my .470 lang double before and after being restocked and refinished by j roberts gunmakers

[spike.t]

hi david i bought the rifle as finished rebuild so there was no seperate bill for the new stock.

 

[vette447]

Wow. Beautiful double. I am betting you will be happy with that purchase for years to come.

 

[spike.t]

Wow. Beautiful double. I am betting you will be happy with that purchase for years to come.

vette the problem is there always seem to be more nice doubles out there!!

 

[Velo Dog]

Spike.t,

I weep as I write this because you said you had actually considered sawing off the barrels.

Ouch!, that hurts me in my soul (cold and shallow as it is).

Best Regards,
Velo Dog.

 

[matt85]

that's a fine looking double! you made the right choice by not cutting down the barrels. I personally prefer longer barrels on my rifles (more velocity and less muzzle blast).

the Hornady DGX was mentioned earlier in this thread. im one of those people who does not see it as suitable for DG. Hornady DGX bullets are a simple cup/core bullets with soft steel jackets which means the only thing holding the jacket to the lead core is a crimp. while this bullet "might" not come apart, its very primitive in design and almost every other bullet on the market is a better choice. the little extra money spent on Woodleigh, Swift, Barnes, and North Fork is well worth it.

I do use Hornady ammo for practice though since terminal performance isn't important on paper.

-matt

 

[spike.t]

Velo Dog just to really hurt your cold shallow soul and Matt, paul had another rifle of the same make and during that ones refurb the person who bought it had the barrels shortened to 22 inches. i prefer 24 max on a double which is still plenty of length. my bolts are between 20 and 22inches max, not into long barrels myself.

 

[Velo Dog]

Pretty sure the Hunting Gods prefer 26" on double rifles (and single shot rifles as well).

 

[matt85]

im not really sure about the 470 NE since I don't own one but I sure wish my 450-400 3" had longer barrels. my rifle has 23.5" barrels which in my opinion are too short for the 450-400 3". a nice 26" or even a 28" barrel would really bring out the cartridges full potential. there is also the added benefit of having a longer sight radius which would make for better accuracy. having paid very "little" for my rifle, im in no position to be choosey on barrel length though.

rough performance estimates for the 450-400 3":
24" barrel = 2050 FPS with 3700 FT/LB of energy
26" barrel = 2100 FPS with 3900 FT/LB of energy
28" barrel = 2150 FPS with 4100 FT/LB of energy

loads can be pushed in a 24" barrel to match the 28" barrel but you start running fairly high pressures for a double rifle. from my reading the "correct" barrel length for the 450-400 3" is 28" which is why most people quote the speed at 2150. this may or may not be true for the 470 NE so this data may be irrelevant for you but I figured it would provide some food for thought.

-matt

 

[Velo Dog]

im not really sure about the 470 NE since I don't own one but I sure wish my 450-400 3" had longer barrels. my rifle has 23.5" barrels which in my opinion are too short for the 450-400 3". a nice 26" or even a 28" barrel would really bring out the cartridges full potential. there is also the added benefit of having a longer sight radius which would make for better accuracy. having paid very "little" for my rifle, im in no position to be choosey on barrel length though.

rough performance estimates for the 450-400 3":
24" barrel = 2050 FPS with 3700 FT/LB of energy
26" barrel = 2100 FPS with 3900 FT/LB of energy
28" barrel = 2150 FPS with 4100 FT/LB of energy

loads can be pushed in a 24" barrel to match the 28" barrel but you start running fairly high pressures for a double rifle. from my reading the "correct" barrel length for the 450-400 3" is 28" which is why most people quote the speed at 2150. this may or may not be true for the 470 NE so this data may be irrelevant for you but I figured it would provide some food for thought.

-matt

Hi Matt,

I strongly suspect that, back in the golden years of the Nitro Express rifles and cartridges, Kynoch, Eley Bros, and others, were fluffing a bit on their claimed velocities.

I had an Army & Navy SxS, in .450 No2 Nitro (that cartridge was not derived from any existing black powder one).
The original claimed velocity with 480 gr bullets, soft and solid was 2175 fps.

Firing mine through a chronograph at that velocity showed no pressure signs at all but likewise would not regulate with Woodleighs or Hornadys at anywhere near that speed (only 480 gr bullets I had access to at the time, Hawks were back-ordered).

My old smasher settled right down at 2050 fps (4 shots into 2.5 inches @ 50 yds over wide/shallow "V" rear and over-size white front bead.)

It liked the Hndy DGX an d DGS a b it more than it did the Woodleighs, much to my surprise, so I shot a buffalo with them and was delighted with the result.

He is shown as my avatar.

"Velocity is usually fine but accuracy is usually final."

Cheerio,
Velo Dog.

 

[matt85]

its very possible the old velocities were off, but the above numbers are still roughly correct. you can get around 50 extra FPS with 2" of extra barrel depending on the cartridge of course. (nothing is certain in this game as every rifle is different)

a bit of useful info ive discovered: if you gun likes Hornady DGX bullets then it will likely also like Swift A-frames. the Swift A-frame has a nearly identical bearing surface and weight distribution to the DGX bullet.

-matt

 

[Velo Dog]

Matt85,

I totally agree with you that nothing is certain and every rifle is different.

The info on the Swifts acting in like fashion to the DGX bullets is quite interesting.
I will not forget that.

On the subject of barrel length, my absolute favorite is 26" for doubles and single shots because most shorter ones (and longer ones) I have handled did not balance as well for me.

Velocity and muzzle energy do not hold the same importance for myself as does balance and regulation, (within reason of course).

Incidentally, I also prefer 26" shotgun barrels for SxS grouse/quail guns, for the same reason.

If my presumption is correct that the original Nitro velocities were exaggerated, then the first one (.450 NE 3.25" produced by Rigby) and the one so popular then and today (.470 probably by Joseph Lang) actually made their reputations with 480 gr and 500 gr bullets respectfully at about 2000 fps more or less.

Likewise then, the 450/400 also may have made it's excellent reputation with the 400 gr bullets @ about 2000 fps.

Same for the .404 Jeffery rimless and if so, the incredible .416 Rigby was only going around 2200 fps, instead of 2350 fps.

I cannot prove any of this.

I just smell it that's all.

My old A&N in 450 No2 Nitro had 28" barrels and regulated perfectly at 2050 fps, not faster and not slower.

I appeared to have been made by J. Manton (I saw a .470 identical to mine in every way except it was marked "J. Manton" instead of Army & Navy.

Not likely Manton would've regulated any rifle for some reduced load.

In those times, pretty much everyone shot factory ammunition.

Blah, blah, blah,
Velo Dog.

 

[35bore]

Very nice looking rifle young man. The finished product is beautiful, an I'm sure the photos don't do the rifle justice. Interesting chambering to boot. I how you kill 10 tons of animals with this beast of a rifle Mike, gotta keep us posted on how it shoots.

 

[PeteG]

Definitely a nice looking rifle and I think mike should bring that lovely item over this way when you make your trip out here so we can have a good look at it!!!

 

[JamesJ]

Welcome to the forums.

 

[spike.t]

Welcome to the forums.

me thinks you have got out of sync somewhere james........but thanks anyway

 

[JamesJ]

LOLOL, too many windows open.

 

[PaulT]

Spike, have you taken possession of this double yet ?

How's-it shoot ?, any field reports ?

What load do you intend to use in the field ?

Again, very fine looking piece to hunt with !

Cheers,

P.T.

 

[spike.t]

Spike, have you taken possession of this double yet ?

How's-it shoot ?, any field reports ?

What load do you intend to use in the field ?

Again, very fine looking piece to hunt with !

Cheers,

P.T.

nope its still at pauls shop and up for sale as want some loot for something else. its been kinda out of sight out of mind.......so easier to sell .........

 

[PeteG]

nope its still at pauls shop and up for sale as want some loot for something else. its been kinda out of sight out of mind.......so easier to sell .........

that sucks

 

[CAustin]

It is a great looking firearm and no two ways about it!