No frills double

[mgstucson]

A 9.3x74R is a fine caliber but not exactly a "classic" African round. It isn't even legal for dangerous game in a number of places in Africa which I assume is the intended use of the OP's eventual rifle. It was and still is a popular European caliber for driven boar. red stag, and Nordic moose.

Unless one's liability insurance is substantial, I don't believe I would recommend rechambering a .375 Winchester anything to 375 H&H flanged. The 375 W has a case length of 2.05 inches and a .375 flanged is nearly a full half inch longer. So much chamber metal would have to be removed to have potentially created a hand grenade inches from one's face. I can't imagine how thin that shoulder would mike.

You certainly make a lot of ASSUMPTIONS. We all know how that ends. I am an old man and have found assumptions in general to be a pursuit of dubious utilitarian value, and an absolutely deplorable social habit.

1. You assume the OP wants another DG caliber when he already states he owns medium bore and big bore DG rifles, and wants a double rifle to "complement", not replace, those. You assume a lot more than that.

2. You assume I am recommending 9.3x74R to the OP. I just stated that is the choice I made and they make other calibers in the same rifle, which I also mentioned. I was recommending consideration of a brand and type on rifle, not caliber.

3. You assume your opinion of "classic" African rounds is valid or even germane. BTW 9.3x74R has been in use constantly for over 100 years IN AFRICA in German colonies, and predates the 9.3x62 and other 9.3's which have also been in service IN AFRICA for over 100 years. What criteria do you use for "classic"? 9.3's have probably been used 1000 percent more than the 416 Rigby over the last 100 years IN AFRICA, on game dangerous and otherwise. Does that make the 9.3x74R 10 times more "classic" than the 416 Rigby?

4. You assume the 375 Win barrel taper was cut in close tolerance to the chamber and might therefore be unsafe in longer cartridge, or that I was somehow unaware of cartridge lengths or safety issues when considering firearms modification.

5. You assume I didn't have a competent gunsmith, with decades of experience specifically on double rifles, doing the work who checked safety issues and crucial measurements first, as any competent gunsmith would.

The one true FACT you stated was in your final sentence, "I can't imagine ...". I would remind you that the endless volumes of things you cannot imagine are where your assumptions come from. I have endless volumes of things I cannot imagine as well, as we all do. I just don't go around responding to other people based on those things. Good luck with that.

 

[ftrovato]

A Heym 88B PH model is about as “no frills” as it gets. They are hard to find but come up from time to time. They will probably run you in the high teens to low twentys used. They can accept RMRs and you can get the correct mount from Chris Sells with Heym USA for about $160.

View attachment 677524

Dont hold your breath on a mount from Chris Sells!

I sent him money 2 years ago and still have not gotten a mount for my 89B.

Nor have I gotten my money back.

 

[Rare Breed]

You certainly make a lot of ASSUMPTIONS. We all know how that ends. I am an old man and have found assumptions in general to be a pursuit of dubious utilitarian value, and an absolutely deplorable social habit.

1. You assume the OP wants another DG caliber when he already states he owns medium bore and big bore DG rifles, and wants a double rifle to "complement", not replace, those. You assume a lot more than that.

2. You assume I am recommending 9.3x74R to the OP. I just stated that is the choice I made and they make other calibers in the same rifle, which I also mentioned. I was recommending consideration of a brand and type on rifle, not caliber.

3. You assume your opinion of "classic" African rounds is valid or even germane. BTW 9.3x74R has been in use constantly for over 100 years IN AFRICA in German colonies, and predates the 9.3x62 and other 9.3's which have also been in service IN AFRICA for over 100 years. What criteria do you use for "classic"? 9.3's have probably been used 1000 percent more than the 416 Rigby over the last 100 years IN AFRICA, on game dangerous and otherwise. Does that make the 9.3x74R 10 times more "classic" than the 416 Rigby?

4. You assume the 375 Win barrel taper was cut in close tolerance to the chamber and might therefore be unsafe in longer cartridge, or that I was somehow unaware of cartridge lengths or safety issues when considering firearms modification.

5. You assume I didn't have a competent gunsmith, with decades of experience specifically on double rifles, doing the work who checked safety issues and crucial measurements first, as any competent gunsmith would.

The one true FACT you stated was in your final sentence, "I can't imagine ...". I would remind you that the endless volumes of things you cannot imagine are where your assumptions come from. I have endless volumes of things I cannot imagine as well, as we all do. I just don't go around responding to other people based on those things. Good luck with that.

While I hear your points and @redleg does not need to be defended he never posts unless he is trying to help someone…he has always given me good advice

 

[SoVa]

@Red Leg and @mgstucson I certainly appreciate the input from both of you. You both present valid points, for clarification I will add that my expectation was that the double rifle be a step up in power over the Lott but after looking at some of the options I’m not sure that many offer a notable increase.

I am quite frankly reconsidering my interest in a double gun at this point and of all I have looked at thus far the Sabatti has my interest the most.

 

[Raven]

.458 Lott will do about the same as .470 NE. And it won't be too far behind the .500 NЕ.

It turns out that you need something like .577 NE. Or even 600 NE. But such weapons are more expensive.

 

[mgstucson]

@SoVa, Thanks for the clarification. I also have a 375 H&H and a 458 Lott, but I did buy a couple double rifles that basically duplicate ballistics or are less powerful than what I already own. At under $1000, I figured it was hard to go wrong. I just want to hunt Africa with a double rifle for the experience. Nothing wrong with that. GB has doubles all the time. I am sure if you watch there, you will find something that checks all your boxes, if you don't change your mind. Good Luck.

@Rare Breed, Thanks, its all good. He was just a little condescending even if well intended, probably unintentional.

What Raven said.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

I am simple about things. I'm sure there is a reason that I don't understand but I have a question.

Why in the hell are double barreled rifles so expensive ?. No moving parts. It seems to me that is a single action rifle (the cheapest action made) with an extra barrel on top (or bottom). I can't get over how expensive they are. A single shot firearm is the cheapest you can buy. Add a barrel and it is the most expensive you can buy. I've never understood why.

Anyone can buy a world class performing semi auto shotgun (rifle too) for around $1,500. Some a lot less.

Can anyone explain why there isn't an affordable double rifle made today that is more affordable? I'm talking the same price as an entry level (respectable) bolt action, say $1,000?

I will pay for performance. Nostalgia? not so much.

I'm sure there is a reason that I don't know.

 

[mgstucson]

I am simple about things. I'm sure there is a reason that I don't understand but I have a question.

Why in the hell are double barreled rifles so expensive ?. No moving parts. It seems to me that is a single action rifle (the cheapest action made) with an extra barrel on top (or bottom). I can't get over how expensive they are. A single shot firearm is the cheapest you can buy. Add a barrel and it is the most expensive you can buy. I've never understood why.

Anyone can buy a world class performing semi auto shotgun (rifle too) for around $1,500. Some a lot less.

Can anyone explain why there isn't an affordable double rifle made today that is more affordable? I'm talking the same price as an entry level (respectable) bolt action, say $1,000?

I will pay for performance. Nostalgia? not so much.

I'm sure there is a reason that I don't know.

I am simple in the same way.

 

[Tom Leoni]

Hi @Stormy Kromer - what makes them expensive is mostly the hand-regulation of the two barrels. It involves shooting, heating up, tweaking, letting the soldering cool, shooting again… often x30+ times.

If you google “double rifle regulation” you’ll get a sense of how involved, specialized, and time consuming the process is.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

Hi @Stormy Kromer - what makes them expensive is mostly the hand-regulation of the two barrels. It involves shooting, heating up, tweaking, letting the soldering cool, shooting again… often x30+ times.

If you google “double rifle regulation” you’ll get a sense of how involved, specialized, and time consuming the process is.

Thank you. I know there is a reason, I just don't understand why.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

I am simple about things. I'm sure there is a reason that I don't understand but I have a question.

Why in the hell are double barreled rifles so expensive ?. No moving parts. It seems to me that is a single action rifle (the cheapest action made) with an extra barrel on top (or bottom). I can't get over how expensive they are. A single shot firearm is the cheapest you can buy. Add a barrel and it is the most expensive you can buy. I've never understood why.

Anyone can buy a world class performing semi auto shotgun (rifle too) for around $1,500. Some a lot less.

Can anyone explain why there isn't an affordable double rifle made today that is more affordable? I'm talking the same price as an entry level (respectable) bolt action, say $1,000?

I will pay for performance. Nostalgia? not so much.

I'm sure there is a reason that I don't know.

A double rifle is two separate locks and barrels mounted together in a common stock. That means separate triggers!

Those locks in a fine double rifle have intercepting sears to prevent double firing during the high recoil of dangerous game cartridges.

The double rifle should handle like a side by side shotgun, much like a short barreled duck gun, as uncommon as that is. Or better yet, like an upland grouse gun, only heavier but with similar "movement of inertia" qualities.

Finally, the double rifle’s barrels must be regulated so that bullets from specific loads must strike the target at certain range within a small group. Ideally this would be parallel to infinity but more practically the projectiles from the separate barrels will intersect at the selected range. For elephant, that is pretty close. Grouping within 3” at 50 meters or yards is not uncommon. My Heym will group 4" at 100 yards off the sticks, when I do my part! My Blaser S2 is much more accurate!

A fine double is a work of functional art much like a Corvette or European sports car. Why do those cost over $100,000? Drive one and you will only wonder how they made such a lovely machine!

PS: @Tom Leoni beat me to this...

 

[Stormy Kromer]

I appreciate the answers Thank you. I knew there was a reason or the free enterprise system would have came up with an alternative by now.

I'm just glad I grew up with a bolt action and can operate it very quickly. I also like the four round advantage a bolt offers.

Not saying I wouldn't like a big caliber double. I'm not stupid. Hell, I wrote my High School term paper on Elmer Keith's writings. I wish I could have been there too.

 

[franzfmdavis]

Dont hold your breath on a mount from Chris Sells!

I sent him money 2 years ago and still have not gotten a mount for my 89B.

Nor have I gotten my money back.

That’s unfortunate!

My experience was quite the opposite. When I called him, he answered the phone. We talked for a while about what I wanted and he said he had some of the mounts I was looking for with him as he was driving to SCI. I was going there a few days later so I met him at his booth, paid him the money got the mount. He was very gracious and accommodating in my experience.

 

[Datchew]

following with interest. A double is an occasional amusing thought to me that is slowly manifesting into a legitimate "want." I'm trying to ward it off as best i can but alas.

I'm in the oddball camp in that I like over under doubles. Is the OP solely interested in side by side?

 

[Rare Breed]

@SoVa, Thanks for the clarification. I also have a 375 H&H and a 458 Lott, but I did buy a couple double rifles that basically duplicate ballistics or are less powerful than what I already own. At under $1000, I figured it was hard to go wrong. I just want to hunt Africa with a double rifle for the experience. Nothing wrong with that. GB has doubles all the time. I am sure if you watch there, you will find something that checks all your boxes, if you don't change your mind. Good Luck.

@Rare Breed, Thanks, its all good. He was just a little condescending even if well intended, probably unintentional.

What Raven said.

Completely understand you wanting to hunt Africa with a DR…I bought 8 DRs because I have the same passion!!! Wishing you great hunts and experiences in Africa!!!

 

[Rare Breed]

A double rifle is two separate locks and barrels mounted together in a common stock. That means separate triggers!

Those locks in a fine double rifle have intercepting sears to prevent double firing during the high recoil of dangerous game cartridges.

The double rifle should handle like a side by side shotgun, much like a short barreled duck gun, as uncommon as that is. Or better yet, like an upland grouse gun, only heavier but with similar "movement of inertia" qualities.

Finally, the double rifle’s barrels must be regulated so that bullets from specific loads must strike the target at certain range within a small group. Ideally this would be parallel to infinity but more practically the projectiles from the separate barrels will intersect at the selected range. For elephant, that is pretty close. Grouping within 3” at 50 meters or yards is not uncommon. My Heym will group 4" at 100 yards off the sticks, when I do my part! My Blaser S2 is much more accurate!

A fine double is a work of functional art much like a Corvette or European sports car. Why do those cost over $100,000? Drive one and you will only wonder how they made such a lovely machine!

PS: @Tom Leoni beat me to this...

Sounds like poetry to me my friend!!!

 

[Moody808]

following with interest. A double is an occasional amusing thought to me that is slowly manifesting into a legitimate "want." I'm trying to ward it off as best i can but alas.

I'm in the oddball camp in that I like over under doubles. Is the OP solely interested in side by side?

Well you are fortunate in your desires as they are far more affordable!

 

[ftrovato]

That’s unfortunate!

My experience was quite the opposite. When I called him, he answered the phone. We talked for a while about what I wanted and he said he had some of the mounts I was looking for with him as he was driving to SCI. I was going there a few days later so I met him at his booth, paid him the money got the mount. He was very gracious and accommodating in my experience.

Good for you. I’m still waiting.

Several others on this site have had my experience.

Maybe if he was good enough of a business man to refund me I wouldn’t be scorned.

I take ever opportunity to worn others now. Don’t like being scammed.

 

[franzfmdavis]

Good for you. I’m still waiting.

Several others on this site have had my experience.

Maybe if he was good enough of a business man to refund me I wouldn’t be scorned.

I take ever opportunity to worn others now. Don’t like being scammed.

If you happened to have put it on a credit card just file a dispute and get your money back. Even though its old you can say you had prepaid for it and expected it when it came available.