Nitro for Black: which available powders?

[analog_peninsula]

I know 4198 and 5744 are the most tested and commonly recommended, but both seem to be unobtanium these days. What’s the best way to look for safe alternatives, and what else have you found to work? This would be for full sized BPE cartridges, the .450 in my specific case.

 

[rookhawk]

IMR3031 as a proxy for cordite at a few fewer grains than the original ICI / Kynoch 1921/1926 stated numbers. Obviously with a wad to hold back the powder and using a thin jacketed soft bullet from woodleigh. (which was traditionally of a lighter weight than the NE version)

 

[Flbt]

I know 4198 and 5744 are the most tested and commonly recommended, but both seem to be unobtanium these days. What’s the best way to look for safe alternatives, and what else have you found to work? This would be for full sized BPE cartridges, the .450 in my specific case.

I am not a reloader.
So I am asking more than suggesting.
What about trail boss? It’s supposed to be light.
It’s the only thing I would consider loading with if I Tryed.
They say you cant get enough power in the case to get in trouble with.
I don’t know.

 

[rookhawk]

I am not a reloader.
So I am asking more than suggesting.
What about trail boss? It’s supposed to be light.
It’s the only thing I would consider loading with if I Tryed.
They say you cant get enough power in the case to get in trouble with.
I don’t know.

Your questions are exactly the recommendations an expert Reloader that knows nothing of double rifles would recommend. Those recommendations could cause injury to gun or shooter.

We have a particular recoil impulse, burn rate, and pressure curve that the original rifle was designed to endure. The original nitro-for-black load would have been stranded cordite. The closest thing we have to that powder in current production is IMR3031 and there is a conversion (don’t quote me, i think its 1.02:1 ratio) The only problem with it is that it will not come close to filling the case, thus you must use a wad to hold the powder against the primer for consistent ignition.

If it were me, I would not rely solely on pressure and try variety of powders, I would try to create a load that mimics the original behavior of stranded cordite nitro-for-black loads. This is what Ross Seyfried or Ken Owen would recommend. It has to be safe, it has to mimic original properties, and it has to regulate correctly…not easy to accomplish.

I’ve owned a 500 Nitro-For-Black and this was how my loads were developed.

 

[93marlin]

Your questions are exactly the recommendations an expert Reloader that knows nothing of double rifles would recommend. Those recommendations could cause injury to gun or shooter.

We have a particular recoil impulse, burn rate, and pressure curve that the original rifle was designed to endure. The original nitro-for-black load would have been stranded cordite. The closest thing we have to that powder in current production is IMR3031 and there is a conversion (don’t quote me, i think its 1.02:1 ratio) The only problem with it is that it will not come close to filling the case, thus you must use a wad to hold the powder against the primer for consistent ignition.

If it were me, I would not rely solely on pressure and try variety of powders, I would try to create a load that mimics the original behavior of stranded cordite nitro-for-black loads. This is what Ross Seyfried or Ken Owen would recommend. It has to be safe, it has to mimic original properties, and it has to regulate correctly…not easy to accomplish.

I’ve owned a 500 Nitro-For-Black and this was how my loads were developed.

What @rookhawk said!!
The man knows his stuff!!

 

[Flbt]

Your questions are exactly the recommendations an expert Reloader that knows nothing of double rifles would recommend. Those recommendations could cause injury to gun or shooter.

We have a particular recoil impulse, burn rate, and pressure curve that the original rifle was designed to endure. The original nitro-for-black load would have been stranded cordite. The closest thing we have to that powder in current production is IMR3031 and there is a conversion (don’t quote me, i think its 1.02:1 ratio) The only problem with it is that it will not come close to filling the case, thus you must use a wad to hold the powder against the primer for consistent ignition.

If it were me, I would not rely solely on pressure and try variety of powders, I would try to create a load that mimics the original behavior of stranded cordite nitro-for-black loads. This is what Ross Seyfried or Ken Owen would recommend. It has to be safe, it has to mimic original properties, and it has to regulate correctly…not easy to accomplish.

I’ve owned a 500 Nitro-For-Black and this was how my loads were developed.

Oh ok thinks
Me being a dyslexic I want deal with any numbers I could get mixed up
Thats why I said if I ever tried

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Trail boss is mainly for reduced loads, and it has a nasty little secret in that if you stuff as much in the case as you can and compress it, it can detonate and cause you injury or death and worse, damage the firearm
Gumpy

 

[analog_peninsula]

It sounds like you are suggesting trying powders with burn rates clustered around 5744 and imr 4198 with appropriate caution. Does that sound like a reasonable approach?

 

[Flbt]

Trail boss is mainly for reduced loads, and it has a nasty little secret in that if you stuff as much in the case as you can and compress it, it can detonate and cause you injury or death and worse, damage the firearm
Gumpy

I am glad you said that.
That stoped my interest in reloading completely
I was thinking it might be ok to use that powder in a lee loader for 44 and 45-70
But not if it goes boom.
I was thinking it might be ok because I could not really see numbers wrong with it

Seriously thinks

 

[1dirthawker]

i believe graham wrights book has some recommendations for a variety of calibers.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

I am glad you said that.
That stoped my interest in reloading completely
I was thinking it might be ok to use that powder in a lee loader for 44 and 45-70
But not if it goes boom.
I was thinking it might be ok because I could not really see numbers wrong with it

Seriously thinks

It only happens when you compress it, and not every time, which is why some people get away with it for ages , till they don’t.
Gumpy

 

[grand veneur]

i believe graham wrights book has some recommendations for a variety of calibers.

Graham Wright recommends for the cartridge 450 BPE in his books several loads with various powders, but I don't know all of them. IMR 3031 seems also to me to be the best suited for replicating old Cordite loads and accordingly Nitro for Black loads. I use VECTAN TUBAL 3000, a powder very similar to IMR 3031, to copy old Cordite loads.

 

[fourfive8]

I see Trailboss recommended a lot for reduced loads attempting to substitute for real black powder. Yikes! No, no and hell no! Just because it has extremely low bulk density does not mean it is suitable for applications that attempt to replicate black powder internal ballistics. Its burn rate is comparable to extremely fast powders like Bullseye and Red Dot which are among the fastest smokeless powders. Those pushing that envelope get away with it until they don’t. The potential chemical energy stored in nitro smokeless powders cannot be compared to energy levels stored in black powder,

Old, out of production 4759 and current 5744 come closest for attempting to use reduced smokeless loads to replicate black powder ballistics BUT no smokeless powder I know of truly duplicates the pressure curve and internal ballistics of black powder.

True black powder substitute examples like Pyrodex, Triple Seven, Blackhorn 209, etc currently come the closest. However. some black powder substitutes like Pyrodex are extremely corrosive and hygroscopic, even more so that real black powder, so require due diligence for storage and gun care after use.

 

[fourfive8]

I have loaded Trailboss powder in quite a few different cartridges. It’s extremely low density (it has one of the highest volume per mass ratios of any powder) creates somewhat of a safety margin that can help prevent double charges. But that doesn’t mean it is automatically suitable for low pressure or BP substitute applications. It is simply a very fast smokeless powder of low density. I found it to be especially useful for low velocity cast bullet loads in cartridges with a very high expansion ratio. It is my go to powder for cast 45 Colt, 45 ACP, 44-40, 38-40 and 38 Special loads in guns that are suitable for smokeless loads.

 

[analog_peninsula]

The 4th edition of Graham Wright’s book is now on the way. I also downloaded the spring 2004 edition of the Double Gun Journal where Sherman Bell has an extensive discussion of chamber pressure in Nitro for Black loads.

 

[AZDAVE]

When you are talking Nitro for black loads you are looking at mostly 90% double rifles and 10% single shots. @rookhawk stated it perfectly.

The current trend with 5744 and trail boss loads apply to the US buffalo era rifles (45/70-120 and 50/70-140 kinda rounds) these powder are designed to provide good ignition without a full case and no fillers and loads SHOULD ALWAYS COME FROM A REPUTABLE LOADING MANUAL!!!! When ever folks since the dawn of smokeless powder have the Idea of hold my beer and watch this shit, with reloading they keep the shallow end of the gene pool a little less full.

These powders in my opinion should never be mentioned in any conversation with nitro for black loads.