Muzzle Control on Safari

[franzfmdavis]

That guy is so full of himself ... and bullshit. Carry a rifle like that and you can VERY easily be in trouble trying to shoot fast. Ask anyone who's hunted uplands. The butt will get caught in clothing as it's mounted quickly. Been there done that. Get the gun at "ready" position out in front of the body. The military preached this for good reason (before changing to pistol grip AR style stocks).

I could only make it 3/4 through that video. Mark Sullivan is the definition of "obnoxious." Ugh!!! How does that guy get his head through the door?

I’m curious if you could describe the “ready” position in front of the body more thoroughly so I can understand what you are suggesting?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I’m curious if you could describe the “ready” position in front of the body more thoroughly so I can understand what you are suggesting?

Well, back in my military days "ready" and "port arms" were essentially the same. Since then ready has changed as military gun design has changed. Here's a traditional port arms illustration:

Port Arms by Bill Rogers

Port Arms Photograph by Bill Rogers

pixels.com

Watch any video of an upland hunter over dogs. They don't carry the shotgun underneath the armpit. They need to be ready to shoot quickly, especially when hunting over flushing dogs.

 

[Altitude sickness]

That guy is so full of himself ... and bullshit. Carry a rifle like that and you can VERY easily be in trouble trying to shoot fast. Ask anyone who's hunted uplands. The butt will get caught in clothing as it's mounted quickly. Been there done that. Get the gun at "ready" position out in front of the body. The military preached this for good reason (before changing to pistol grip AR style stocks).

I could only make it 3/4 through that video. Mark Sullivan is the definition of "obnoxious." Ugh!!! How does that guy get his head through the door?

Ontario, your just jealous that he has a better mustache

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Ontario, your just jealous that he has a better mustache

I've been accused of lacking humility ... but Sullivan wrote the book on that subject. Ugh.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I don't have a problem slinging my rifle when hunting. When starting final stalk for buffalo I'll remove the sling and give it to tracker. For plains game my gun always has sling attached. At the range I detach sling and remove fore end sling stud.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Despite the criticism that Mark Sullivan has received, this video suggests a good set of guidelines in my opinion (for carrying doubles at least):

Did anyone else notice how much time he spent pointing his rifle at the camera, therefore cameraman?

 

[Laniarius]

The above link on Africa carry isn't working for me.

I think it's pretty clear, however. Never point the muzzle at anyone, chamber loaded or not. (Exceptions are when a long gun is cased, or, while cleaning or maintaining a gun you sometimes flag yourself with muzzle but that's only after verifying empty / action open or bolt removed.)

I don't see "Africa carry" as being much worse than the style shown at the front of the line in this photo. Maybe a bit worse because Africa carry is higher up and if someone is in front, you're more likely to be flagging their body instead of "just" the leg. Anyway, either method is only safe if you're alone or first in line.

But it seems that African gun safety rules rely more heavily on whether a round is chambered. Presumably this works well enough because PHs don't want anyone to be shot. But I'd prefer if people tried to never point the muzzle at anyone, and to not rest their hand on the muzzle.

 

[GuttormG]

unloaded rifle should be treated with respect

All guns are loaded, always.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

The above link on Africa carry isn't working for me.

I think it's pretty clear, however. Never point the muzzle at anyone, chamber loaded or not. (Exceptions are when a long gun is cased, or, while cleaning or maintaining a gun you sometimes flag yourself with muzzle but that's only after verifying empty / action open or bolt removed.)

I don't see "Africa carry" as being much worse than the style shown at the front of the line in this photo. Maybe a bit worse because Africa carry is higher up and if someone is in front, you're more likely to be flagging their body instead of "just" the leg. Anyway, either method is only safe if you're alone or first in line.

But it seems that African gun safety rules rely more heavily on whether a round is chambered. Presumably this works well enough because PHs don't want anyone to be shot. But I'd prefer if people tried to never point the muzzle at anyone, and to not rest their hand on the muzzle.

View attachment 622248

The "Africa carry" seems to work well for whoever is in the front of the line. Generally this is the PH. I've never Deen a PH point a muzzle at me. Occasionally, when I am the last person in the line or when hunting alone, I will hold the rifle by the grip and put the fore end of the stock on top of my shoulder. You might call it the "reverse Africa carry." The muzzle never sweeps anyone and it is very fast to bring into action.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The above link on Africa carry isn't working for me.

I think it's pretty clear, however. Never point the muzzle at anyone, chamber loaded or not. (Exceptions are when a long gun is cased, or, while cleaning or maintaining a gun you sometimes flag yourself with muzzle but that's only after verifying empty / action open or bolt removed.)

I don't see "Africa carry" as being much worse than the style shown at the front of the line in this photo. Maybe a bit worse because Africa carry is higher up and if someone is in front, you're more likely to be flagging their body instead of "just" the leg. Anyway, either method is only safe if you're alone or first in line.

But it seems that African gun safety rules rely more heavily on whether a round is chambered. Presumably this works well enough because PHs don't want anyone to be shot. But I'd prefer if people tried to never point the muzzle at anyone, and to not rest their hand on the muzzle.

View attachment 622248

Note these are upland hunters. Interesting that the gal in front is the only one obviously with an unloaded shotgun (pump has slide retracted). Odd.

Upland hunters' guns are always loaded and ready to shoot while carrying, often all day for days on end ... for me anyway. Why should I carry my rifle differently hunting dangerous game? Pheasants aren't nearly as dangerous as Cape buffalo (though I have been clobbered by flushed roosters on two occasions). No one will ever convince me a rifle held by the barrel with one hand on top of the shoulder can be put into action quicker than one held in two hands in front of shooter.

 

[Laniarius]

Note these are upland hunters. Interesting that the gal in front is the only one obviously with an unloaded shotgun (pump has slide retracted). Odd.

Upland hunters' guns are always loaded and ready to shoot while carrying, often all day for days on end ... for me anyway. Why should I carry my rifle differently hunting dangerous game? Pheasants aren't nearly as dangerous as Cape buffalo (though I have been clobbered by flushed roosters on two occasions). No one will ever convince me a rifle held by the barrel with one hand on top of the shoulder can be put into action quicker than one held in two hands in front of shooter.

I think it's mostly to look cool.

During long walks, I suppose there's a benefit from just changing the type of grip. Like with canoeing and portaging, a change is as good as a rest.

 

[Letzhunt]

Anyone that talks about himself in third person like in that video is more proud of himself than others are. The "In a fight ...front sight" statement he says as if he coined the phrase. He stole that from a tactical pistol instructor. Furthermore he couldn't even make it a few seconds before he put that 12 pound gun up on his shoulder and pointed at the cameraman. His statement about a bolt action not being capable as a dangerous game rifle has been proven false by many.
I find myself moving my gun around a lot to keep from pointing it inadvertently at someone around me who has moved or I have. Muzzle discipline is something that when you focus on it it will soon become second nature and you adjust without much thought. You must also be willing to say something to others who break the rule. I eventually quit hunting with a friend who could not comprehend the rule. It was the only way to not have a 12 gauge goose gun not pointed at me for half a day.

 

[mark-hunter]

Contributory factor in African carry is rifle without sling. It has to be carried somehow.

How many of African rifles are actually without slings? Clients, or PH's - all the same.
Anybody have some idea?

All camp guns I have seen were fitted with slings.

 

[Scott CWO]

I’ve got a fair amount of experience hunting dangerous game in Africa and having grown up in the upland Mecca of SD and being an outfitter-guide for big game in CO, AK and MX and NA dangerous game (bears) for 34 years, I think it’s safe for me to say that there’s a big difference between hunting upland game and tracking wounded dangerous game.

There’s some good information that can be learned from Mr. Sullivan’s video if you can ignore his lack of humility. I agree with the way he carries his rifle when approaching wounded dangerous game. When I’m following up a wounded brown bear, I would never have my rifle muzzle pointed up, at port arms or already on my shoulder. You cannot turn or move quickly with a fully mounted rifle or a muzzle pointed up. I do it very similar to Sullivan. I want to see the bear or charging animal above my muzzle as I bring the muzzle up. This way, the rifle is not blocking my view of the animal and I can shoulder the rifle and shoot the animal very quickly without ever losing sight of the animal. I had to do this two months ago on a brown bear charge in heavy cover on the AK Peninsula and unfortunately, it wasn’t the first time.

As for “African carry”, when hiking, it’s fine if you’re in the lead but I never do it when following others. My muzzle is either straight up, straight down or 90 degrees to the side.

 

[Zambezi]

Note these are upland hunters. Interesting that the gal in front is the only one obviously with an unloaded shotgun (pump has slide retracted). Odd.

Upland hunters' guns are always loaded and ready to shoot while carrying, often all day for days on end ... for me anyway. Why should I carry my rifle differently hunting dangerous game? Pheasants aren't nearly as dangerous as Cape buffalo (though I have been clobbered by flushed roosters on two occasions). No one will ever convince me a rifle held by the barrel with one hand on top of the shoulder can be put into action quicker than one held in two hands in front of shooter.

I think you (and others) need to understand that African carry is not done when the game is encountered. It is done when LOOKING for game. Once the game is spotted and you're in hunting mode then one carries "at port arms"

Port arms is also used when tracking or following up dangerous game.

Like I mentioned in the other thread, a hunter's itching little fingers are way closer to the pew pew button when carry port arms. THAT single fact contributes to 99% of others being shot in the ass than any other single factor.

I DEFY anyone, absolutely ANYONE of the 50 000+ members, to prove with absolute certainty that they have never swept a member of their hunting party for a brief second. I'll call you a liar. So yes, muzzle control is paramount but sweeping occurs with both carry methods. One method just has the finger waaaaay closer to the trigger.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

African carry originated before the advent of quick detach slings. Rifles are much more safely ... and much more comfortably ... carried slung on shoulder with muzzle in the sky.

As for stalking dangerous game ... or any game ... with gun in port arms position: Obviously the gun is not obstructing vision. It the most portable way to carry, especially in heavy cover. If a wounded brown bear in tag alders comes for me from the side or behind, I won't be able to spin and engage if the muzzle is sticking out in front of me and tangled up in brush. I haven't stalked wounded bears in tag alders but I have tracked plenty of moose in the stuff. I once shot a bull in his bed asleep at less than twenty yards. So thick I couldn't see the cow standing ahead of him. That was literally an all day stalk and I still got the drop on them.

With the gun at port arms, gravity is working with not against me when the muzzle is leveled on target. For many reasons port arms is the best way to carry when approaching game. Muzzle in the air is safest, slimmest profile for maneuvering in heavy cover, and not fighting gravity or clothing to mount the gun and get on target. Sixty years tracking big game and hunting birds over dogs has taught me this. But the military had it figured out long before my time. They were teaching soldiers it's the best way to react to the most dangerous of game. Knowledge gained from hundreds of thousands of dangerous stalking encounters. Then along comes some crackpot bullshitter self-pontificating influencer with a "better way." Yeah, right.

 

[deewayne2003]

I am cautious about this issue when hunting with others, when I'm guiding whitetail hunters I always insist on taping the muzzle of the clients gun so it doesn't get clogged with mud/dirt incase of a stumble or fall..... and I use ORANGE electrical tape for this, so even in the dark I can tell where their rifle is pointed.

While stalking I will typically carry my rifle slung on my left shoulder with the muzzle down.

 

[Datchew]

Ontario, your just jealous that he has a better mustache

That mustache weighs 16.5 pounds alone and grows from a bare lip daily.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I think you (and others) need to understand that African carry is not done when the game is encountered. It is done when LOOKING for game. Once the game is spotted and you're in hunting mode then one carries "at port arms"

Port arms is also used when tracking or following up dangerous game.

Like I mentioned in the other thread, a hunter's itching little fingers are way closer to the pew pew button when carry port arms. THAT single fact contributes to 99% of others being shot in the ass than any other single factor.

I DEFY anyone, absolutely ANYONE of the 50 000+ members, to prove with absolute certainty that they have never swept a member of their hunting party for a brief second. I'll call you a liar. So yes, muzzle control is paramount but sweeping occurs with both carry methods. One method just has the finger waaaaay closer to the trigger.

Traversing or scouting for game my gun is slung safely on my shoulder. Stalking birds or wounded game it's in my hands. Yes, my finger is close to the trigger ... for a good reason. If an animal or bird pops up, my trigger finger won't be of much use wrapped around the opposite end of my rifle. And the gun is on safe with muzzle in the air. I am fine walking with someone carrying a loaded gun that way. No worries. I would be MUCH less comfortable hunting with a flabby client who's staggering along with a big gun balanced precariously on his shoulder and held in place with just one hand.

 

[Scott CWO]

African carry originated before the advent of quick detach slings. Rifles are much more safely ... and much more comfortably ... carried slung on shoulder with muzzle in the sky.

As for stalking dangerous game ... or any game ... with gun in port arms position: Obviously the gun is not obstructing vision. It the most portable way to carry, especially in heavy cover. If a wounded brown bear in tag alders comes for me from the side or behind, I won't be able to spin and engage if the muzzle is sticking out in front of me and tangled up in brush. I haven't stalked wounded bears in tag alders but I have tracked plenty of moose in the stuff. I once shot a bull in his bed asleep at less than twenty yards. So thick I couldn't see the cow standing ahead of him. That was literally an all day stalk and I still got the drop on them.

With the gun at port arms, gravity is working with not against me when the muzzle is leveled on target. For many reasons port arms is the best way to carry when approaching game. Muzzle in the air is safest, slimmest profile for maneuvering in heavy cover, and not fighting gravity or clothing to mount the gun and get on target. Sixty years tracking big game and hunting birds over dogs has taught me this. But the military had it figured out long before my time. They were teaching soldiers it's the best way to react to the most dangerous of game. Knowledge gained from hundreds of thousands of dangerous stalking encounters. Then along comes some crackpot bullshitter self-pontificating influencer with a "better way." Yeah, right.

If you want to bring your rifle down onto your sight plane of a wounded DG animal, go ahead. I’m going to come up with my muzzle, like Sullivan. Charging animals, especially bears, lions and leopards are lower to the ground than most people think. You don’t have the time to lose sight of the animal or be blocked by anything and readjust. Upland game are flushing, going away and rising. Totally different.

In urban environment SF training, the rifle is shouldered but aimed slightly lower so that the operator has unobstructed vision, then it is raised slightly to the threat before trigger pull. This is a lighter weapon and different than either dangerous game or upland game. Every type of shooting is a bit different.