSX he found in the liver. I looked at the entrance hole and it didn’t make sense as it was nowhere near where I’d shot my bull. Then he handed me the Bearclaw he dug out of the offside shoulder. The TSX was smaller, a 375 bullet, while the Bearclaw was a 416 bullet. We quickly realized that my son’s first shot was a pass through and had gut shot my bull standing off to the side. Good thing I killed him when I did!

 

[375Fox]

Have any of you been in the unfortunate situation where your bullet over penetrated the buffalo and it hit another buffalo? In those situations what does the shooter, PH and tracker do?

Here’s a report last year where it happened. This was absolute best case scenario with a good hit and quota for the second animal. It could lead to a very long day/s and a very dangerous situation trying to finish it off. You will pay for both buffalo.

Thread 'ZIMBABWE: My Recent Hunt With Dalton & York Safaris'

Jun 19, 2024

This hunt was the result of Tuskless cow hunting coming onto my radar screen approximately 8 years ago. I looked into several companies over the years and as of recent, Dalton and York started popping up more and more. So after a few conversations in 2023 I booked my wife and I for May 27 through June 10, 2024. Leopard and Buffalo for my wife and Tuskless elephant for me.

• Altitude sickness
• Replies: 109
• Forum: Hunting reports Africa

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[grand veneur]

Got my popcorn

I pay attention to my body weight and avoid these types of foods. As an old big game hunter I tend towards Absinthe, Pastis or Whiskey. With moderate consumption, the general risk is low. After I have shot a few buffaloes in various countries myself and accompanying a few buffalo hunts as backup, I had to put a lot of things into perspective as I gain more experience. Nothing is as it seems and things don't always turn out as they should, no matter what is recommended for such hunting, especially what bullets are used and where is the shot placement. Before I harvest again a lot of negative comments, I would rather refrain from posting to such topics and only prefer to read the posts.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Over penetration is dangerous in a herd situation or possibly anything other than a lone bull. Barnes, Swift, TBBC are the standard because they are a good combination of performance and penetration without over penetrating. Solids will potentially hit a buffalo behind your buffalo whether you knew it was there or not.

Hmmm, don't think I would put Barnes in the conversation in trying to avoid overpenetration. There are numerous occasions where hunters have reported them slapping straight through a Buff.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

So, in an ideal situation it would be best to hit the buffalo with a broadside shot through the shoulder breaking the shoulder? I would assume breaking both front shoulders with one shot is better? Does the Barnes and AFrames penetrate deep enough to break the second shoulder on the offside with the first shot? Or, only solids can do that?

You are overthinking it. Forget about the perfect setup in how you want the Buff to stand. Be prepared from broadside, to quartering on, to frontal. It's hunting.
Before the bandwagon gets here, I'm not saying if they are grazing peacefully in front of you that you can't wait, but don't give up on a dream buff because you didn't prepare well enough to take a quartering on shot. I would say 85% of Buff we have shot, were quartering on.

 

[375Fox]

Hmmm, don't think I would put Barnes in the conversation in trying to avoid overpenetration. There are numerous occasions where hunters have reported them slapping straight through a Buff.

That is why I prefer swift A frames or trophy bonded bear claws because I trust them more not to exit

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

That is why I prefer swift A frames or trophy bonded bear claws because I trust them more not to exit

Exactly that.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

Secure first buffalo
Track second buffalo
Take down second buffalo.

The role of client, will certainly be to pay trophy fee for both buffalos. (wounded or killed)

About shooting, and who does what - this depends on PH and his estimate of clients capability.
Ultimate responsibility for PH is safety. If PH considers that client is not up to the task, he will keep him away from tracking wounded buffalo.
Not up to the task means: either unsafe and poor gun handling, or physicals limitation due to age or some disability.
If the client appears fit, he will join the tracking, discretion of PH.

Regarding first and follow up shots, in my case, I made clear to my PH before the hunt: after I fire the first shot, he was welcome to fire second shot and bring my buffalo down, in case the situation and safety dictates so. In order to avoid any misunderstanding in such situation, this should be clarified before the hunt between PH and client.

This was published on this forum in summer this year, take a look.

View attachment 653899

Wow! What a horrible tragedy. This is scary for many reasons.

This story has me really thinking. For a Cape Buffalo to kill an experienced PH shows how dangerous and intelligent they are. In the story above it almost alludes to the buffalo sort of ambushing them in a flanking maneuver while it was lying in wait. Which shows a certain level of intelligence. Also, the tracker not shooting the buffalo before or after it gored the PH which makes me question how confident I could be in trusting a tracker to save my life if I was gored or trampled.

I'm obviously not an expert and I don't like to second guess but I think two different types of firearms are needed - one is a hunting rifle for distance shooting and once the buffalo is wounded it now becomes a defensive situation and for that situation a different weapon is needed - a CQB short-barreled weapon in semi-auto for quick maneuverability say a AR15 chambered in 458 socom or a double action revolver S&W 500 attached to a lanyard. I wouldn't want to track a wounded buffalo with a long heavy bolt-action rifle with a 24" to 30" inch barrel. Bolt-action rifles are not defensive weapons in tight close encounters where speed is needed.

I personally would want the trackers being equipped with defensive weapons even AK's in 308 with a 30 round magazine and unload on the buffalo.

Also, wearing a bullet proof vest to prevent being gored ?

 

[mark-hunter]

I personally would want the trackers being equipped with defensive weapons even AK's in 308 with a 30 round magazine and unload on the buffalo.

You should just be positive and diligent about everything, do not worry too much.

Diligent means honest to your real abilities, and get prepared and train with your rifle.
Train from sticks and off hand.
I shoot a lot thought the year, but additionally I fired at least 200 shots with 375 before going to hunt.
This will get you prepared.
Good training starts with 22lr from stick, then switch to something stronger, like 30-06, and then on the end complete training with DG rifle.
This will get you prepared.

Once there was a talk show with Craig Boddington, about the time when he got his 100th buffalo. On question how many charges did he experienced in his life after getting 100 buffaloes? Answer was: Zero.

Regarding CQB forget about Ar15 based equipment, or AR15 based cartridges. semiautos are not allowed. or tracker carying AK. You cannot compare this calibers to proper DG sporting caliber. with buff, ak and ar are joke.

For short range is double rifle, in 40 plus DG caliber. Two shots.
For all situations is bolt action in DG caliber.
Best for all - for client - should be 375 HH bolt action, fixed magazine, deatchable scope, and iron sights
If things get complicated, PH will back up with his double.

Doubles are expensive, and if you plan to hunt DG only once in your life, probably they are not the first choice.
But if you plan to hunt DG every season, and have funds, then buy one double rifle, and one bolt action in something like 416 Rigby.
For one hunt only PG + buffalo, 375 HH can do everything you need, provided first shot is placed well.
Just focus on first shot.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

Regarding CQB forget about Ar15 based equipment, or AR15 based cartridges. semiautos are not allowed. or tracker carying AK. You cannot compare this calibers to proper DG sporting caliber. with buff, ak and ar are joke.

Thanks for the tips.

The 458 socom in 405gr hard cast is on par with the 45/70. The owner of Buffalobore ammo has used the 458 socom on 2,000lb+ pound game...

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11 rounds of 458 socom 405gr hard cast in semi-auto I think is very effective.

Are there any African countries that allow the AR15 chambered in 458 socom or to use a handgun like the S&W 500 as a backup?

 

[mark-hunter]

Are there any African countries that allow the AR15 chambered in 458 socom or to use a handgun like the S&W 500 as a backup?

To my knowledge, no semiautomatics allowed anywhere there.
Minimum caliber requirements:
Somewhere per caliber, somewhere per bore diameter, somewhere per mnimum energy.
I wouldnt push for acceptable minimum. Golden minimum standard is 375 HH, or equivalent like 375 ruger.
Back up is PH double rifle. Not handgun. To get a handgun in Africa is complicated, some did hunt with handgun there, but this is different story.
500SW has energy equivalent to rifle caliber 30-06. This is not DG caliber, and certainly not stopping caliber. Neither 375 is stopping caliber, but well placed shot will do the job.

Namibia rules:
Minimums allowed for various species are: 1350 joules for springbok, duiker, etc.; 2700 joules for hartebeest, wildebeest, kudu, gemsbok, eland, etc.; 5400 joules for buffalo, elephant, rhino, etc.

Zimbabwe rules:
Minimum rifle energy requirement for big dangerous game (elephant, hippo, buffalo) is 5300 Joule or 9.2 diameter. Equivalent 3909.0 ft/lbs
Minimum rifle energy requirement for very large plains game (giraffe, eland) and lion is 4300 Joule. Equivalent 3171.5 ft/lbs
Minimum rifle energy requirement for large plains game (kudu, wildebeest etc) and leopard is 3000 Joule. Equivalent 2212.6 ft/lbs
Minimum rifle energy requirement for medium and small plains game is 850 Joule. Equivalent 626.9 ft/lbs
Black powder rifles have a required minimum calibre of .40

South Africa
Legal requirements in most Southern African countries stipulate a minimum of 375 for all dangerous game. A 375 or larger is recommended for Buffalo or Lion, while hunting Hippo, Elephant, or White Rhino may necessitate a caliber larger than 375.

In short:
If you are short on budget, take 375 Bolt rifle.
If you are not budget limited, take double rifle, and bolt action rifle. I dont recommend experimenting.
Modern safari started in 1909, and in more then 100 years till now all possible experimenting is done, and by now some things stand proven.

Besides: take something exotic, loose ammunition box in airplane on arrival (it happened more then once), and you will not be able to obtain ammunition locally. You will have empty gun.
So, I suggest conservative choice of firearms and calibers.

 

[jdemocko]

Until this year I killed 7 Buffalo with my 500 NE loaded with 475 gn CEB Safari Raptors. Each kill was basically the same scenario. Spot the bull, stalk the bull, shoot the bull, he runs off 50 to 100 yards and is dead or just about dead. This past season I decided to try something different. I regulated my gun with 570 gn Woodleigh soft points and off I went. On day 2 we got to 30 yards of a nice hard bossed bull hiding in thick mopane, I put the front bead on his shoulder and pulled the trigger. The bull took the hit and stood frozen like it had been struck by lightning, all 4 legs just locked up. Craziest thing I have witnessed hunting buffalo. He staggered a bit while I was jockeying around for a second shot and as I mounted the gun for a finisher, he fell over and let out a death bellow. We recovered the Woodleigh in the opposite shoulder and it was a mangled mess and inflicted some serious damage. I'm going to load up some more Woodleighs for 2025.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

Up until this year I killed 7 Buffalo with my 500 NE loaded with 475 gn CEB Safari Raptors. Each kill was basically the same scenario. Spot the bull, stalk the bull, shoot the bull, he runs off 50 to 100 yards and is dead or just about dead. This past season I decided to try something different. I regulated my gun with 570 gn Woodleigh soft points and off I went. On day 2 we got to 30 yards of a nice hard bossed bull hiding in thick mopane, I put the front bead on his shoulder and pulled the trigger. The bull took the hit and stood frozen like it had been struck by lightning, all 4 legs just locked up. Craziest thing I have witnessed hunting buffalo. He staggered a bit while I was jockeying around for a second shot and as I mounted the gun for a finisher, he fell over and let out a death bellow. We recovered the Woodleigh in the opposite shoulder and it was a mangled mess and inflicted some serious damage. I'm going to load up some more Woodleighs for 2025.

It seems that some fragmenting lead and energy dump inside the buffalo leads to quicker kills over the mono-mentals and solids? Plus, less chance of over penetrating? Seems to be a plus.

I was surprised to read people use the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw TBBC on buffalo and it's success. Another bullet that could be a great buffalo round is the Federal Trophy Bonded Tip (TBT) is a thick base bonded lead core design like the TBBC but with a plastic tip and a bit more streamlined design.

I know moose are not buffalo but, from my own hunting experience in Alaska with the 300 RUM using the Berger's they have a much greater effect on moose after they're hit with that compared to the Barnes TSX. The Berger fragments and dumps it's energy inside the animal leading to a quicker kill. The moose reacts differently to Berger's as if it's been shocked and then it's legs buckle. I've never had a moose run off after being hit with a Berger but, they have run over 100 yards after being hit with the Barnes TSX on many occasions.

 

[nomspc]

This forum was a treasure trove of information for me in preparing to hunt Cape buffalo. Having said that, do yourself a huge favor and read Kevin Robertson’s book, “Africa’s Most Dangerous” early in your process and you’ll save yourself a great deal of time, money and uncertainty. It will answer all the questions you’ve asked here, as well as some questions you don’t yet know to ask.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

This forum was a treasure trove of information for me in preparing to hunt Cape buffalo. Having said that, do yourself a huge favor and read Kevin Robertson’s book, “Africa’s Most Dangerous” early in your process and you’ll save yourself a great deal of time, money and uncertainty. It will answer all the questions you’ve asked here, as well as some questions you don’t yet know to ask.

Thank you. I will get his book.

 

[mark-hunter]

Thank you. I will get his book.

Add also: Kevin Robertson "Perfect shot II".

 

[BourbonTrail]

To help visualize some of the comments: this bull is slightly quartering on, and there are 2 buffaloes in this picture. (Hint: the second is directly behind the first)

Photo taken at about 20 yards.

Edit: this was a mock stalk for a good picture, but I had a 416 Rem loaded with 400gr A-Frames, just in case.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

To help visualize some of the comments: this bull is slightly quartering on, and there are 2 buffaloes in this picture. (Hint: the second is directly behind the first)

Photo taken at about 20 yards.View attachment 653912
Edit: this was a mock stalk for a good picture, but I had a 416 Rem loaded with 400gr A-Frames, just in case.

Yeah, I cannot even see the other buffalo behind it. I understand now why solids are not the best choice.

 

[sgt_zim]

Wow! What a horrible tragedy. This is scary for many reasons.

This story has me really thinking. For a Cape Buffalo to kill an experienced PH shows how dangerous and intelligent they are. In the story above it almost alludes to the buffalo sort of ambushing them in a flanking maneuver while it was lying in wait. Which shows a certain level of intelligence. Also, the tracker not shooting the buffalo before or after it gored the PH which makes me question how confident I could be in trusting a tracker to save my life if I was gored or trampled.

I'm obviously not an expert and I don't like to second guess but I think two different types of firearms are needed - one is a hunting rifle for distance shooting and once the buffalo is wounded it now becomes a defensive situation and for that situation a different weapon is needed - a CQB short-barreled weapon in semi-auto for quick maneuverability say a AR15 chambered in 458 socom or a double action revolver S&W 500 attached to a lanyard. I wouldn't want to track a wounded buffalo with a long heavy bolt-action rifle with a 24" to 30" inch barrel. Bolt-action rifles are not defensive weapons in tight close encounters where speed is needed.

I personally would want the trackers being equipped with defensive weapons even AK's in 308 with a 30 round magazine and unload on the buffalo.

Also, wearing a bullet proof vest to prevent being gored ?

Standard body armor like what police wear will not stop an edged weapon (consider the horns to be edged weapons).

A "CQB rifle" in Africa is a double. Having no bolt or magazine can reduce the overall length by about 6" and still be firing a short rifle with a 24" barrel.

Most DG hunting is done at Danger Close distances of under 100 yards - not because of an absence of energy, but because at nearer distances your margin of error is larger than at greater distances. A wounded ele/lion/leopard/cape buffalo can turn into a very bad day, as the story from page 1 illustrates. If you can get to within 20 or 30 yards of your quarry, probability of putting the bullet where it needs to be is much higher even if your shot is somewhere south of being perfect.

Things can get weird in a hurry. I got very lucky with a cow buff this past August. I had a perfect broadside shot on her left side from 30-ish yards, that is until I started to squeeze the trigger. She started to turn back to her right just at the last second, and I ended up with a raking shot that struck her ribs just in front of the rumen. She ran off 40 or 50 yards, crashed, and gave her death bellow. If the bullet had struck just another 3 or 4 inches behind where it did, it would have hit her in the rumen. As it was, the bullet penetrated about 3' from where she was hit, shredding her left lung, blowing apart the heart, and lodging in the right shoulder. If I'd hit the rumen, the bullet would have stopped in the rumen as I was shooting A Frames out of my 9.3x62. As I understand it, only solids have a chance at getting through that very densely packed hay bale know as "rumen."

 

[WAB]

TBBC or AFrames on all but one buffalo for me. The one exception was a pre-bonded DGS. Hornady lost my business over that fiasco.