New to Muzzle loader

[mdwest]

I resemble @mdwest I have a TC encore, drop in two Triple7 magnum pellets, then top it with a 295 grain power belt.
It knocks the crap out of deer under 150 yards, witch is all I need.

Yep… exactly the same down to the power belt…

I suppose I get the cool guy element to being able to deploy a ML at great range and with great accuracy… but as long as I’m getting less than 1.5” at 100… and plenty of power to reliably take down elk sized game and smaller out to about 200… all of my needs are met for the properties in TN, TX, and CO where I most routinely hunt…

For African game, I wouldn’t hesitate to use the same load for anything PG except eland…

We’re I hunting further north or west I might want to stretch things out to 250… but honestly taking a ML shot any further than that, even if the rifle is capable of it, doesn’t interest me (I generally don’t have interest in shooting my centerfires at game any further than that either)… so more capability than the TC offers with pellets and powerbelts would be a waste on me…

Regarding reliable ignition… maybe extreme temps are an issue? 209s haven’t been a problem in any way, nor have triple 7 pellets in any of the places I hunt no matter how damp or cold it’s been…

 

[JimP]

I've taken a number of elk with a muzzle loader and the furthest shot was 120 yards.

For elk I use a 300 grain Thor bullet over 90 grains of Pyrodex RS.

The Thor bullet is made by Barnes and is sized for the barrel.

Back when I was using my .54 sidelock I was shooting a 430 grain solid hand cast lead bullet. It did wicked damage to the insides of a elk.

 

[Skshyk]

Thank you gentlemen for all the great advise. Placed my order for a CVA Accura LR-X 50 & 300 grain Thor bullets. Just hoping our local reloading shop has primers and powder. Will send some range reports once I fire a few off.

 

[JimP]

One problem you might have with the Thor bullet in your Accra is that the smallest Thor bullet won't fit down the bore.

I tried the .500 diameter in my Accura and it will not go past the taper on the end of the barrel.

Did you order the sizing bullets or just bullets?

 

[Skshyk]

I ordered the Lighting One size

 

[Dukeisok]

I don't know what the restrictions on muzzleloaders are in colorado, however Savage made a 10 ml2 smokeless muzzleloader which was phenomenal. Less recoil then black powder, and a 300 grain bullet at 2400 ft per second is pretty effective. In North Carolina it's legal for muzzleloader season but may not be in all states I think they stopped making them a few years back but still can find some on gunbroker. I love mine

 

[JimP]

I ordered the Lighting One size

Before you place any powder down the barrel take one of the bullets and see if you can push it through from the muzzle to the breach.

My Accura's barrel is so tight that I couldn't get a .500 Thor bullet down it and in the description of the Lighting bullets it says that they will self size from .500 up. So you may have a problem.

My Accura has just a scope on it and I use it in other states where a scope and saboted bullets are legal.

Here are a couple of pictures of the one bullet that I recovered. It is a Thor 300 grain that I shot out of my Thompson Center Triumph

 

[rookhawk]

I don't know what the restrictions on muzzleloaders are in colorado, however Savage made a 10 ml2 smokeless muzzleloader which was phenomenal. Less recoil then black powder, and a 300 grain bullet at 2400 ft per second is pretty effective. In North Carolina it's legal for muzzleloader season but may not be in all states I think they stopped making them a few years back but still can find some on gunbroker. I love mine

they don't make them anymore because they were a smokeless muzzleloader and they had many mishaps that resulted in injury and death. One side says they were defective leading to the deaths, the other side says idiots were reckless and loaded incorrect volumes.

You can read hundreds of pages of saga on this topic on forums frequented by Randy Wakeman (pro-MLII) and a smattering of others (anti).

 

[Wyatt Smith]

There sure is a big difference between H4831 and H110. I know a man who was dumping BLC-2 in his side lock muzzle loader, fortunately my friend stopped him.
Some people should not be in charge of loading their own ammo, even if it inside the gun and not at the loading bench.

 

[Hogpatrol]

In reference to Colorado regs stating the use of a conical, is that an all lead cast bullet only? If not, what other bullets are legal?

 

[JimP]

In reference to Colorado regs stating the use of a conical, is that an all lead cast bullet only? If not, what other bullets are legal?

It has to be full size, so if a 50 caliber muzzle loader the bullet must be .50 or larger in length.

Most all full size muzzle loader bullets are legal, you just can not use sabots around a smaller diameter bullet that are popular in other states.

For my Colorado legal muzzle loader I use the Thor all copper bullets that are manufactured by Barnes for Thor. If I am using my side lock which is a .54 caliber I'll use a 430 grain maxi ball that I cast myself. These are 100% lead. I posted a picture of the Thor bullet that I use. It is 300 grains. The mushroomed one was recovered from a 5x6 bull elk that was shot at 120 yards. I hit the elk 3 times and only recovered the single bullet, the other two were pass through shots. The bullet was recovered on the far side hide. It broke a rib going in and broke one on it's way out.

Here is a picture of that elk

 

[Skshyk]

Got my CVA rifle and components! I ran a 300grain 50 cal through the barrel went in no problem. My question is load data, from what I am understanding is 80 grains to 100grains by weight is minimum and max for either powder?

 

[Hogpatrol]

BP and BP substitutes go by volume not weight. Aside that, when I used Triple Seven, I used Triple Seven primers. There's a body of data that advises against using standard shotgun primers.

 

[Dukeisok]

they don't make them anymore because they were a smokeless muzzleloader and they had many mishaps that resulted in injury and death. One side says they were defective leading to the deaths, the other side says idiots were reckless and loaded incorrect volumes.

You can read hundreds of pages of saga on this topic on forums frequented by Randy Wakeman (pro-MLII) and a smattering of others (anti).

I'm aware of the drama, but personally ascribe to the idiot theory. I've had no problems with mine and I do like my thumbs. I would think a double charge in a muzzleloader or bore obstruction (from accidentally double loading powder and bullets, which is I think Randy Wakemans theory) would be just as dangerous as in a pistol or anything else, it's just that modern centerfire cartridges have enough case fill that it is difficult to do. I am very careful with my 38 special because it would be easy to double charge. There obviously is no case on a muzzleloader and you could fill it to the top. There is less margin of error with smokeless and I weigh and prepackage every charge

 

[JimP]

There are charts out there that will give you the volume to weight conversion. However I just use a black powder measure that has indicators on the side of it as to how many grains you are putting into it.
Right now I don't shoot much more than 90 grains of Pyrodex and 100 grains of BH 209, I haven't tried 777 yet, but I have a bottle that I'll try out this summer.

 

[Hogpatrol]

IIRC, the SML drama was manufactured by a disgruntled employee of Savage who allegedly blew up one of their rifles on purpose. A smokeless muzzleloader is no more dangerous than a black powder version or any other firearm. If I had a dollar for every stupid pet trick I've seen at gun ranges or heard from shooters, I could use that money and do another African safari.. A previous post is just one example of not following instructions, i.e. weight versus volume. SMH.

 

[JimP]

That's one nice thing about most western states that have a muzzle loader only season.

They all require just black powder and no smokeless.

But there are always those who want to push the envelope on what they place into the barrel or in the case of metallic cases what they use in them. I've seen both sides.

 

[Ridge Runner]

As a traditional sidelock muzzle loading rifles, shotguns, pistols, and revolver style handgun enthusiast, I almost qualify as a fanatic, Because you are new to the black powder world I can only recommend you start by:

Read, Read, Read, and follow the firearms manufacturer's owners manual!!!

Black powder firearms are not nor will they ever be modern day cartridge guns!!! Do Not load black powder firearms in such a manner in an attempt to get modern day cartridge firearm ballistics!!! It will never happen Safely!!!

What I can say is a 50 cal only requires 60 to 100 grains of loose powder. More than that in typical short barrel guns excess unburnt powder creates excess fowling and is blown/shot out the barrel wasting powder. Accuracy is independent to Your firearm!

Try both 2F and 3F powders in both BP and BP substitute powder. Some firearms prefer true BP, some prefer substitute, some don't care which type powder you use, however you may need to vary up or down grains to achieve the same accuracy: ie shooting a hunting load of 90 grains of real BP with a 325 grain Buffalo bullet may require 100 grains of BP substitute to be accurate at 100 yards or 90 grains BP substitute and 100 grains real BP. It also depends on whether your firearm likes 2F or 3F. Does your firearm prefer 2F substitute powder and 3F real BP or visa versa.

Depending on Your type of shooting and Your rifle: for target practice on paper targets and small game hunting using a .010-.015 patch and .490 or .495 lead round ball with typically 60-70 grains of 2F (FF) or 3F (FFF) powder is all that is needed. For big game generally 75-100 grains of powder

For big game hunting using lead conical hollow base or flat base mini and maxi ball (bullets), buffalo bullets and sabots generally 80-100 grains of powder is all that is needed. However modern day online rifles shooting .44 and .45 cal sabots up to130-150 grains of powder can be used providing Your rifle manufacturer has proofed the barrel up to that max powder charge.

Muzzleloading is an art and like the Africa hunting bug can become very addictive.

As a long time active member in the NMLRA If you or anyone is really interested in muzzle loading and black powder shooting check out NMLRA.org (Nation Muzzle Loading Rifle Association). Also with this years shooting season starting I invite you and everyone interested in muzzle loading to visit any of the NMLRA shooting matches and events and/or to visit any of the NMLRA charter clubs near you to learn more and/or share your knowledge on muzzleloading/black powder shooting.

 

[Ridge Runner]

BP and BP substitutes go by volume not weight. Aside that, when I used Triple Seven, I used Triple Seven primers. There's a body of data that advises against using standard shotgun primers.

BP and BP substitutes are measured by volume and not weight is a misconception.

The weight to or versas volume is tricky when it comes to muzzle loading firearms.

All muzzleloaders need an incremental powder measurer to properly start measuring the amount of powder charge.

Once an accurate powder charge has been developed then if desired a specific fixed measurer can be used.

Example:
A BP shooter has a 60 to 120 grain powder measure.

During range practice the shooter finds that 70 grains measured by volume is the most accurate powder charge.

Notes:
1. Powder Measures Are Not precise, only general, measuring devices!
2. You won't always get the same volume charge each time.
3. Regardless of projectile you use they do not weigh the same, ask any reloader.
4. The only difference between muzzle loading and cartridge firearms reloading is no brass cartridge. Cartridge firearms ammo is not measured by volume but by powder weight.

For hunting and general target practice the science pretty much stops when the most accurate powder charge and projectile is found by the shooter. For competition shooting the science continues.

To insure you will have a consistent accurate charge requires an accurate powder scale, paper, and pen/pencil. Pour 3-5 (or more if you like) charges one at a time weighing each charge separately and writing each weight down. ADD the weights divide by number of charges poured and you have the average charge weight. Using the above example a measured volume of 70 grains is the most accurate load. The average weight should be around 70 grains. If the average weight is considerably higher or lower pour a weighted charge of powder into the powder measure then carefully adjust the measurer up or down till the powder is flush to the top of the measurer then mark the numerated adjustment bar.

This will provide a closer to the same grain weight each time, as if you were to weigh out 70 grains of powder using the powder scale. Or when pouring each charge into a separate vile or into speed loaders.

Note also that not all powder measurers are the same there are a variety of powder measurers made from a variety of materials to include measuring tips for use on flasks and cans, variables in how the shooter pours the charge into the measurer and down the barrel, weather, type powder, powder manufacturer, inadvertently taping the side of the measurer while pouring powder into it, etc, that can affect an accurate charge measure.

Irrelevant to the OP's wanted information, but necessary to mention measured volume vs measured weight relevance.

Using a BP shotgun is a completely different type of critter. Because now the weight by volume of shot has to be factored in, as well as number by size of buckshot. Use of: shot cups, type and thickness number of over powder card(s), thickness of felt or plastic wads, type and thickness of over shot card(s).

The powder charge has to be sufficient to push the load out of the barrel with enough velocity to effectively bust clay targets, penetrate paper targets, or kill birds or other animals.

Example:
12 gauge BP shotgun
Most commonly used starting load 1:1

Set the powder measure to 60 grains of powder, 1each 1/2 inch over powder card, 60 grains volume shot, 1 each 1/32 inch over shot card.

Here the load is around 60 weighted grains of powder with a 60 volume weight of shot.

From here the shooter can experiment by increasing the powder charge, using a variety thickness felt wads, size shot cups, over powder cards, etc. until they get the desired optimum shot pattern.

 

[fourfive8]

Ah hah muzzleloader rookie who draws a Colorado elk license!! Good info on legal arms already posted. I would consider a good aperture rear sight and a rifle capable of shooting conicals accurately enough to be deadly on elk sized lethal zone up to about 100 yards. Stretching the barrel of muzzleloader elk is not a good idea. Hunt close, shoot straight, shoot once. That's the name of the game. I would also not look past real BP. It is a good, reliable propellant. Treat your rifle well by cleaning regularly and correctly after each range day. Respect the necessity for loading into a clean, dry gun- no residue, water, oil, solvent, etc. inside the barrel/chamber or flash channel for 1st shot for hunting. Sight in accordingly. Denatured alcohol is your fiend and good insurance. Pay attention to details and you won't be blessed with any failures to fire.

Experience is the best teacher. Start at low recommended loads. Work up slowly. Muzzleloaders do not respond well to high pressure or high vel. More, more, more becomes self defeating quickly and can yield erratic ballistics and poor accuracy. A lot or range time and experimentation is usually required to master shooting muzzleloaders effectively. good luck